Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[DrTesla]

The truth must hurt some more than others, but really, the only people that can discuss this trail with a Foaker is another Foaker, what are you guys afraid of. I've tried, I suppose I knew before what the result would be but at least if the truth is ever know, you will all know who was right all along and hopefully you will have learnt something along the way as well.

the truth is already known, outside the exact motive of Knox and how it went down that night and how Rudy came to be involved, because what other murder mystery has the accused's DNA on the victim's bra (or other clothing) and the accused's DNA on the murder weapon found in the house of the accused? the accused would be hating life if just one of these was true, plus they got a whole pile more to answer for and they clearly have not been able to do it.

 

[anglolawyer]

People often include whats on their minds or recent events in their diary. Pages from October the month proceeding the murder were ripped out. This of course led to some speculation if there was something written that was removed prior to her arrest. Bringing up a story later with a cellmate and ripped out pages seems like a strange add on. That's why I compared it to Sollecito's later email story.

And this is evidence of what? Has anyone seen the diary? Was it a tell-all type of thing or just appointments and reminders?

You didn't answer my question about her forgetting she texted Patrick. I think she also forgot about Popovic. I'll assume you accept she forgot these things. That proves she did not have perfect recall of the evening and thus renders any further attempts to make something out of her imperfect recollections irrelevant.

What's your take on this post of Grinder's? Especially the part about mobile phone records. What do you think the cops had gleaned from her mobile phone records that was 'crucial'?

ETA Ah, you did answer my question about the forgotten texts.

Yes I believe she forgot the message which was the same as saying O.K bye. The message wasn't the problem the fact that she had the night off and Sollecito said she went out was.

Why is it possible for her to forget the texts but impossible for Raffaele to forget which night it was that she went out? He says he asked to see a calendar but the cops refused. Do you believe that?

 

[HumanityBlues]

Mine is no pet theory, I've looked at every aspect of this crime and looked at every possible outcome, I tend to lean between the most likely, as in that footprint going out of Meredith door that no one seems to have a logical answer for other than Rudi did not lock that door. I an fully confident that if the truth is ever know, many on this board will be giving silent praise my way.....

Wait, you don't actually expect to be vindicated on your pet theory that begins with Rudy breaking into the house to use the bathroom do you?

 

[anglolawyer]

So if Raffaele had said "I'm not coming with you" or "I'll be there tomorrow with my Dad and my lawyer," the cops would have had to actually arrest him to bring him in? Under Italian law, they couldn't have forced him to appear otherwise? Suppose the cops had dragged him in over his protests? Would he have had any realistic chance of redress? (In the U.S. there are distinctions to be made between "detention" and "arrest," but they wouldn't apply to Raffaele's situation.)

I am not sufficiently well versed in Italian law to answer. I can only reference my own system and assume the logic that produced it will apply to make the Italian system more or less correspond. In the UK witnesses cannot be compelled to assist the police. That's it.

 

[anglolawyer]

I distinctly recall just recently in this very thread Rolfe ridiculing that specific bit of pro-guilt fanfiction, the idea that the stress of an attack might miraculously halt digestion like a stopped clock in an Agatha Christie mystery. Rolfe's professional opinion was that was ridiculous, and that diarrhoea or vomiting were far more likely responses to ongoing stress.

The idea that Meredith might have been tortured for an hour while her stomach contents stayed perfectly still in a state of suspended animation has no basis in the scientific literature. It's purely the result of scientifically ignorant and partisan readers finding a snippet they liked the sound of ("stress can slow or halt digestion") and deciding that this snippet meant a complete open season on the time of death.



My understanding is that the defence were prepared to do so, but Hellmann's minimalist approach to the appeal was just to test Curatolo's attack on the defendants' alibi, and the DNA evidence purportedly putting them at the scene, and then declare that with those planks of the prosecution case removed that there was no case to answer.

The defence won without having to contest the time of death, and so this line of argument turned out to be unnecessary. In an important sense, the time of death doesn't matter, because the prosecution case fails whether the time of death was 21:05 or 23:30. This just shows that there are multiple, redundant ways to demolish the prosecution case.



A Mac.

I'm surprised you weren't aware, but part of the Mac OS called "Spotlight" keeps track of when files were last opened. It's quite handy because I might remember I watched a movie file yesterday but forget the name of the file. Hey presto, I search for files whose "last opened" metadata says they were last opened yesterday and I find the file I want.

The Spotlight metadata shows someone was watching cartoons on Raffale's laptop that evening, at exactly the time your theory needs them to be out and about bent on nefarious acts. Thus your theory is falsified and you need a new one which fits with reality.



This is astronomically unlikely. Strictly wishful thinking based on an inadequate, amateur understanding of the relevant science.



You've "looked at every aspect of this crime" but you weren't even aware of the Spotlight metadata? Nor of what the competent experts have to say about the time of death?

I submit that maybe you've looked, but you cannot have looked rigorously or with sufficient impartiality.

There is something distinctly odd about this spotlight metadata. Was this not majored on in the Massei trial? If not, why not? There is no reference to Naruto or spotlight in Raffaele's book. If it's such a killer point, why not?

 

[Antony]

Well, if they said that, I did not know that, I guess they must be innocent then, where did I go wrong, oh wait, I remember, I don't believe a lot of what they say which is why I don't believe they are totally innocent.

Yet it seems you believe everything the Perugia police say, in spite of the fact that there is far more reason to distrust them than there is to distrust Amanda and Raffaele.

There is a reason why civilised countries expect a particular standard of proof before declaring individuals guilty of a crime. Instead of picking over the defendant's statements and actions for inconsistencies, why won't you do the same for those accusing them?

 

[DrTesla]

Yet it seems you believe everything the Perugia police say, in spite of the fact that there is far more reason to distrust them than there is to distrust Amanda and Raffaele.

There is a reason why civilised countries expect a particular standard of proof before declaring individuals guilty of a crime. Instead of picking over the defendant's statements and actions for inconsistencies, why won't you do the same for those accusing them?

the police are not on trial for murder, or anything else. what Friends want to do is put everybody on trial but Amanda Knox.

 

[Antony]

I'm thinking they had the knife with them, but wasn't used in the murder, even if they were involved directly in the murder, Raff always had pocket knives, they still could have used multiple knives, just not the big one.

If you don't even believe the kitchen knife from Raff's flat was involved in the murder, what evidence is there that it was ever at the cottage? What evidence is there that there was more than one knife?

 

[DrTesla]

this is very interesting for you "science" geeks out there, from http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/index.php?title=Luminol_Traces

Negative TMB Test

A final objection to the footprints that were revealed being blood is based on the negative results of a TMB test on the same surface. Tetramethylbenzidine (TMB) is another presumptive test for the presence of blood. The problem with this argument is that TMB is only able to detect blood to a sensitivity of 1 in 10,000 parts.[20] Luminol on the other hand is extremely sensitive and is capable of detecting blood to a sensitivity of 1 in 1,000,000 parts on the low end and 1 in 100,000,000 parts on the high end.[21] That means that Luminol is at a minimum 100 times the sensitivity of TMB and can be as high as 10,000 times the sensitivity. Attempting to compare the sensitivity of these two tests it is clear that Luminol is by far the more sensitive test. Using a considerably less sensitive test to argue that the positive result of the test with a much greater sensitivity is a false positive is illogical and incorrect.

 

[DrTesla]

I also enjoyed reviewing this, as I'm rather bit ignorant of Luminol, from http://themurderofmeredithkercher.co...Luminol_Traces

I believe the highlighted section regarding the traces being bleach, which as I understand it is Steve Moore's pet theory, is very insightful and utterly destroys his argument and even makes one wonder if he has not lied about his background in the FBI.


False Positives and Luminol

A popular defence against the claim that the footprints were made in blood is that Luminol also fluoresces with sprayed on some substances other than blood. The reason the Luminol is useful to crime scene reconstruction rests on the fact that the substances that cause false positives are typically not found at crime scenes and in the cases of substances such as some brands of enamel paint the false positive is easy to detect because the reaction is not limited to a blood deposit pattern but covers the entire affected surface. In our case the Luminol reaction were in the shape of feet with three of the traces having succinct details to identify them as footprints compatible with Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. The footprints were also limited to the part of the corridor between Meredith and Amanda's room and were not found anywhere else in the cottage. This would allow us to eliminate reactions to paint or to terracotta or ceramic elements in the tile.

To claim the footprints are the result of a false positive one is limited to claiming it is something that was on the feet of Knox and Sollecito. The most common and potentially exculpatory explanation would be bleach. If bleach was used in the cleaning of the bathroom Amanda Knox could have gotten it on her feet and then make imprints that would react to Luminol. This fails when one considered that the Luminol was applied December 18[16] and the murder happened November 1st with the body discovered November 2nd. Bleach only causes a reaction with Luminol for a few days after the bleach is deposited.[17][18] After a few days the hypochlorite evaporates and the surface no longer causes Luminol to emit light. Since in this case six weeks had passed it is impossible to attribute the chemiluminescence to bleach. With bleach eliminated the last remaining possibility would be a vegetable peroxidase. Turnip, parsnip, and horseradish pulp would give the strongest reaction but carrot or onion pulp would also work.[19] If the defence wishes to argue that Knox and Sollecito were in the habit of applying turnip pulp to their feet but no one is required to believe a claim such as that. The elimination of bleach as a possible explanation for a false positive results in the only possible conclusion being that these footprints were made in blood.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

L

No wonder the only people who can talk or understand a FOAKER is another FOAKER. So, you claim this Spotlight metadata can tell if one or more people are present at any given time, to bad your not on the defense team, they could use a guy like you.

What's your game here? Your theory has them both out and about on nefarious business shortly after Meredith's death. Even if only one was at home your theory is still falsified. You can't get around that with name-calling.

Moreover, if one was at home doing nothing wrong while the other was out covering up a murder, you need some kind of story that makes sense of the fact that the innocent party never told the truth to the police.

This is on top of the fact that your theory requires a time of death based entirely on wishful thinking.

If we move the time of the attack back to the most likely time, 21:05, and then we suppose Amanda was there for some reason to witness the attack, and in defiance of common sense she decided that while a nutcase is stabbing Meredith the best thing she can do is jog to Raffaele's house and see what he thinks about it, that gets her back to his place at 21:10 maybe. So why is he sitting around for a quarter of an hour then watching Naruto? It doesn't fit with the facts at all.

There's no simple fix for your theory. It needs to be junked and replaced with a new one that better fits the known facts.

 

[DrTesla]

Since we know it wasn't blood because it tested negative with TMB and they tried to hide that, what makes you think it had anything to do with the murder being on the other side of the house with absolutely nothing connecting it?

This is all manufactured evidence.

I seemed to remember you making this statement last night which I understood to be false based on my readings but I needed to review it some to be sure.

As was pointed out in my previous post, Luminol is much much more sensitive to blood than is TMB, so to claim Luminol gave a false positive result on the basis of the negative result with TMB is illogical.

there there is the matter of you being utterly incapable of explaining what other substance it could have been, b/c it could not have been bleach, as my previous post citing my favorite website on this case points out. so unless it was some kind of vegetable pulp on the feet, what could it be?

another crazy thing about the Friends is they keep denying there was a clean up but we have footprints that are illuminated by Luminol in the house. isn't that evidence of a cleanup?

who, if not somebody who lived at the house, or at least knew the victim fairly well and could be seen as a suspect, would be motivated to come back and wipe up bloody footprints, footprints found in between the victim's bedroom and Amanda's bedroom, one wonders? Hmmmmmmm. Maybe the person who also borrowed Amanda's lamp, but not Amanda course. LOL

I love this case, I feel like i'm shooting baby seals in a barrel. if only all murder cases were this easy. Mignini had to be having lots of fun on this one.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I remember when I very first started participating in this thread the nonsense about luminol footprints was in vogue. Some things never change, I guess.

The luminol footprints bear no immediately obvious relation to the murder at all. They form no coherent chain, they don't lead to or from the murder room, they can't even be shown definitively to match any particular person. There's not even any evidence they were deposited on the night of the murder rather than being earlier and unrelated. They are barefoot, but the only barefoot print which we know was related to the case was the one Rudy left on the bathmat and we know he put his shoes back on again afterwards, and if Raffaele and Amanda were involved why on Earth would they be barefoot?

If they were related to the murder you'd expect a trail of them coming out of the room with the blood in it, fading as they go, right? As opposed to a random scattering in the kitchen area with no rhyme or reason.

Pro-guilt posters have made a game since the very early days of demanding that anyone skeptical of the prosecution case provide them with a specific explanation of how the luminol-reacting footprints came to be, which is a very silly demand.

Many things react with luminol that we know of, and no doubt more react with it that we don't know of, and any of them could be responsible for the footprints. It could have been vegetable juice or a cleaning product, both things commonly found in kitchens. It is unlikely to be blood, because the footprints tested negative for blood. That could have been a false negative but it's still evidence against the blood hypothesis.

The bottom line is that it happened years ago and it could have happened in many different ways. Expecting someone to figure it out in 2013 is patently silly. All we can say is that the probably aren't blood and probably aren't related to the murder.

A popular guilter meme was that the very irrelevance of the footprints proved that there was a clean-up. They could imagine the heady possibility that lots of other footprints had obce existed and they would have told a guilt-related story, if only they had not been cleaned up. The problem is that it's not so easy to wipe up blood in such a way that it won't show up with luminol, and the total lack of streaking or streaky luminol blobs shows that no such wiping occurred. Another pro-guilt meme was that a bleach-based cleaner might have been used, but if such a cleaner had been used that recently it would have been very, very obvious when luminol was applied.

This among other reasons, I suspect, is why the Hellmann court wisely concluded that the "clean-up" so beloved of the pro-guilt internet community was utterly imaginary. No such clean-up ever happened, and the footprints turn out to be just one more irrelevant observation which the prosecution tried to misconstrue as evidence against Knox and Sollecito.

 

[Kaosium]

the police are not on trial for murder, or anything else. what Friends want to do is put everybody on trial but Amanda Knox.

Any time an innocent person has a case made against them the evidence presented must actually be the result of coincidence, incompetence, mistakes or fraud. If there is actual evidence of those, a rational mind must take that into account, otherwise they will never reach the correct conclusion, and a gross injustice will occur.

Unlike some cases, it's not like there's a mystery as to how Meredith died, the perpetrator has been caught and convicted, the evidence of guilt more than sufficient. The death needs no explanation, but the fact that it is still being pursued despite everyone knowing Amanda and Raffaele were arrested mistakenly on the basis of coincidence and bad evidence does.

That's part what makes this case a fascinating phenomena: how is it possible that there's those who have no doubt Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are guilty? That's the standard, to be guilty beyond the doubt of a reasonable person. I presume that anyone who's been or has been posting on this case has no doubt they are guilty, as by definition I postulate they would be unreasonable to spend hours every day for years in some cases if they actually had doubts they (or just she in some cases) was guilty.

Thus at this stage the only recourse is to attempt to prove that the information they're relying on is corrupt: either untrue, irrelevant or the product of fraud. As there's actually plenty of real evidence of that, that can be an interesting discussion too, and in the long run it may do some good if an object lesson is made of the people most responsible for his debacle, in my mind Napoleoni, Stefanoni and above all The Master of Suspicion himself, Giuliano Mignini.

So yes, in a just world there should be more trials, at this juncture it's probably the only way Amanda and Raffaele will ever have their names completely cleared, and as innocent human beings having been subjected to a gross injustice at the hands of corrupt officials, that's what they all deserve: justice.

Whether it will happen or not to the benefit of Italians (mostly) is another question entirely, but there's no reason to pretend in the ether that they shouldn't be. If you don't speak out against it when you see it, then it might just become 'the new normal.'

 

[DrTesla]

I remember when I very first started participating in this thread the nonsense about luminol footprints was in vogue. Some things never change, I guess.

The luminol footprints bear no immediately obvious relation to the murder at all. They form no coherent chain, they don't lead to or from the murder room, they can't even be shown definitively to match any particular person. There's not even any evidence they were deposited on the night of the murder rather than being earlier and unrelated.

what? they were found b/t the victim's bedroom and Knox's bedroom, and there was a HUGE volume of victim's blood in that bedroom b/c a huge artery in her neck had been severed when Knox slit her throat. You will have to come up with some kind of scenario where both Knox's and Raffe's bloody prints are both on the floor, b/c it seems like the other two roommates could corroborate such a scenario as they lived there too. it would have to be a good bit of Meredith's blood for them to be stomping around it. the simple explanation is it was Meredith's blood from the night of the murder given the huge volume of her blood in the house.

Many things react with luminol that we know of, and no doubt more react with it that we don't know of, and any of them could be responsible for the footprints. It could have been vegetable juice or a cleaning product, both things commonly found in kitchens. It is unlikely to be blood, because the footprints tested negative for blood. That could have been a false negative but it's still evidence against the blood hypothesis. .

It clearly could not be bleach, b/c the Luminol test was done 6 weeks after the murder, and there would be not be a positive result for bleach after such a long time. This is Science. Also you think if it was bleach, there would have been traces all over as it would have been used for cleaning the floor if it's on the floor. It makes not sense it's vegetable juice, and to believe it's vegetable before you believe it's blood, given the HUGE VOLUME of victim's blood in the house, seems to be grabbing a straws. The footprints didn't test negative for blood, b/c they were exposed by Luminol, which is much much more sensitive than TMB, which did have a false result. All the TMB test could ever do is confirm it was blood, it could never rule it out, given Luminol's superiority in sensitivity to blood.

The bottom line is that it happened years ago and it could have happened in many different ways. Expecting someone to figure it out in 2013 is patently silly. All we can say is that the probably aren't blood and probably aren't related to the murder.
.

Sounds like you guys have settled on this "is this still 2008" talking point and the idea that we just can't figure anything out a whole 60 months later as though the evidence comes with an expiration date.

we can say it is blood and we can say they are Knox and Raffe's bloody prints the night of the murder that they wiped away. And we will.

 

[DrTesla]

Any time an innocent person has a case made against them the evidence presented must actually be the result of coincidence, incompetence, mistakes or fraud. If there is actual evidence of those, a rational mind must take that into account, otherwise they will never reach the correct conclusion, and a gross injustice will occur.

Unlike some cases, it's not like there's a mystery as to how Meredith died, the perpetrator has been caught and convicted, the evidence of guilt more than sufficient. The death needs no explanation, but the fact that it is still being pursued despite everyone knowing Amanda and Raffaele were arrested mistakenly on the basis of coincidence and bad evidence does.

That's part what makes this case a fascinating phenomena: how is it possible that there's those who have no doubt Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are guilty? That's the standard, to be guilty beyond the doubt of a reasonable person. I presume that anyone who's been or has been posting on this case has no doubt they are guilty, as by definition I postulate they would be unreasonable to spend hours every day for years in some cases if they actually had doubts they (or just she in some cases) was guilty.

Thus at this stage the only recourse is to attempt to prove that the information they're relying on is corrupt: either untrue, irrelevant or the product of fraud. As there's actually plenty of real evidence of that, that can be an interesting discussion too, and in the long run it may do some good if an object lesson is made of the people most responsible for his debacle, in my mind Napoleoni, Stefanoni and above all The Master of Suspicion himself, Giuliano Mignini.

So yes, in a just world there should be more trials, at this juncture it's probably the only way Amanda and Raffaele will ever have their names completely cleared, and as innocent human beings having been subjected to a gross injustice at the hands of corrupt officials, that's what they all deserve: justice.

Whether it will happen or not to the benefit of Italians (mostly) is another question entirely, but there's no reason to pretend in the ether that they shouldn't be. If you don't speak out against it when you see it, then it might just become 'the new normal.'

the police actions have already been reviewed in the trial that Knox LOST regarding her false accusations of her black boss who she referred to as the African boy, a man of 40 years old.

note well that the Supreme Court in Italy has already said that the fact Knox falsely accused her boss can be seen as evidence against her in the murder trial, something the Hellmann court irrationally argued against.

 

[anglolawyer]

How about luminol footprints in the room? I assume the prints are supposed to have occurred when she stepped in the blood (there should be one or more negative prints of that) and then walked all around the house making visible bloody footprints. But there are no reports of prints leading from the great smear of blood over to the door. It follows these were cleaned up, perhaps using the lamp and by a means unknown since it is said to be very difficult to erase blood entirely.

But, they must have achieved that inside the room while outside they were less successful, removing the visible blood but leaving foot-shaped remnants of it. Maybe they used a different method. Steve Moore recently wrote an article explaining that if you erase a bloody footprint you may leave enough blood to yield a luminol reaction but you won't leave a recognisable print. He likened it to blackboard from which the day's class exercise has been wiped. You can still see the remnants of chalk but you can no longer make out e=mc squared.

And then, after taking such pains over the bloody footprints, they left the bathmat print. The mind boggles. If that's Raf's where are the rest of his prints? If they were naked, as hypothesised, where are the luminol footprints with his DNA in them?

Is there a pro-guilt person out there who can satisfactorily address these questions? Or will silence ensue for the statutory number of pages before someone brings the subject up again as if it's a knock-out point.

 

[DrTesla]

How about luminol footprints in the room? I assume the prints are supposed to have occurred when she stepped in the blood (there should be one or more negative prints of that) and then walked all around the house making visible bloody footprints. But there are no reports of prints leading from the great smear of blood over to the door. It follows these were cleaned up, perhaps using the lamp and by a means unknown since it is said to be very difficult to erase blood entirely.

But, they must have achieved that inside the room while outside they were less successful, removing the visible blood but leaving foot-shaped remnants of it. Maybe they used a different method. Steve Moore recently wrote an article explaining that if you erase a bloody footprint you may leave enough blood to yield a luminol reaction but you won't leave a recognisable print. He likened it to blackboard from which the day's class exercise has been wiped. You can still see the remnants of chalk but you can no longer make out e=mc squared.

And then, after taking such pains over the bloody footprints, they left the bathmat print. The mind boggles. If that's Raf's where are the rest of his prints? If they were naked, as hypothesised, where are the luminol footprints with his DNA in them?

Is there a pro-guilt person out there who can satisfactorily address these questions? Or will silence ensue for the statutory number of pages before someone brings the subject up again as if it's a knock-out point.

I love it, you reject the mountain of evidence against them, but then act like you would accept other evidence against them that does not exist, but since it does not exist, they must be innocent. You are like one of this defense lawyers who thinks he is slick but people know what's up.

the print on the mat was only a partial print as I understand. it was also diluted with water and faded so maybe they tried to wash it. maybe they thought Raff wouldn't be a suspect given he didn't live there and maybe they thought he had set up his computer at home with the movie running to look like he was there and the police wouldn't be able he was not active at his computer that night. given they were on drugs, and not particularly bright people, just b/c they do something dumb like not get rid of the mat doesn't mean they are innocent.

moore doesn't know what he's talking about, it's my understanding he claimed they didn't use bleach to clean up the apartment but the luminol fooptrints were actually made in bleach, which seems like a contradiction. luminol doesn't react with bleach after a few days of it being depositied and the luminol was not used for 6 weeks after the murder. the footprints were not made in bleach.

 

[anglolawyer]

Is there a pro-guilt person out there who can satisfactorily address these questions? Or will silence ensue for the statutory number of pages before someone brings the subject up again as if it's a knock-out point?

No.
Yes.

 

[DrTesla]

No.
Yes.

Can a Friend of Amanda rationally explain how Raffe's DNA (and likely hers as well but in smaller quantity) got on the victim's bra clasp AND the victim's DNA was on the blade of a knife found in his house?

Nope, add that to the fact they've got no alibi, a false accusation of an innocent man, and plently of other evidence, they are cooked.