Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[DrTesla]

Then begone troll. i banish thee to my ignore list. There's no point in trying to converse with someone whose only arguments are cut from another web site and who lies about what evidence they know.

the rock analysis was all my own. I overanalyzed it on purpose to expose the absurdity of it all.

I thought my little physics lesson was pretty good. if there was a way to establish some kind of minimum velocity of impact for the 10 lb rock to shatter the glass then you probably could work your way back using Newton's law of motion to calculate how far away from the house he needed to be be, the angle of the throw, and the velocity of his throw, but there are probably two many unknowns and too few equations. it's been a long time since I have solved for these types of variables in standard projectile motion problems. if somehow you were able to get some numbers for these variables then maybe you could survey the yard to see if the constraints of the yard and the house could have allowed for the distance, velocity and throwing angle that you calculated and if not then it wasn't done and we could rule out the rock throw from the outside. actually, you probably would just assume a throwing velocity, like 100 mph for Rudy, 3 mph for wimpy Raffe, that seems reasonable based on what a human could do, so then you could determine the angle of the throw and the distance thrown.

I think it's better to resolve big picture problems first before getting down on the weeds on stuff like could the 10 lb rock have been thrown up there and broken the window. first we need to establish anybody even climbed up there b/c it doesn't matter if the rock was thrown from the outside if nobody ever made the climb up to and thru the window.

 

[Kaosium]

there is no evidence that the rock came from the outside, please review my previous posts in which I talked about no glass being found on the ground outside and the glass on the windowsill did not move pass the boundary of the external shutters when in the closed or mostly closed position, which coincides with Filo's testimony that she closed them most of the way before she left.

Regarding glass on the ground, there's little reason there should be all that much, and being as they made it their smoking area and never photographed that area there's no reason to think there wasn't glass there. As for the shutters it struck me as obvious Rudy would have closed those behind him as best he could after entering.

It would seem to me to be stupid to break the window from the outside, in the sense that you can't have anybody see you doing that if the whole idea is to stage it so that Rudy did it. they be putting themselves at a huge risk of having multiple witnesses see them throw a rock at the window (which if you think about it, and I have, is why Rudy also would not have thrown a rock at this window) so, they must have smashed in from the inside.

So you think it would be better to break the window and then run downstairs and out the door where anyone alerted by the noise of the rock might see you, as opposed to throwing the rock and then slipping off into the foliage there where no one could ever see you clearly because they'd never have time to respond?

 

[anglolawyer]

'Excruciating' is the right word.

Micheli thought there were multiple attackers because Nara heard the footsteps of more than one person running away after she heard the scream. But we know Nara did not hear Meredith scream a) because she couldn't have and b) because she was dead by 9.30 p.m.

I can't be bothered to post all of it but the forensic experts in Massei agreed there was no problem with a single attacker. Massei's reasoning includes this gem:

it is impossible to imagine in what way a single person could have removed the clothes that Meredith was wearing (shoes, pants and underwear), and using the violence revealed by the vaginal swab, could have caused the resulting bruises and wounds recalled above, as well as removing her sweatshirt, pulling up her shirt, forcing the bra hooks before tearing and cutting the bra.

Impossible? There are two ways (at least). In the first, you threaten the victim and tell them to take off their clothes. They comply. This cannot have happened here, except maybe with the lower garments (but I don't think so). The second way is to render her defenceless by stabbing her in the throat before removing the clothes. We know this did happen due to the blood pattern on her outer garment, bra and breasts.

Ron Hendry has described the assault in detail over at IIP if anyone wants to check it out (cue the usual ad hominems against him in lieu of argument).

 

[DrTesla]

Impossible? There are two ways (at least). In the first, you threaten the victim and tell them to take off their clothes. They comply. This cannot have happened here, except maybe with the lower garments (but I don't think so). The second way is to render her defenceless by stabbing her in the throat before removing the clothes. We know this did happen due to the blood pattern on her outer garment, bra and breasts.

your first way is based on the same faulty logic that Knox and Raffe had when they planned the whole thing, that Knox would submit to the rape when they brandished the knives. obviously the victim had other ideas about that which is probably a reason it spiraled out of control although the intent may have been to kill her from the start anyway. seems like you would to kill your roommate if she knew you were there trying to force her to have sex with rudy. maybe they were wearing ski masks like in Knox's practical joke idea in Seatttle that thankfully never came to fruition and the victim didn't know it was them although she probably would have suspected it.

the victim's body had 43 wounds and almost none defensive wounds which clearly indicates she was pinned down. she had bruises on her elbows consistent with somebody restraining her from behind and since it was clear she was also attacked from the front (one of the defense experts testified she was attacked from the front, but another defense expert she was attacked from the back, both in the lone wolf scenario) there must have at least been two people. you throw in two different knives used and it is cased closed. people only have so many hands and this woman isn't goig to let you rape and cut her without a fight cuz she had to know her situation was grim.

 

[Kaosium]

You've not posted one thing that contradicts, factually, the info on that website. it's true i'm not an expert on dna or forensics but his arguments make sense. you are feel to post things that prove his arguments are wrong, and people can decide for themselves. I've only seen you post that he's wrong but you strike me as being more of an advocate for Knox than really looking at the science and logic of the various aspects of this case. I mean, you guys were protesting the fact that Luminol is more sensitive to blood than TMB, and I basically just let you hang yourself if that's what you want to do in the name of Knox. that should be easily confirmed elsewhere by anybody with an open mind about the science.

Yes, they could be, and they'd find out that you don't even understand what's being contended. Lemme try it this way: give me a very basic scenario of how you think those luminol hits got there. If you think they're (all) footprints you don't have to go step by step, just a very basic explanation.

I did not pre-conclude that Knox is guilty and then try to retrofit the facts to meet that conclusion no matter how illogical. some of you guys clearly have done this in deciding Knox is innocent first and then trying to make the evidence work out in her favor no matter how silly.

Actually no. You just found a website with a bunch of information you automatically assumed was true because there were people that believed it. It happens, ever heard of PJ Salinger, or for that matter Dan Rather?

 

[Dan O.]

'Excruciating' is the right word.

Micheli thought there were multiple attackers because Nara heard the footsteps of more than one person running away after she heard the scream. But we know Nara did not hear Meredith scream a) because she couldn't have and b) because she was dead by 9.30 p.m.

I can't be bothered to post all of it but the forensic experts in Massei agreed there was no problem with a single attacker. Massei's reasoning includes this gem:

it is impossible to imagine in what way a single person could have removed the clothes that Meredith was wearing (shoes, pants and underwear), and using the violence revealed by the vaginal swab, could have caused the resulting bruises and wounds recalled above, as well as removing her sweatshirt, pulling up her shirt, forcing the bra hooks before tearing and cutting the bra.

The bit about brushing and removing the bra reminded me about something I wanted to find more info on. The bra is coming off as Rudy tries to drag Meredith to the center of the room. This dragging would not be accomplished by pulling on the bra alone but requires Rudy to get a second handhold on Meredith. The logical place to grab would be the inside right thigh.

This bit is in Massei:

There were bruises present at thigh level that might have indicated an action of grasping;

Is there somewhere in the records we have that gives more details on the location of this bruising?

If Rudy had an accomplice, the easier points to grab would have been the wrists and ankles. But bruising was not found there.

 

[anglolawyer]

43 wounds inflicted by a single attacker. Impossible. Or is it?

The prosecution case was that Tabak had strangled Yeates at her flat within minutes of her arrival home on 17 December 2010,[102] using "sufficient force" to kill her.[1] The trial was told that Tabak – around 1 foot (0.30 m) taller than Yeates – had used his height and build to overpower her, pinning her to the floor by the wrists, and that she had suffered 43 separate injuries to her head, neck, torso and arms during the struggle.[1][103] Injuries included cuts and bruises, and a fractured nose.[103] Lickley told the court that the struggle was lengthy, and her death would have been slow and painful.

 

[DrTesla]

43 wounds inflicted by a single attacker. Impossible. Or is it?

have you ever notice how often you end up arguing that the improbable is possible and even likely over and over again on various aspects of the Knox case?

you end up having a Knox-like Bathmat Boogie Shuffle explanation for every point that is raised that people consider as showing her guilt. there never is a simple explanation for anything that seems curious in the Knox case. you guys are doing a good job given the fact she hasn't given you anything to work with.

if I was this babe's parents, I would have to cut the umbilical cord b/c it's not worth the stress and basically giving up your own life and freedom to be a slave to pushing the dumb notion that somehow she's innocent despite not one thing pointing to her innocence. this is the most crushing case that I've seen against any defendant in a murder trial yet people are really claiming there's absolutely no evidence against her. i do think this case is almost historic in that way.

 

[Kaosium]

have you ever notice how often you end up arguing that the improbable is possible and even likely over and over again on various aspects of the Knox case?

You have it backwards, in every virtually instance the prosecution argued the improbable as opposed to the probable.

Think about how when they found out their first arrests were based mainly on an irrelevant coincidence (Amanda and Patrick exchanging texts) and then found utterly no evidence of any of the three at the scene but found plenty of a burglar who'd fled the country they still tried to pretend the break-in was staged.

How stupid is that?

you end up having a Knox-like Bathmat Boogie Shuffle explanation for every point that is raised that people consider as showing her guilt. there never is a simple explanation for anything that seems curious in the Knox case. you guys are doing a good job given the fact she hasn't given you anything to work with.

The bathmat boogie explains nothing, remove it and there's no need to address anything. It just happens it was how Amanda traversed the few yards to her room when she found out her towel was missing because Rudy Guede had grabbed it the night before.

 

[Grinder]

To tell the truth, I haven't seen any photos showing rock damage to the outside shutter

Though maybe it's time to revisit the window photos again now that we have copies of the originals. There may be some details that were missed looking at the compressed clippings.

Although sometimes the target of your short temper with people that haven't done the work you have, I admire the work you have and will be doing.

I have always wondered why anyone would pick a ten pound rock, either a burglar or a stager. What would be great to know is the weight of the rock used to smash the window at the lawyers' offices.

One thing I agree with Barbie about is that the defense lawyers did a crappy job in the first trial.

Thanks again for your work.

 

[anglolawyer]

Although sometimes the target of your short temper with people that haven't done the work you have, I admire the work you have and will be doing.

I have always wondered why anyone would pick a ten pound rock, either a burglar or a stager. What would be great to know is the weight of the rock used to smash the window at the lawyers' offices.

One thing I agree with Barbie about is that the defense lawyers did a crappy job in the first trial.
Thanks again for your work.

Yes, you and Randy both. I respectfully demur. They had an impossible job in front of a kangaroo court composed of brain dead numbskulls. They were going to lose whatever they did. The only concrete point of criticism I have heard is they didn't think about the disco buses and I would want to know a heck of a lot more about that before I criticised them for it, including how much they were being paid.

 

[Grinder]

You and Grinder clearly haven't been following. The rock was thrown, or swung, from the inside against the open left pane thus making the dent in the open white shutter behind it. When it is pointed out that this doesn't explain the glass sprayed far into the room - crickets. Unintelligent, intellectually dishonest, ill-informed. Take your pick.

The solution is easy enough, they just haven't thought of it. Amanda, in her bare feet, spread the glass out herself to make it look like the rock had been thrown from outside, making sure that the smaller pieces travelled furthest, but she wasn't that smart. She forgot to chuck a few pieces out the window to satisfy all the engineers who think there should be glass there.

I'm sick of these attacks .

If the rock were thrown from the inside with the shutters closed, which held the glass from falling outside, then how would the outside shutter not be damaged extensively? If the rock were slung as you describe Sir Anglo, then why would anyone expect glass to fall outside? Oh that's what your saying .

So for the staging the window would have to be swung open and the rock thrown against the inner shutter leaving the dent on the inner shutter, but then all the rest of the evidence doesn't fit, drat.

The rock was thrown from the outside whether it was a real break-in or a staged event. I do think the ten pound rock makes another argument that Raf or Amanda didn't do the staging, if that's what it was.

 

[anglolawyer]

I'm sick of these attacks .

If the rock were thrown from the inside with the shutters closed, which held the glass from falling outside, then how would the outside shutter not be damaged extensively? If the rock were slung as you describe Sir Anglo, then why would anyone expect glass to fall outside? Oh that's what your saying .

So for the staging the window would have to be swung open and the rock thrown against the inner shutter leaving the dent on the inner shutter, but then all the rest of the evidence doesn't fit, drat.

The rock was thrown from the outside whether it was a real break-in or a staged event. I do think the ten pound rock makes another argument that Raf or Amanda didn't do the staging, if that's what it was.

Yes. Sorry to be oblique. An Olympic shot weighs 16 lbs and the current world record is about 23 metres. Metres, not feet. Even I could chuck a ten pound rock through that window and either from the car park area or from down below. The photo of the lawyer makes it look much higher than it is because of the steep down slope. Stand on the slope to the right of the window and it's an easy overarm, especially for a basketball player.

Thrown from outside. Period. Take it from there.

ETA and once it's accepted the rock was thrown from outside it gets slightly harder to hypothesise a staging because one of them has to remain inside or return inside to pluck glass out of the frame and place it on the sill and close the shutters, to simulate a burglar doing all those things. Possible but not therefore probable.

ETFA and the stager must close the inner shutter to get the dent in it. Mustn't forget that. And this extremely careful and punctilious stager must also select the wrong window, according to those who want to argue that. She was clever. She was dumb. She was clever ...

 

[Grinder]

Yes, you and Randy both. I respectfully demur. They had an impossible job in front of a kangaroo court composed of brain dead numbskulls. They were going to lose whatever they did. The only concrete point of criticism I have heard is they didn't think about the disco buses and I would want to know a heck of a lot more about that before I criticised them for it, including how much they were being paid.

Why don't sharks attack lawyers? Professional courtesy

They had two years to prepare. TOD wasn't dealt with well. They didn't do a sound test from Nara's. They demurred from taking the chance of accusing the police of bad behavior during the interrogation putting themselves ahead of the client. They didn't find Curatolo's drug history. They may have missed some deadlines, although the court shouldn't have prevented their requests.

I don't think you were following the case back then. I can't list all the things missed but I'm sure others here can add to the list.

ETA - How much they were paid? Biscotti and the other lawyer did a bang up job for Rudi and weren't paid much at all. This was a case to make one's bones on. Besides we all know that it was multiple million dollar defense.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

An experiment decided this question

The rock was thrown from the outside whether it was a real break-in or a staged event. I do think the ten pound rock makes another argument that Raf or Amanda didn't do the staging, if that's what it was.

Agreed, and I don't see the point of discussing it further with anyone unless he or she directly addresses Sgt. Pasquali's demonstration, showing that the spray of glass was consistent with this and inconsistent with a person's breaking the glass while standing in the room. The data are the data.

 

[tsig]

That wasn't true, the poll Tsig was referring to was in May of '10, and less than 50% of respondents thought them guilty despite the verdict six months before.

Before the acquittal almost 70% voted that they would be acquitted.

Thanks for the link, here's the full results.


Innocent 22 18.18%
Guilty 59 48.76%
Hung Jury 2 1.65%
Don't know, Don't care 28 23.14%
planet X has no crime 10 8.26%
Voters: 121. This poll is closed

 

[anglolawyer]

Why don't sharks attack lawyers? Professional courtesy

They had two years to prepare. TOD wasn't dealt with well. They didn't do a sound test from Nara's. They demurred from taking the chance of accusing the police of bad behavior during the interrogation putting themselves ahead of the client. They didn't find Curatolo's drug history. They may have missed some deadlines, although the court shouldn't have prevented their requests.

I don't think you were following the case back then. I can't list all the things missed but I'm sure others here can add to the list.

ETA - How much they were paid? Biscotti and the other lawyer did a bang up job for Rudi and weren't paid much at all. This was a case to make one's bones on. Besides we all know that it was multiple million dollar defense.

True I was not following in the time you refer to. Still I would want to know more, probably more than can be known. Where would they 'find' Curatolo's drug history (assuming what you say is right)? That info would be with whom? The cops, right? So what is being suggested, that they didn't bother to ask for his priors? Checking Massei quickly I can find no reference to Curatolo's history so you might be able to chalk that one up. I still don't think you realise what's involved in something like this. It's big man, like big. Y'know what I mean?

Biscotti had a much easier and less expensive case than the other defence lawyers. This case would have required a monumental effort. Law firms don't run on fresh air. There are bills to pay, other cases to work on and many, many pressures.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm sick of these attacks .

If the rock were thrown from the inside with the shutters closed, which held the glass from falling outside, then how would the outside shutter not be damaged extensively? If the rock were slung as you describe Sir Anglo, then why would anyone expect glass to fall outside? Oh that's what your saying .

So for the staging the window would have to be swung open and the rock thrown against the inner shutter leaving the dent on the inner shutter, but then all the rest of the evidence doesn't fit, drat.

The rock was thrown from the outside whether it was a real break-in or a staged event. I do think the ten pound rock makes another argument that Raf or Amanda didn't do the staging, if that's what it was.

Just curious, as I understand it you think Rudy broke the window but as it just so happened that Meredith came home and he was able to surprise her at the door or something, thus didn't have to climb in the window?

I don't really care all that much, but what seems a convincing indication to me is the (relative) lack of glass shards on the bottom frame of the window and then the shards piled up on the ledge there, like someone would naturally if they wanted to go into that window, then perhaps realized it would be easier to undo the latch. They strike me as unlikely to have assumed that position solely due to chance.

At any rate the shards looking like they might have been put there to go along with Halides1 cryptic reference to samples 198 and 199, got me to thinking there was evidence someone probably did go through that window frame, and another curiosity about the forensics done is how uninterested they were in the those samples he mentioned, not having tested them properly until four months after the murder. Here's how they're listed in the translation of the forensic report:

Exhibits and biological traces found in the bedroom of Filomena ROMANELLI (report of investigation, exhibits and seizures, prepared by Gabinetto Provinciale of the Scientific Police of Perugia, dated 11/05/2007

Rep.198 – Hair formation found between the lower cornice of the left window shutter having the broken glass, indicated in the evidence photographs with the letter “R”, (report of the evidence described carried out by the Gabinetto Provinciale of Forensic Police of Perugia) – page 172 A.F./239 R.;

Rep.199 – Sample of presumed blood substance taken of the portion of the wood of the window having the broken glass, indicated in the evidence photographs by the letter “S”,
(report of the evidence described carried out by the Gabinetto Provinciale of the Forensic Police of Perugia) – page 172 A.F./239 R.;


I'm not sure why Halides1 noted them before he had to go, but isn't it curious there wasn't much interest in finding LT/LCN DNA on these samples when they went to that extreme in both the murder room and that unlikely knife?

 

[Grinder]

Personally I think that a poll that asked whether the ILE had proven guilt beyond a reasonable doubt would be more interesting.

1. Not even close
2. No
3. Maybe
4 Barely
5. Absolutely
6. Is that a requirement?

 

[Kaosium]

Thanks for the link, here's the full results.


Innocent 22 18.18%
Guilty 59 48.76%
Hung Jury 2 1.65%
Don't know, Don't care 28 23.14%
planet X has no crime 10 8.26%
Voters: 121. This poll is closed

Indeed, it appears even after the first verdict most knew better than to jump to a conclusion of guilt regarding something they knew little about.