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Evolution: the Facts.

.....I am also saying there are no fossil intermediates fish to woman. So until then, it's open season on that theory .

Possibly the silliest, most childish and ignorant thing I have ever seen written on the Jref Forum. I had to read it 10 times to work out whether it was written in seriousness, or was being ironic.

There are countless thousands of fossils making an virtually continuous record of the progress from fish to human, and, given that this has taken millions of years, wouldn't it be a bit ridiculous to expect to have seen it happen in a human lifetime?

Mike
 
I am also saying there are no fossil intermediates fish to woman. So until then, it's open season on that theory .

It's always open season on every scientific theory. That's how science works.

All you have to do is come up with another theory that explains the natural world better, given the evidence.
 
You are wrong. Arguing against conventional evolution right or wrong is mostly about arguing science. It is very much not CT oriented, nothing like it. You believe it or not based on the facts as presented. Ever see a fish turn into a person? Ever see fossil intermediates fish to people? I am not saying I do or don't believe here. This makes me dizzy. But I am saying I have never seen a fish turn into a woman. I am also saying there are no fossil intermediates fish to woman. So until then, it's open season on that theory .

I have never seen the rib of a man turned into a woman, or dust turned into man. But I don't think those are valid reasons to reject Creationism. The lack of any evidence to support all creation myths that I'm aware of, is what leads me to repudiate them. In contrast, the case for the theory of evolution has been progressively strengthened since Darwin's time by the fossil record, comparative anatomy, geographic distribution of species, genetics, and biochemistry. There has been no scientific finding that proves TOE wrong.

In case you are sincerely interested in knowing about ''fish turn into a person''; I recommend reading Your Inner Fish, written by Neil Shubin, one of the discoverers of tiktaalik. In a pleasant,easy to read prose Shubin describes how the bone structures needed in land dwelling vertebrates were already present in that early transitional fossil. In other chapters Shubin describes our anatomic and histological relationship to other earlier species.
 
You are wrong. Arguing against conventional evolution right or wrong is mostly about arguing science. It is very much not CT oriented, nothing like it. You believe it or not based on the facts as presented. Ever see a fish turn into a person? Ever see fossil intermediates fish to people? I am not saying I do or don't believe here. This makes me dizzy. But I am saying I have never seen a fish turn into a woman. I am also saying there are no fossil intermediates fish to woman. So until then, it's open season on that theory .

You're wrong. Creationists come in two varieties: those who have been fooled and who haven't looked at the data, and those who know better but lie to folks. Neither gives a rat's tale about the data--the former because they generally aren't that interested in the scientific issues, and the latter because they're defrauding their followers. Then there's the Wedge Document. There IS a conspiracy going on--a group of people lying to us in order to advance a specific agenda.

As for evolution, if you think that it involves fish turning into humans, you don't understand the theory. You quite literally may as well say that since your grandfather doesn't turn into your child, they therefore are not related. Our ancestors--incredibly distant ancestors--were fish. Through an absolutely mind-shattering length of time subsequent generations adapted to numerous conditions, and one branch of those became terrestrial vertebrates. More time, more variation, more branches, and one became mammals. Then more time, more variation, more branches, and one became humans. These aren't simply assumed; we have a tremendous fossil record recording these changes. Any textbook on vertebrate paleontology will outline this for you (and it's only an outline--the actual literature is orders of magnitude larger than even the largest textbook you can get).

Also, I HAVE seen the intermediate fossils. The Smithsonian has some, as does the natural history museum in Milan. The fish that became tetrapod vertebrates are quite famous in my profession. There was a rather serious revision of our assumptions about evolution regarding the number of digits on limbs, and I believe it was Acanthostega that demonstrated that five was not the maximum number of digits. Those are intermediate between fish and reptiles. Then the repptiles gave rise to the mammal-like reptiles, such as the gorgons (see Peter Ward's book by the same name). After the K/Pg impact mammals exploded, and innumerable fossils from "shrew-like thing" to "human" have been found, including an astonishing number of fossils in the human group (considering the environs in which these critters lived, ANY fossils are astonishing, and we have so many that some believe we actually have fossils from within the speciation events!).

They exist; you just have to look. And by "look" I don't mean that you need to go to a museum. This is an incredibly rich and well-established field of science, pulling from physics, engineering, biology, geology, some astronomy, oceanography, chemistry, meteorology, and numerous other fields. Oh, and the skills to survive in some rather nasty environments (fossils don't generally outcrop in places people like to live--though the Los Angeles Basin is a notable exception). I was recently reminded that skills such as being able to identify poisonous snakes and do a 100-meter dash at speeds that would make some track and field folks jealous (while hip-deep in water) are rather essential. Freaking cottonmouths...

Even if we didn't have transitional forms for humans, we have them for other animals. Gould found a surprising number of intermediate forms in gastropods and mollusks. I've got a brother-in-law that's found intermediate forms in conodonts (formS, meaning multiple). And I myself have found an intermediate for within Decapoda. And what's REALLY damning to your argument is these excited no comment from the paleontological community. I was told that my work was solid, but nothing that would make me famous because that's what everyone is doing. Feldman found a LOT more intermediate forms of decapods, if anyone's interested--enough that he could figure out the geography of their evolution. Then there's the issues with horse evolution; Eric Scott out of the San Bernardino natural history museum is still sort of the expert on that. If you want verts, I recommend "Tertiary Mammals of North America" and "The Dinosauria"; both offer a large number of intermediate forms in their respective taxa. For a case study I recommend Bison antiquis--they're currently debating exactly what happened to them, with one serious proposal (one I'm rather fond of) is that B. antiquis evolved wholesale into the modern bison. Even if you disagree, though, the debate is certainly worth reading given the question about intermediate forms (it's something of a key issue here).

I don't know enough about paleobotony to comment. My paleobotanical studies have been restricted to Neotoma middens in the Quaternary, where most transition was in the form of range extenssions/contractions, rather than speciation. But what I know of palanology indicates that animals may not be the best place to look for transitional forms--plants may be superior, just understudied. But again, that's just a tentative inclination, not a conclusion; if someone could provide some information on that I for one would appreciate it.

You are correct in one respect: it IS open-season on evolution. The theory is constantly under fire, constantly under revision. In fact, it's never been closed season; science has attacked the theory of evolution pretty much since the start, and some of the best minds in history (and some that make Sheldon Cooper look downright normal) have stood opposed to evolution as we knokw it. The issue is, you need to learn at least one sub-field in order to mount a serious criticism--or at the very least you must understand what the theory states. "Ever see a fish turn into a person?" is a gross mischaracterization of the theory. Learn what the theory actually is before you attempt to criticize it. Otherwise you make your side look bad.
 
Evolution is what caused us to once have been single celled organisms, and now to be humans. Thank GOD for that ;)
 
Evolution is what caused us to once have been single celled organisms, and now to be humans. Thank GOD for that ;)

Nice try at levity. I'm afraid that I do automatically rebel against the horribly, horribly obviously misleading parts of that statement and thus find no actual humor there, though.
 
Misleading my ass :)

Really now? "We" were never single celled organisms. Our incredibly, incredibly, incredibly distant ancestors likely were, but your phrasing implies a sudden transition. Furthermore, the changing in how generalized the subject is, mid-sentence, with no qualifiers, leaves it as something that invites conflation. That was followed up by an intentionally inflammatory attribution of the reason for this to an undefined entity of dubious veracity and power that could technically be taken in a different way than very strongly implied.

In short, it's misleading, as I said.
 
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Really now? "We" were never single celled organisms. Our incredibly, incredibly, incredibly distant ancestors likely were, but your phrasing implies a sudden transition. Furthermore, the changing in how generalized the subject is, mid-sentence, with no qualifiers, leaves it as something that invites conflation. That was followed up by an intentionally inflammatory attribution of the reason for this to an undefined entity of dubious veracity and power that could technically be taken in a different way than very strongly implied.

In short, it's misleading, as I said.

I am a type of single celled organism. Which is what caused my immortality I believe. I guess I might be wrong, but so far it sticks. Getting shot in the head should have worked at least. Or the airplane I hit when I was flying in the skies over New York. Of course, my anecdotal evidence might be flawed, but I know a few people who agree. And the number of people that agree is growing each year. Especially those Mormons are willing to believe in my experience.
 
kblood said:
I am a type of single celled organism.
You can be called a bacterial colloney with delusions of grandure, but you are not a single-celled organism.

Which is what caused my immortality
You are also not immortal. Only jellyfish can claim that. Surviving a gunshot wound to the head isn't actually that impressive--zombie movies aside, many head-wounds aren't fatal (many are, however, so do not attempt to prove me wrong!). Even brain wounds aren't necessarily fatal. There are many ways to damage the brain without killing the person, many of which serve as foundational case-studies for neuropsychology. If you think a bullet is impressive, you should see the guy who survived a metal pipe shoved through his skull.

And Mormons aren't very credible. Their entire religion was founded by a known fraud out to swindle people, after all.
 
There was a rather serious revision of our assumptions about evolution regarding the number of digits on limbs, and I believe it was Acanthostega that demonstrated that five was not the maximum number of digits. .

This fish have five.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...dfish-species-fish-ziebells_20880_600x450.jpg

new-handfish-species-fish-spotted_20879_600x450.jpg


new-handfish-species-pink_20881_600x450.jpg
 
This fish have five.

The issue wasn't so much that nothing had 5 digits at the distal end of the limbs, but rather that there were a number of different numbers of digits at the ends of the limbs, sometimes even within the same organism. Some had 5 digits, yes, but some had 7 or 3 or whatever. I'm pretty sure Acanthostega had 7 digits on the front limbs and fewer on the back. We currently have five fingers more or less due to chance.
 
None of our ancestors were "single celled organisms". That's what the evidence currently indicates. (unfortunately for the atheists) The observed time span does not allow for the development of that degree of complexity with the required intricate interplay in the time it was accomplished. Carl Woese has already shown that none of the three domains (Craig Venter says four) are not descendents of any of the others, and the changes required by prokaryotes involved additions, deletions, fusions and divisions of chromosomes. Those were done way too effecientlt and accurately in way too short a time for spontaneity to be a reasonable explanation. There is however another set of persons, both inside and outside the scientific community, who are proposing facilitated or accelerated evolution.
 

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