Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[DrTesla]

from my favorite website:

Expert Testimony on Multiple Attackers

Dr Lalli and Dr Liviero testified that "the nature of the bruises and multiple wounds caused by several different methods -- suffocation, strangulation and stabbing -- led them to deduce Kercher was attacked by more than one person.[6] Dr Liviero stated "There were more hands involved"[7] which is basically what it comes down to. Rudy as a single attacker does not have sufficent hands to do all the required tasks. A single attacker needs one hand to wield the knife which just leaves a single hand to restrain Meredith and there is no way to restrain someone who is upright with just one hand. The cuts from both sides is also very difficult to explain with a single attacker.

Two defence experts testified that they saw no evidence that more than one attacker was involved although both these experts declined to examine the victim's body.[8] Declining to examine the body and instead working from pictures is a strategy that defence experts use to give them more room to interpret evidence in a favourable light to the defence without actually lying.[9] There is no other reason to work from pictures rather than from examining the body. The defence experts also disagreed on how the murder happened. Dr. Introna testified that the murder could only have happened from behind. Dr. Torre testified that the attack could only have happened from the front.[10] Dr. Torre was questioned about the lack of defensive wounds and while he agreed that normally for an attack like this you'd expect considerably greater defensive wounds that the lack of defensive wounds was not something he felt needed addressing.[11]

 

[bri1]

bri,

good post,

although I disagree with your assertion that source of authority arguments are good ones and that its is normal for somebody not involved with the trial or on the jury to spend hours and hours looking at crime scene photos, or to visit the accused in prison. as bit of an amateur psychologist myself, this reeks of a man suffering from the white knight syndrome and wanting to save the damsel in distress because only he can see she's really a good person.

but it is nice to see somebody go to bat for their friend even when they know their friend is wrong.

I think that i'm pretty intelligent myself....I have a degree in mechanical engineering and they don't usually hand those out to fools. if you want to make this some kind of pissing content then let's do that.

i'd rather people just talk about the evidence and leave their occupations out of it.

Re: my 'assertion' about arguments from authority. I actually offered an argument, not an assertion. You did not provide a rebuttal. Therefore, for the purposes of our debate I am right.
Re: you're a bit of an amateur psychologist yourself. Hmmm. You dismissed Saul Kassin's work as 'bubblegum' when here's some of his career highlights (from Wikipedia):
1984, Kassin was awarded the U.S. Supreme Court Judicial Fellowship and worked at the Federal Judicial Center in Washington, DC.
1985, worked as a postdoctoral fellow at Stanford University in their Psychology and Law Program.
"Kassin went on to author several textbooks used at colleges and universities today such as Psychology, Essentials of Psychology, Developmental Social Psychology, The Psychology of Evidence and Trial Procedure, and The American Jury on Trial. He co-author the textbook Social Psychology with Dr. Steven Fein and Dr. Hazel Rose Markus.
Dr. Kassin is a Fellow of the American Psychological Association, the Association for Psychological Science, and the American Psychology-Law Society. In 2007, he received a Presidential Award from the American Psychological Association for his groundbreaking work on false confessions. He was the president of Division 41 of APA, a.k.a. the American Psychology-Law Society".
He seems to be pretty well respected in his field, actually. I think if you can dismiss Kassin out of hand, we can safely dismiss your ramblings about Charlie's motivations just as quickly. Charlie is interested in justice, and will use all the resources at his disposal to try and ascertain the truth. That's called intellectually honest.
Re: pissing contest. Yes please! I'll take your degree in Mechanical Engineering (not really relevant to understanding this case at all), and raise you a PhD in Philosophy, and 8 years experience teaching undergraduates. (Relevant in understanding reasoning, logic, the scientific method, rules of extrapolation and inference).
You say you'd rather talk about the evidence, but many posters here don't even know how to begin to engage in debate with someone who will not admit when they are wrong, dismisses arguments out of hand, refuses to abide by the rules of logic and debate.

 

[Supernaut]

the police actions have already been reviewed in the trial that Knox LOST regarding her false accusations of her black boss who she referred to as the African boy, a man of 40 years old.

As you well know, this is lifted from the type-written Italian "statement" Amanda was forced to sign in the middle of the night.

IOW, they are words put into her mouth by someone else.

 

[DrTesla]

Re: my 'assertion' about arguments from authority. I actually offered an argument, not an assertion. You did not provide a rebuttal. Therefore, for the purposes of our debate I am right.
Re: you're a bit of an amateur psychologist yourself. Hmmm. You dismissed Saul Kassin's work as 'bubblegum' when here's some of his career highlights (from Wikipedia):
1984, Kassin was awarded the U.S. Supreme Court Judicial Fellowship and worked at the Federal Judicial Center in Washington, DC.
1985, worked as a postdoctoral fellow at Stanford University in their Psychology and Law Program.
"Kassin went on to author several textbooks used at colleges and universities today such as Psychology, Essentials of Psychology, Developmental Social Psychology, The Psychology of Evidence and Trial Procedure, and The American Jury on Trial. He co-author the textbook Social Psychology with Dr. Steven Fein and Dr. Hazel Rose Markus.
Dr. Kassin is a Fellow of the American Psychological Association, the Association for Psychological Science, and the American Psychology-Law Society. In 2007, he received a Presidential Award from the American Psychological Association for his groundbreaking work on false confessions. He was the president of Division 41 of APA, a.k.a. the American Psychology-Law Society".
He seems to be pretty well respected in his field, actually. I think if you can dismiss Kassin out of hand, we can safely dismiss your ramblings about Charlie's motivations just as quickly. Charlie is interested in justice, and will use all the resources at his disposal to try and ascertain the truth. That's called intellectually honest.
Re: pissing contest. Yes please! I'll take your degree in Mechanical Engineering (not really relevant to understanding this case at all), and raise you a PhD in Philosophy, and 8 years experience teaching undergraduates. (Relevant in understanding reasoning, logic, the scientific method, rules of extrapolation and inference).
You say you'd rather talk about the evidence, but many posters here don't even know how to begin to engage in debate with someone who will not admit when they are wrong, dismisses arguments out of hand, refuses to abide by the rules of logic and debate.

there are lot of people with impressive degrees and backgrounds who think Knox is guilty and that there is enough evidence to convict both of them.

So we can do this professional piss contestall day but at the end of the day you have "experts" on both sides who disagree so they essentially cancel each other out, in terms of their degrees. that's why appeal to authority arguments suck and I reject them categorically every time.

moreover, I don't care what somebody not affiliated with the trial claims happens in this case. it seems to me a professional doesn't judge evidence from afar, doesn't decide guilt or innocence of somebody from afar, they need to touch, feel, see, inhale, fondle, grope the evidence so to speak. if this man is a psychologist, it seems like he would want to at least talk to Knox to see if she has any signs of psychological issues and at least decide for himself is she is a liar. I have been in a mental hospital myself and I know that they give you a series of psychological / personality profile tests much like the police in Italy no doubt gave her. I bet the score for this this batty bimbo was off the charts in the sections to see if you have delusions of grandeur about yourself as I suspect Knox has.

I would think most false confessions are done by people who are just really stupid, or a history of mental illness, or people who are guilty. I actually think Knox is all 3 but Friends insist she's a smart girl b/c she made good grades in her easy major and they deny she has any psychological problems.

 

[Supernaut]

Can a Friend of Amanda rationally explain ...[etc', etc'].

Perhaps you could entertain everyone with some more of your delightfully incisive and witty hypothesising?

- why did the cops insist (or for that matter even allow) Amanda to sign a "statment" in (literally) the middle of the night?

- why did they not, instead, bring Lumumba in for questioning and wait for a lawyer to arrive to advise Amanda on whether she should sign this statement?

- when did YOU last feel a compelling need to sign any kind of legally-binding document in the middle of the night?

- when did YOU last feel a compelling need to sign a legally-binding document without having taken any independent/expert advice at all?

 

[DrTesla]

IOW, they are words put into her mouth by someone else.

Yeah seems like she's always got somebody putting something in her mouth.

 

[Supernaut]

.....

I would think most false confessions are done by people who are just really stupid, or a history of mental illness, or people who are guilty. I actually think Knox is all 3 but Friends insist she's a smart girl b/c she made good grades in her easy major and they deny she has any psychological problems.

False confessions from people who are guilty? LoL. Too much coffee? (Caffeine Kills Concentration).

As for the rest, I'll leave it to someone more inclined to humouring you to provide some of the copious information available on the subject and disabuse you of this wilful ignorance.

(Hey, everyone! It's Groundhog Day! Let's all play whack-a-mole with DrT, shall we?)

 

[Supernaut]

Yeah seems like she's always got somebody putting something in her mouth.

So you believe that whoever typed "the African boy" in Italian was actually quoting Amanda Knox? Correct?

 

[DrTesla]

Perhaps you could entertain everyone with some more of your delightfully incisive and witty hypothesising?

- why did the cops insist (or for that matter even allow) Amanda to sign a "statment" in (literally) the middle of the night?

- why did they not, instead, bring Lumumba in for questioning and wait for a lawyer to arrive to advise Amanda on whether she should sign this statement?

- when did YOU last feel a compelling need to sign any kind of legally-binding document in the middle of the night?

- when did YOU last feel a compelling need to sign a legally-binding document without having taken any independent/expert advice at all?

Knox has already been found guilty of calumnia or whatever the hell they call it for falsely accusing Patrick so if there was any evidence the police forced her into doing that it should have saved her bacon in that trial.

Therefore, it's silly to keep talking about the night at the police station. that's just not going to win the day in the courtroom as the result in the other trial has proven.

Raffe actually delayed going into the police station that day until late in the evening. she tagged along with him despite nobody asking her to come to the station that night. since she was there, they asked her some questions when he broke her alibi. she wasn't questioned anymore than 2 hours max if we look at the constraits of her call to her roommate Filo prior to the questioning and her signed statement later which I think was in the 1 am hour. i'm not sure why it matters if this happened at night, they had an hot case where a young woman has been murdered and really kind of silly to think they should observe formal hours while the Butcher of Perugia is on the loose.

 

[DrTesla]

So you believe that whoever typed "the African boy" in Italian was actually quoting Amanda Knox? Correct?

lol, I don't think you get me at all, even after all this time.

I think Knox referred to Patrick as the African boy who works at the bar.

it's a real good thing for her PR efforts in the States nobody knows about this, or even that she falsely accused her black boss of the murder b/c she would raked over the coals by late night comedians, and probably Obama too.

 

[Supernaut]

note well that the Supreme Court in Italy has already said that the fact Knox falsely accused her boss can be seen as evidence against her in the murder trial, something the Hellmann court irrationally argued against.

Precisely the opposite of the truth, actually.

The "false accusation" was forbidden by the Supremos in the criminal courts (correction - "the murder trial"), and was used ONLY in the civil action launched unilaterally (yeh, right) by Lumumba.

(Someone might want to advise on whether the Supremos have descretion in the civil courts.)

Is the pay by the word or by the post?

 

[Supernaut]

What a farce.

 

[DrTesla]

Precisely the opposite of the truth, actually.

The "false accusation" was forbidden by the Supremos in the criminal courts, and was used ONLY in the civil action launched unilaterally (yeh, right) by Lumumba.

(Someone might want to advise on whether the Supremos have descretion in the civil courts.)

Is the pay by the word or by the post?

well we can all accuse each other of being paid to talk about Knox b/c we all talk and post about her way too much. Some of you guys appear to be giving up your lives to argue for Knox not being jailed rest of hers. in a way, you are doing time for her crime and that really makes me sad in a way for you. Somehow I doubt she cares about any of you and she surely wouldn't be on the internet talking up your innocence if you were framed for murder b/c she would be out GETTING IT ON. LOL

I wouldn't doubt if most everybody here has some pyschological issues, and I've already admitted that I do. LOL

I don't see why anybody would pay somebody to post on fairly obscure comment boards with a tiny audience of people viewing the comments. it's not like I or anybody is going to change the outcome of the trial in Italy by spitballing on here about this case. at best I could damage her PR efforts if people happened to see me talking about the racist aspects of it and mocking her for being a sex addict and somehow that started to perculilate out there with other people but that seems RATHER unlikely.

I know this sounds nuts but this AManda Knox thing just cracks me up, everything about it seems funny to me, except the fact this other girl got butchered like that. she's a funny girl. who knew a murder and murderer could be so entertaining? LOL

every time I'm having a bad day , I just re-read Knox's written declaration in which she states "Who is the REAL murder (sic)? This is especially important because blah blah blah" LOL I love how she acknowledges it is important to find the REAL killer in a murder case and she even has a reason why it is important although it doesn't have anything to do with justice or getting a killer of the streets but just that she thinks her false accusation might not be true but she made it anyway despite being confused. LOL you couldn't write a satire of this babe that could top her own stuff. this babe will always have a special place in my heart.

 

[DrTesla]

What a farce.

ok, figured you would think that.

if you have time and care, feel free to check out my 1 star review on Amazon of Knox's book Waiting To Get It On . the title of my review has a joke comparing Knox to OJ Simpson in terms of look for the REAL killer elsewhere. let your friends at the other website know about it too if you want.

 

[Supernaut]

<redundancy snipped>.

If this is your idea of fun, well, I can't claim that you even have my sympathy.

 

[Dan O.]

moreover, I don't care what somebody not affiliated with the trial claims happens in this case. it seems to me a professional doesn't judge evidence from afar, doesn't decide guilt or innocence of somebody from afar, they need to touch, feel, see, inhale, fondle, grope the evidence so to speak.

Yet here we have you.

 

[DrTesla]

Yet here we have you.

I don't claim to be a "professional" expert in relation to this case. I'm just a dude (a hero, a gladiator, according to the Silent Majority who lurks here, I suspect) with an opinion on a murder case that tickles my funny bone because of Knox's callow and sexed up nature and other aspects like the fact Rudy's turd in the toilet points to the fact he was at the cottage socially before the murder rather than he break in. this may be the first murder mystery where crap in the toilet points to the guilt of the accused. EVERYTHING in this case points right at our herorine Knox, she can't catch a break out there. LOL

 

[js202]

I'm actually here because I am putting together a white paper on the influence of insomnia and narcolepsy on glib conclusions and lunatic ramblings. Experts like John Douglas - with 5,000 FBI cases to his credit - have long ago pointed us in the correct direction on the death of Meredith Kercher, so there are now new pastures that need tending.

 

[DrTesla]

I'm actually here because I am putting together a white paper on the influence of insomnia and narcolepsy on glib conclusions and lunatic ramblings. Experts like John Douglas - with 5,000 FBI cases to his credit - have long ago pointed us in the correct direction on the death of Meredith Kercher, so there are now new pastures that need tending.

yo dude you are doing it all wrong. LOL

by the way, the leftwing pretentious fools over at the guilt website lead by the liberal Seattle-based Daily Kos babe are taking shots at me now. Called me abrasive. I told you guys that I was not of the Guilters. I'm my own man, always have been, always will be. I much rather spar with people that disagree with me than do the naval gaze thing that occurs over there daily and the dumb liberal politics that is worse than any Knox fanboyism. at what point do you stop bleating over this Obama guy? It's been 5 years now of a horrible economy and crushing debt and he's using the IRS against political opponents and he clearly lied about Benghazi being about some stupid video nobody saw because he didn't want to just admit it was terrorism b/c he wanted us to think Bin Laden dead = no more terrorism which is REAL dumb.

anda, another thing.

there isn't ever going to be any justice for the victim. her life is over so you trying to feel good about something isn't going to change a thing. that girl is dead forever. "true justice for Meridith" is a croak name b/c it doesn't mean anything to anybody except pretentious fools. I'm sure it comes from a good place but there isn't true justice for this woman and it's silly to act like there can be. Knox in jail needs to happen but there isn't any true justice for the victim.

 

[bri1]

there are lot of people with impressive degrees and backgrounds who think Knox is guilty and that there is enough evidence to convict both of them.

So we can do this professional piss contestall day but at the end of the day you have "experts" on both sides who disagree so they essentially cancel each other out, in terms of their degrees. that's why appeal to authority arguments suck and I reject them categorically every time.

moreover, I don't care what somebody not affiliated with the trial claims happens in this case. it seems to me a professional doesn't judge evidence from afar, doesn't decide guilt or innocence of somebody from afar, they need to touch, feel, see, inhale, fondle, grope the evidence so to speak. if this man is a psychologist, it seems like he would want to at least talk to Knox to see if she has any signs of psychological issues and at least decide for himself is she is a liar. I have been in a mental hospital myself and I know that they give you a series of psychological / personality profile tests much like the police in Italy no doubt gave her. I bet the score for this this batty bimbo was off the charts in the sections to see if you have delusions of grandeur about yourself as I suspect Knox has.

I would think most false confessions are done by people who are just really stupid, or a history of mental illness, or people who are guilty. I actually think Knox is all 3 but Friends insist she's a smart girl b/c she made good grades in her easy major and they deny she has any psychological problems.

Right, well I've already explained to you why arguments from authority don't 'suck' all the time.
Re: Saul Kassin offering his professional opinion from a distance. If you think that psychologists are able to differentiate between lies and truth any more accurately than anyone else, then you're very wrong, whether that person is sitting in front of them or not. Saul Kassin's work gives us a list of factors which are commonly present in false confessions.
Low IQ is one that doesn't fit, however much you call Knox a bimbo, she is clearly someone with above average IQ. However, as I recall, all the other markers do fit.
By the way, insisting on calling Knox names (like bimbo) as well as being a decent indicator of misogyny, is an indicator that you're unable to engage properly in debate. She is about to graduate with an undergraduate degree (which I believe is the level of your highest qualification). Also, I have read a fair amount of her writing and a fair amount of yours, and it's clear to most people who've done the same, that you're in no position to be doing so.
You are right that there are impressive degrees on the other side, but many such people, such as Novelli, have contravened all kinds of common sense rules and academic standards to give testimony that doesn't make a lick of sense and is deliberately misleading. Obviously Stefanoni isn't counted, as she doesn't have an advanced degree.