Why is there so much crackpot physics?

No he didn't and you know it, he knows it, and everybody knows it.
Well, I do not know it, and I have a strong feeling that nobody else but you around here know it, so "everybody" may really just be you.

Not a scrap of counter argument or counter evidence, just the usual naysayer waffle.
And you certainly did not present any arguments either, so this was just the usual crackpot waffle. You should try to get some respectability by not living up to the stereotype.

OK then, referring to QED, explain how pair production works.
OK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_production. That was easy.
 
Gamma-gamma pair production, Steen.

ctamblyn said:
Photons don't move around in circles in pair production, if that's what you mean.

Seriously. Just produce the evidence that they do, and we can all get round to lobbying the Nobel committee.
Oh do stop trying to throw up distractions.

Come on now, let's have your "explanation" of gamma-gamma pair production.

I'm waiting.
 
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Electrons are electrons. Positrons are positrons. Photons are photons. And all the above is hard scientific evidence that we can make electrons and positrons out of photons. How do you think that happens edd? Do you think the photons just pop out of existence and the electron and positrons pop into existence? Like magic?
Yep.

Particle physics does not have to act the way you think is common sense.
 
OK then, let's hear your explanation of gamma-gamma pair production.

The Dirac equation describes four quantum fields representing the four states of any fermion (electron+ spin up,e + spin down, e- spin up, e- spin down). When you write the Dirac equation and include U(1) gauge invariance, it unavoidably includes four more fields representing the electromagnetic 4-potential, and a coupling between the electromagnetic fields and the fermion fields. The particular form of the coupling says that certain nonlinearities in the A-field (including, for example, the A field created by two colliding photons) couple to the simultaneous excitation of two fermion fields---one of the + type and one of the - type.

(This, including all the details---full differential cross sections for any energy, any polarization, etc.---is derived from the U(1) gauge invariance with no additional assumptions. The same equation, i.e. the same U(1) gauge-invariant Dirac equation, also happens to predict Maxwell's Equations---all of them, including all the constants---with no additional free parameters.)

Your turn.

What's your explanation of para-positronium annihilation? e+ e- --> three gammas. In an unpolarized e+ e- beam this happens about 1% of the time. Show where the 3rd gamma comes from and predict all the relevant cross sections, using whatever-the-hell your theory is.
 
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Gamma-gamma pair production, Steen.
Right: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron-positron_annihilation. Argument by Wikipedia is sometimes frighteningly easy!

Why would anything in this article contradict conventional physics?

ETA:

What's your explanation of para-positronium annihilation? e+ e- --> three gammas. In an unpolarized e+ e- beam this happens about 1% of the time. Show where the 3rd gamma comes from and predict all the relevant cross sections, using whatever-the-hell your theory is.
This is going to be fun!
 
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Oh do stop trying to throw up distractions.

Just nipping in quickly to remark upon the, frankly, hilarious notion that to ask for a demonstration of utility is to "throw up distractions".

As ought to be obvious, hard scientific evidence for or against a theory is only possible if that theory makes predictions. If, as appears to be the case, Relativity+ is just a bunch of loosely-related, vague musings and incoherent drivel about stuff, and is incapable of making quantitative predictions, well, you know what they say.

And now I really must be off for the evening.

ETA: Couldn't resist. Here's a video of Feynman explaining how magnets work. It's a real classic. Notice how he understands the difference between a pseudo-explanation and a real one. It's about 7 and a half minutes long:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO0r930Sn_8
 
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ctamblyn said:
...And now I really must be off for the evening...
And ct does a runner. We'll have your "explanation" of gamma-gamma pair production tomorrow, won't we?

Farsight said:
Electrons are electrons. Positrons are positrons. Photons are photons. And all the above is hard scientific evidence that we can make electrons and positrons out of photons. How do you think that happens edd? Do you think the photons just pop out of existence and the electron and positrons pop into existence? Like magic?
Yep.
It may have escaped your notice, edd, but magic isn't science. And it may also have escaped your notice that this is a skeptics forum. Skeptics don't believe in magic. So maybe you'd feel more at home here.

Farsight said:
Gamma-gamma pair production, Steen.
Right: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron-positron_annihilation. Argument by Wikipedia is sometimes frighteningly easy!
Try again, Steen. Gamma-gamma pair production isn't annihilation.

ben m said:
The Dirac equation describes four quantum fields representing the four states of any fermion (electron+ spin up,e + spin down, e- spin up, e- spin down). When you write the Dirac equation and include U(1) gauge invariance, it unavoidably includes four more fields representing the electromagnetic 4-potential, and a coupling between the electromagnetic fields and the fermion fields. The particular form of the coupling says that certain nonlinearities in the A-field (including, for example, the A field created by two colliding photons) couple to the simultaneous excitation of two fermion fields---one of the + type and one of the - type.

(This, including all the details---full differential cross sections for any energy, any polarization, etc.---is derived from the U(1) gauge invariance with no additional assumptions.)

Your turn.

What's your explanation of para-positronium annihilation? e+ e- --> three gammas. In an unpolarized e+ e- beam this happens about 1% of the time. Show where the 3rd gamma comes from and predict all the relevant cross sections, using whatever-the-hell your theory is.
No, your turn first. You've already ducked the hard scientific evidence I gave. So moving on from that, you give the QED explanation of how gamma-gamma pair production works. You're starting with two photons. You haven't got any fermions yet. Come on, off you go.
 
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Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_production
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_magnetic_dipole_moment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein–de_Haas_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_diffraction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_orbital
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron–positron_annihilation

You can make an electron (and a positron) out of light in pair production, it's got a magnetic moment so something's going round and spin angular momentum is demonstrably of the same nature as classical angular momentum. You can diffract the electron, in atomic orbitals electrons exist as standing waves, and when you annihilate the electron with the positron you've got light again. So what do you think the electron is made of? Mathematics? Magic? Cheese? Now where's Perpetual Student's overwhelming contradictory evidence? My oh my, he seems to have done a runner. Keeping a low profile and hoping somebody else is going to bale him out. Ain't gonna happen!

Sigh...Well OK, I'll elevate my profile a bit.
The above is a stereotypical crackpot argument by multiple links. Can you give us some idea as to how all the above links support your notion that an electron is a photon in some kind of a loop?
The fact that "You can make an electron (and a positron) out of light in pair production" (as you say again and again) is not evidence that an electron is a trapped photon any more than a photon is a trapped electron. Note that you can make photons out of an electron and a positron -- but it does not follow that a photon is a trapped electron.
Learn a little QFT and see for yourself how the mathematics describes the creation and annihilation of bosons and fermions. If you were to make the effort to learn even a little real physics, you would not be so gullible about this simplistic notion of yours.
As to your comments about Newton and energy -- good grief -- don't you know anything about the historical development and context of thermodynamics and relativity? Newton's dabbling an alchemy has absolutely no bearing on particle physics and/or E = mc2. Get a grip man!
 
It seems I just can't stay away. But when comedy gold like this happens...

ben m said:
The Dirac equation describes four quantum fields representing the four states of any fermion (electron+ spin up,e + spin down, e- spin up, e- spin down). When you write the Dirac equation and include U(1) gauge invariance, it unavoidably includes four more fields representing the electromagnetic 4-potential, and a coupling between the electromagnetic fields and the fermion fields. The particular form of the coupling says that certain nonlinearities in the A-field (including, for example, the A field created by two colliding photons) couple to the simultaneous excitation of two fermion fields---one of the + type and one of the - type.

(This, including all the details---full differential cross sections for any energy, any polarization, etc.---is derived from the U(1) gauge invariance with no additional assumptions.)

Your turn.

What's your explanation of para-positronium annihilation? e+ e- --> three gammas. In an unpolarized e+ e- beam this happens about 1% of the time. Show where the 3rd gamma comes from and predict all the relevant cross sections, using whatever-the-hell your theory is.

No, your turn first. You've already ducked the hard scientific evidence I gave. So moving on from that, you give the QED explanation of how gamma-gamma pair production works. You're starting with two photons. You haven't got any fermions yet. Come on, off you go.

I'm sure that most, maybe all people reading this can see that ben m provided the very thing you asked for, in the very post you replied to.

So, yes, it's your turn now. While you're at it, let's see Relativity+ produce a prediction for the Lamb shift, as requested earlier. You asked what QED had to say about atomic orbitals, I gave you a historically important QED prediction which has been confirmed by experiment. What does Relativity+ say? You've had, what, the best part of a decade to work through these elementary tests of your theory? I'm sure it's just a case of copy/pasting from your notes.

The ability (or inability) to produce the goods is what decides whether, as is unlikely, these ideas of yours are capable of standing up as a scientific theory, or whether, as is almost certainly the case, Relativity+ is in fact a loosely-bound collection of unscientific, useless and foggy notions branded with a presumptuous-sounding title.

Incidentally, back to a slightly earlier point, I'd actually enjoy the opportunity to post a simplified view of pair production to see what people here make of it. It's quite an interesting challenge, a non-trivial one at that (for me, at least). It will definitely have to wait, though, as I have real life to attend to. Until tomorrow...
 
No, your turn first. You've already ducked the hard scientific evidence I gave. So moving on from that, you give the QED explanation of how gamma-gamma pair production works. You're starting with two photons. You haven't got any fermions yet. Come on, off you go.

Fermion-antifermion pairs are created by exciting the fermion field. They didn't exist a moment ago, now they exist. That's what field theory is all about.

It's not spycraft. You're not trying to follow some little agent around, keeping track of him as he transforms from Disguise A (photon) to Disguise B (electron) and Disguise C (electron with a hat and mustache). It's physics.

Here's a classical field theory analogy for Farsight's "e made of photons" statement. You have some calm air and a calm ocean. Along comes a gust of wind. Suddenly the ocean isn't calm any more, but rather has a wave-train moving across it. Farsight, sitting on the beach, gets hit by a breaker and the gentle remains of a gust. "Clearly we've just seen the reaction (gust A ---> gust B + wave)", he says. "Therefore we conclude that the gust A had an ocean wave stored up inside it, probably wrapped up in a toroid, which it released." A physicist objects. "No; waves can be created or destroyed. They're just excitations. Here's a century's worth of textbooks explaining it mathematically." Farsight laughs. "Ha ha! What a joke. Nonsense. You can't explain where the wave came from, if it wasn't stored inside gust A? Next."
 
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Oh, magic.

This is just too much. We have a theory that makes quantitative predictions. In fact, we have a theory that makes quantitative predictions that are accurate to a greater degree than any other theory in the history of science, and you don't like it because you don't like the mechanism.

That's not how science works Farsight. The theory made predictions. Experimentalists tested those predictions quantitatively. For decades. Experimental results agree with the theoretical predictions.

You can call that magic if you want. I call it science.
 
Too bad the evidence is just a bump on a graph, and that the Higgs mechanism is said to be responsible for 1% of the mass of matter, and that the Higgs boson gets its mass from the kinetic energy given to the protons because E=mc².
Too bad that you cannot understand that the evidence for the Higgs particle is a bump on several graphs - just like the evidence for the existence of the electron :eek:!

Too bad that you cannot understand that the Higgs mechanism is expected to give 1% of the mass of the matter (the rest is basically binding energy).

Too bad that you end the sentence with gibberish :eye-poppi and ignorance as is the rest of your post, Farsight.
 
Oh groan.
Read what I cited: Pair production
Pair production refers to the creation of an elementary particle and its antiparticle, usually when a photon (or another neutral boson) interacts with a nucleus. For example an electron and its antiparticle, the positron, may be created.
We cannot make an electron and a positron out of two photons in gamma-gamma pair production.
Pair production makes an electron and a positron out of one photon and a nucleus.

Collisions of 2 ultra-violet, X ray, and even gamma ray photons is a different mechanism. They can also create electron/positron pairs. In fact many nuclear processes produce electron/positron pairs.
 
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OK, I'll post this now rather than wait until tomorrow, as my interlocutor is so eager.

If I had to explain the mechanics behind pair production without assuming too much mathematical ability or knowledge of physics, I think I'd try the following. Before continuing, though, I will emphasise that this is nothing more than a very crude analogy, and that it assumes you know what (classical) fields are.

Let's see how it goes.

To start with, imagine there are two fields, let's call them the A field and the B field, which permeate all of spacetime. These two fields contain excitations which we call A and B particles, somewhat like (but also rather unlike) ripples propagating on a lake, or vibrations through the interior of a very large, springy mattress. If you like, you can picture the fields as being either scalars or vectors at each point in spacetime. In fact it's a little more complicated than that, particularly in the case of fermions, but it doesn't matter for now.

Now, suppose the two fields are coupled. This means that at each point, each field is locally, somewhat weakly linked to the other. Thus, at any given point an excitation in one field can "tug" on the other field at the same point, and, if it tugs in the right way, actually produce new excitations in the other. (If you like, imagine two magically interleaved mattresses with soft springs coupling them at regular intervals. However, macroscopic analogies can be misleading so don't take the picture too seriously.)

With this set-up, it may be that you could start with excitations in the A-field, and have them interact in just the right way to transfer all their energy to the B-field:
A-particles ---> B-particles.​
If so, then the reverse process must also be possible:
B-particles ---> A-particles.​
There may also be more complex interactions, with mixtures of As and Bs on each side. If you know the precise nature of the fields and the coupling between them (and in QED, for example, we do), you can figure out every possible outcome of making a bunch of A and B particles interact, in exquisite detail, and calculate the chances for each outcome to occur to as much precision as you please.

In ridiculously simple terms, that is how processes involving annihilation and creation of particles work. Energy in one field (say, the electron/positron field) is transferred into another (say, the photon field) via their coupling. From the experimenter's point of view, particles of one type go in and particles of another type come out.

The mechanics described in outline above not only underpin the γγ --> e+e- process you originally asked about, but also all the other QED processes. Vague though it is (of necessity, given the deliberate avoidance of mathematics), the same basic picture works for Compton scattering, electron-positron annihilation, and bremsstrahlung. It also works for Møller scattering and Bhabha scattering. Perhaps, if your imagination is good, it also gives you an idea of why an electron is surrounded by a cloud of virtual particles (a constant, noisy dance of energy between fields), and hence why things like vacuum polarisation occur. It also applies beyond QED, to the electroweak theory and strong interactions, and indeed QFTs in general. It's not all bad, as analogies go.

On the minus side, of course this analogy is imprecise and qualitative. It also has the horrible defect of obscuring the great naturalness of QED to which ben m alluded earlier. It turns out, for instance, that the electron/positron field is described by one of the simplest possible models that can realistically represent a "matter" particle (i.e. one that obeys the Pauli exclusion principle). It also turns out the photon field must exist and couple to the electron/positron in the way it does, once you demand that the electron/positron field has a certain very natural internal symmetry. The analogy also spectacularly fails to explain the quantised nature of the fields - excitations at a given frequency come in discrete amounts, unlike with classical fields, giving rise to their particle-like nature.

However, to really understand, you need to go beyond the type of explanation I've struggled to formulate above. You have to study QFT properly. It's as simple and as difficult as that.
 
Farsight, Please explain how 2 photons produce differently charged particles

OK then, let's hear your explanation of gamma-gamma pair production.
Farsight, you are one asserting that photon-photon collisions producing electron/positron pairs (the Breit-Wheeler process) is explained by your theory. N.B. This is not pair production since there are two photons involved.
It is up to you to produce the full explanation (including the math!).

The irrelevant demand to see the standard explanation is a tactic we see from cranks all of the time so that the can hide the fact that their delusions are useless.
If the crank is answered they are usually too ignorant to understand the answer or just deny it. They usually then go off the rails entirely and claim their ignorance means that their delusion is correct because the standard science is wrong (the logical fallacy of false dichotomy).

That the Breit-Wheeler process means that electrons are photons in torsional paths is easily shown to be a delusion: How do these 2 photons produce particles with different charges?

However Farsight, you may have an answer to:
Farsight, How do 2 photons in the Breit-Wheeler process produce particles with different charges?
First asked 21 May 2012 - 0 days and counting.

According to the fantasy you are supporting, a photon can magically convert into an electron. But there is no mention of a photon magically converting into a positron as far as I recall.
Of course you can just drew imaginary, unphysical lines and get a positron :D!

Why does the Breit-Wheeler process not produce 2 electrons?
Why does the Breit-Wheeler process not produce 2 positrons?
 
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Okay, guys - help me out here. I've been trying to follow this argument, armed only with a partial 25-year-out-of-date 1st year knowledge of nuclear physics (supplemented by what I needed to know to run a decontamination team).

I've read the article on Pair Production. I understand it to say that it describes the situation where a photon collides with a nucleus to produce an electron and positron. There are conditions to this:
  • the photon has to be a high energy one, otherwise there won't be enough energy to convert to mass to create the pair of particles
  • it won't work if there's not a nucleus involved, otherwise the momentum of the photon won't be absorbed and this apparently breaks the rules re conservation of energy or something
  • it always results in the creation of equal and opposite particles, otherwise it breaks the rules.

Okay, if I've got the above right, what does it mean to the arguments being made here?

Maybe I've missed a trick somewhere, but I can't see a model that allows for electrons being made up pf photons (or is it the other way around?) - and I can't follow the connection between this and Pair Production.

Please use small words... :o
 
Gamma-gamma pair production, Steen.
Gamma-gamma pair production dies not exist, Farsight. Pair production is the production of a pair of particles from 1 photon.
The Breit-Wheeler process is what you are thinking of - the collision of photons producing pairs of particles.

It would be pretty much a waste of time explaining it to you until you understand that these are 2 different things :eye-poppi!
 
Okay, guys - help me out here.
...
Please use small words... :o
The first problem is the Farsight essentially made up his own meaning for the term "gamma-gamma pair production".
The "pair production" part implies the actual pair production that he has been obsessed abut in other threads (thus the pair production answers).
The entire term means the production of pairs of gamma rays.

What he is actually talking about is the Breit-Wheeler process which is the collision of photons in high intensity laser beams than produce electron/positron pairs.

There is no connection between this process or pair production and Farsight's model which is the Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology? paper which came up over 3 years ago and is fundamentally flawed. This was explained to Farsight in the Relativity+ / Farsight's thread, e.g. OK, I've read the Williamson and van der Mark
paper again. (they should have got a charge of zero for an electron).
Farsight has been blindly denying the science for over three years now :jaw-dropp!

The paper mentions pair production. The authors and Farsight have no real mechanism where a toroidal topology magically appears and traps a photon. They do draw pretty pictures though!

The first problem with the model is above - it predicts that an electron has no charge. So we can shop there!
The next problem is that their pair production does not need a nucleus and so does not conserve momentum. In fact the paper does not mention the need to interact with a nucleus to conserve momentum at all.
And if we ignore that problem then we have pair production happening spontaneously whenever there are photons with enough energy. This is not observed.
 
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The first problem is the Farsight essentially made up his own meaning for the term "gamma-gamma pair production".
The "pair production" part implies the actual pair production that he has been obsessed abut in other threads (thus the pair production answers).
The entire term means the production of pairs of gamma rays.

What he is actually talking about is the Breit-Wheeler process which is the collision of photons in high intensity laser beams than produce electron/positron pairs.

There is no connection between this process or pair production and Farsight's model which is the Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology? paper which came up over 3 years ago and is fundamentally flawed. This was explained to Farsight in the Relativity+ / Farsight's thread, e.g. OK, I've read the Williamson and van der Mark
paper again. (they should have got a charge of zero for an electron).
Farsight has been blindly denying the science for over three years now :jaw-dropp!

The paper mentions pair production. The authors and Farsight have no real mechanism where a toroidal topology magically appears and traps a photon. They do draw pretty pictures though!

The first problem with the model is above - it predicts that an electron has no charge. So we can shop there!
The next problem is that their pair production does not need a nucleus and so does not conserve momentum. In fact the paper does not mention the need to interact with a nucleus to conserve momentum at all.
And if we ignore that problem then we have pair production happening spontaneously whenever there are photons with enough energy. This is not observed.

I have a very limited knowledge of physics. But I think what I highlighted is something everyone with a high school education can grasp. If an electron is a loopy photon, where does it get its charge? Photons don't have a charge of their own.

I have tried to find a satisfactory answer among Farsight's posts, but that only made me slightly angry. So that's indeed where I shop. I mean stop. ;)
 

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