Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Why isn't it possible that Rudi left the print and returned to the room and then locked the door?

There are a number of things which are possible. Sherlock is not the only one espousing this theory... there was a poster by another name on PMF espousing this as well.

Like I said, on one of the days when SH was most clear about what he meant by the theory and why after testing no one who he knew who lock a door that way, I witnessed someone do that very thing.

Is it common, No! However, given that the usual fall back position is that no one other than Rudy knows exactly what it was that went down that night - and Rudy has all sorts of good reasons to comply with Mignini and blame the two innocents - why not some other possibility like he simply returned to lock the door. Or he locked it on his way to the bathroom and exited? I mean, Judge Massei himself gave his own theory of a clean-up - yes Massei's theory of the clean-up is limited to the little section of hall between Meredith's room and the bathmat - as happening out in the hall (with no forensic indication that a clean-up had, in fact, been attempted).

I believe the philosophical term is "monism". I you you love it, Grinder, when these terms are dusted off, but someone commits a "monism" when they throw all their thinking-eggs into one basket - have a pet theory which all else must fit into...

Sorry SH... that's the way I see it. The worst part of it is that you have me agreeing with Grinder. Usually he and I are at each others' throats about something.

 

[GWCarver]

thx for the reply

i assume its difficult to impossible to fake an electropherogram? Could a person create an electropherogram by using Rafs DNA by itself and then claim it was the unknown sample being tested?

If it is impossible to fake an electropherogram, then i guess that would mean the only way to deliberately contaminate a sample is to add a specimen of Raf to the sample being tested which I assume she had access to?

If they didn't have access to surplus DNA of Raf that could be used to create a false match, then am I to assume that only leaves contamination as an innocent reason why his DNA would be found on anything (I'm asking this in a general sense to understand the risks, etc without consideration of the debate over what was found on the strap was Rafs or not).

I'm not claiming any of the above happened, I'm merely trying to understand the various innocent reasons why the lab results would have pointed to Rafs DNA

I think it is important to note that the DNA and print evidence against Guede was found during routine crime-scene processing. Both the "double DNA" knife and the bra-clasp were acquired by just going out and picking them up. They didn't even try to make the frame-up plausibly deniable by picking up a number of items and finding a DNA hit on one of them. I find the audacity of this stunning, but to them it is so routine they don't even mind putting the acquisition of the bra-clasp on tape, and having the cop testify he picked up the one knife at a place other than the crime scene and had it tested because it looked "freshly bleached".

I really don't know how this works in Perugia, but it seems many employees in law enforcement and at the crime lab know what their job requires and they just do what is necessary to make the case requested by the PM. It is simply a matter of whatever it takes, IMO.

It does appear they all don't play ball, though. Four of the cops didn't join the suit against Amanda, and I doubt it was because they couldn't use the extra money. Everyone can use extra money.

 

[Grinder]

Because if he did that there would be prints leading back to the room. Even if the tracks weren't visible to the naked eye they would show up under luminol. At least that is the argument that has been made.

Thanks. As Charlie explained after some point the blood would dry and not leave prints. I don't see any evidence that the only time he could lock the door was when he left the prints.

And what's this that we find when we actually take a close look at these footprints... Print H is outside of the sequence leading to the door and facing back to the bedroom. And in at least one of the luminol prints there are a set of concentric circles just like the shoe prints but it is very dim and almost not visible. And then there is the extra pair of prints G and J that have the same stride but totally different character.

I await your new map.

The claim that the bloody footprints lead from Meredith's room and straight out the door has been demolished by the evidence.

Once again thanks. Even if he did go out the door with a left foot leaving prints he still could have worn them off outside.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

one gets the strong sense that the Silent Majority, the lurkers on this form who never or rarely comment, have started to turn on Knox and Raffe, and justice is on the horizon. we must stay the course.

How can you know what lurkers who never comment are thinking except maybe "I don't care enough about this topic to bother posting?"

Your idea of justice will never be realized because Amanda Knox won't go back to Italy for the trial. So if she is convicted, she won't serve any more time in prison

 

[Bill Williams]

I think it is important to note that the DNA and print evidence against Guede was found during routine crime-scene processing. Both the "double DNA" knife and the bra-clasp were acquired by just going out and picking them up. They didn't even try to make the frame-up plausibly deniable by picking up a number of items and finding a DNA hit on one of them. I find the audacity of this stunning, but to them it is so routine they don't even mind putting the acquisition of the bra-clasp on tape, and having the cop testify he picked up the one knife at a place other than the crime scene and had it tested because it looked "freshly bleached".

I really don't know how this works in Perugia, but it seems many employees in law enforcement and at the crime lab know what their job requires and they just do what is necessary to make the case requested by the PM. It is simply a matter of whatever it takes, IMO.

It does appear they all don't play ball, though. Four of the cops didn't join the suit against Amanda, and I doubt it was because they couldn't use the extra money. Everyone can use extra money.

I did not appreciate how much many of the guilters simply do not understand this case until I read Peggy Ganong's reaction to the Oct 3, 2011 acquittal of the pair.

She said, "Well, if they throw out the DNA on the knife and throw out the DNA on the bra-clasp, then why aren't they throwing out all the forensics about Rudy too?"

That was a stunning admission that she did not have a timeline of this case in her head. It's no wonder guilters never try to squeeze Sollecito and Knox into a realistic, comprehensive timeline of this case - all they do like the other posters do here: make assertions, or offer drive-by insults.

It is exactly as you say. The problem that the cops faced with Knox, Sollecito, and Lumumba in jail and with the cops claiming "case closed". is that the results of first, comprehensive forensic sweep of the cottage pointed to none of them - at the time, the press started reporting that some as yet unknown "fourth man" must now be involved. Of course this turned out to be Rudy Guede to whom all the forensics pointed....

.... well, with the exception of a knife found at Raffaele's with Meredith's non-blood DNA on it. And this knife begged a lot of questions: cleaning with bleach would destroy GNA before it would destory blood, Stefanoni allegedly found Meredith's non-blood DNA in a grove on the blade that no one else can find anymore... you know the drill on that knife.

But the point is that with Lumumba gone because of a rock solid alibi, and with Amanda and Raffaele being each other's alibi, but other wise nothing point to them... the issue came to be the second forensic sweep, done 46 days later when the Scientific Police had already (apparently) signed off on the place as secure - witness Meredith's mattress now dragged into the kitchen and Meredith's bloody sweatshirt now in the clothes hamper.

And with all this mucking around, the Scientific Police now find a bra-clasp that was a couple of feet from where it was 46 days earlier and there had been unknown people in and out of Meredith's room, if only to remove the mattress. And on that Dec day, the SP take a picture of themselves with paper booties standing in Meredith's blood.

It was in that context that the bra-clasp was "found" and bagged - and which, by the way, was kept improperly and is now, in 2013, totally rusted and useless.

So guilters say: if we can't trust the forensic evidence against AK and RS, why should we against Rudy? Well, it was collected before anyone knew anything about him, and all of it pointed only to one person. It was only later, with the contested knife and bra-clasp, that ANY controversy exists.

It is presently unknown the status of the Conti-Vecchiotti report, as a result of the March 26 Supreme Court quashing of the acquittals. If the SC in its coming motivations report says nothing about the C&V report being arrived at by the wrong application of court procedure or law, then the C&V report stands.

Of course, a new fact-finding trial is free to find its own facts. But here's the deal. If guilters believe that Patrizia Stefanoni's DNA work was so stellar... why are they wanting a new DNA study done? (I stole that from Wismayer!) Why not just hold up Stefanoni's work as obviously professional, and by itse;f be the downfall of C&V?

Every once in a while I don't think guilters put this case on to a timeline for a reason. They might start with a timeline for the night of Nov 1, which places AK and/or RS at the cottage.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

There are a number of things which are possible. Sherlock is not the only one espousing this theory... there was a poster by another name on PMF espousing this as well.

Like I said, on one of the days when SH was most clear about what he meant by the theory and why after testing no one who he knew who lock a door that way, I witnessed someone do that very thing.

Is it common, No! However, given that the usual fall back position is that no one other than Rudy knows exactly what it was that went down that night - and Rudy has all sorts of good reasons to comply with Mignini and blame the two innocents - why not some other possibility like he simply returned to lock the door. Or he locked it on his way to the bathroom and exited? I mean, Judge Massei himself gave his own theory of a clean-up - yes Massei's theory of the clean-up is limited to the little section of hall between Meredith's room and the bathmat - as happening out in the hall (with no forensic indication that a clean-up had, in fact, been attempted).

I believe the philosophical term is "monism". I you you love it, Grinder, when these terms are dusted off, but someone commits a "monism" when they throw all their thinking-eggs into one basket - have a pet theory which all else must fit into...

Sorry SH... that's the way I see it. The worst part of it is that you have me agreeing with Grinder. Usually he and I are at each others' throats about something.

Bill, did that person you witnessed locking the door, just so happen to murder someone violently ? Also, did they lock that door with a set of keys they had never used before with no idea if they even had a key that could even lock that door? Sorry, It is not possible.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

How can you know what lurkers who never comment are thinking except maybe "I don't care enough about this topic to bother posting?"

Your idea of justice will never be realized because Amanda Knox won't go back to Italy for the trial. So if she is convicted, she won't serve any more time in prison

I think she would be stupid to go back to Italy, in fact I don't think anyone under the same circumstances would go, but I fully expect her to say over and over that she wants to go, but family won't let her, wait and see.

 

[Dan O.]

For the sake of argument, let's say the FP wished to fake a result. In general, I can see that there might be multiple ways to generate false data. I think that it would have been a little odd (but not impossible) not to find Meredith's DNA on her clasp. Therefore, if I were going to fake the result, I would take an item of Raffaele's and smear it onto the clasp.

Or someone could take the clasp and drag it across something of Raffaele's. Like someone picked up the clasp when it was discovered and didn't log it because it was part of the bra which already had an evidence number (I might need to look up where I heard that one). When all the evidence stacked against Raffaele had failed, that same someone could visit Raffaele in prison and drag the hooks of the clasp on Raffaele's bed sheets for instance. Then they just need to slip into The cottage while nobody is watching and leave the clasp in the Murder room to be found again.

 

[RandyN]

here is True Justice summary of the conflicting statements of Knox with the cell phone record, this is what they do best over there:

snip

At 12.34pm Amanda and Filomena again spoke on their phones. Filomena said, “We spoke to each other for the third time and she told me that the window in my room was broken and that my room was in a mess. At this point I asked her to call the police and she told me that she already had.”

The prosecution introduced records to show that Knox and Sollecito didn’t actually call the police until 12.51pm.
snip




I dont suppose you find it remarkable that Filo tells Knox to call police does it? After all Knox is foreigner with poor Italian language skills meanwhile Filo is a native Italian and she works in a legal office so she might be able to get right to the point....funny that Filo never calls the police herself. Also funny that Filo does call her boss (the lawyer) and he comes to the crime scene. Now why do you suppose he did that?


These prosecution records wouldn't be from the miscalculation that the police and prosecutor did with the cctv time stamp data would they? They seem to have several real problems in Perugia with the most mundane of tasks...making a correct time adjustment (they subtracted the time that should have been added) counting the rings of the bloody shoe print...RS 7 rings....Guede 11 rings. Capturing the data from a computer...they failed at least 4 times...and not just failed but they actually burned up the hard drives...and in one instance that moron cop even tried to take the HD apart...I suppose he thought he may be able to see the 1's and 0's on the platters??? Dolt. Lets see they forgot to push record on AK,RS, and PL interrogations...or you can go with Migninis other lie (we have this one on tape btw) that due to budget constraints no recording was made. Funny how they had the budget to wire tap 30 thousand personal phone calls made by the members of RS family. Funny that huh?

BTW what Pete does best is harass ballerinas...

Your (their) list is incomplete. Why not try adding in DanO list with yours and see what that gets you....but mostly you should start considering Filo as a suspect. She had the exact same alibi as Knox. She was in town. She refused to call police. She made Knox make all the calls. Why? No Filo DNA or prints were found in her own home...surly she was the one who must have cleaned up and staged the scene...NO?

I always think I am talking to pervert Quinell when somebody uses the name Diya to describe that lying dirty scum Patrick Lumumba. This man may well have been RG accomplice...they knew each other. Diyas phone was pinged near the cottage that night and he suspiciously changed out his sim card right after the murder...hummm.

 

[Bob001]

Bob001

Taking someone into custody and arresting them are the same thing.

So if Raffaele had said "I'm not coming with you" or "I'll be there tomorrow with my Dad and my lawyer," the cops would have had to actually arrest him to bring him in? Under Italian law, they couldn't have forced him to appear otherwise? Suppose the cops had dragged him in over his protests? Would he have had any realistic chance of redress? (In the U.S. there are distinctions to be made between "detention" and "arrest," but they wouldn't apply to Raffaele's situation.)

 

[Dan O.]

Bill, did that person you witnessed locking the door, just so happen to murder someone violently ? Also, did they lock that door with a set of keys they had never used before with no idea if they even had a key that could even lock that door? Sorry, It is not possible.

Have you been paying attention to recent developments in this thread or are you still stuck in 2008/2009?

 

[Grinder]

Have you been paying attention to recent developments in this thread or are you still stuck in 2008/2009?

As best as I can understand his theory, Rudi killed Meredith walked or ran out of the door and just kept going straight out of the house never to return. He lied about the sweatshirt and didn't clean himself at all. He didn't return with the towels. Most importantly it would be impossible for him to return to the room with shoes not leaving prints, just because. He would have had to have gone through her purse immediately and whatever else he did in her room.

It is totally ridiculous to argue that there is no way he returned to the room and then locked the door.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill, did that person you witnessed locking the door, just so happen to murder someone violently ? Also, did they lock that door with a set of keys they had never used before with no idea if they even had a key that could even lock that door? Sorry, It is not possible.

I'm just telling you what I saw. You keep upping the ante. You seem really wedded to this idea and will defend it from all comers.

Great!

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Rolfe......

I distinctly recall just recently in this very thread Rolfe ridiculing that specific bit of pro-guilt fanfiction, the idea that the stress of an attack might miraculously halt digestion like a stopped clock in an Agatha Christie mystery. Rolfe's professional opinion was that was ridiculous, and that diarrhoea or vomiting were far more likely responses to ongoing stress.

The idea that Meredith might have been tortured for an hour while her stomach contents stayed perfectly still in a state of suspended animation has no basis in the scientific literature. It's purely the result of scientifically ignorant and partisan readers finding a snippet they liked the sound of ("stress can slow or halt digestion") and deciding that this snippet meant a complete open season on the time of death.

Why didn't the defense mention this when they appealed?

My understanding is that the defence were prepared to do so, but Hellmann's minimalist approach to the appeal was just to test Curatolo's attack on the defendants' alibi, and the DNA evidence purportedly putting them at the scene, and then declare that with those planks of the prosecution case removed that there was no case to answer.

The defence won without having to contest the time of death, and so this line of argument turned out to be unnecessary. In an important sense, the time of death doesn't matter, because the prosecution case fails whether the time of death was 21:05 or 23:30. This just shows that there are multiple, redundant ways to demolish the prosecution case.

And what kind of computer do these guys have that can tell that? Your telling me it knew, (I'm calling the computer an it), that both Amanda and Raff were at his apartment during this time, that is amazing to say the least.

A Mac.

I'm surprised you weren't aware, but part of the Mac OS called "Spotlight" keeps track of when files were last opened. It's quite handy because I might remember I watched a movie file yesterday but forget the name of the file. Hey presto, I search for files whose "last opened" metadata says they were last opened yesterday and I find the file I want.

The Spotlight metadata shows someone was watching cartoons on Raffale's laptop that evening, at exactly the time your theory needs them to be out and about bent on nefarious acts. Thus your theory is falsified and you need a new one which fits with reality.

First, the attack started likely shortly after Meredith got home, no one, and I mean no one other than the actual murderer or murderers know how long it lasted, they may not even know this, I suspect she died around 9:30 maybe near 10:00.

This is astronomically unlikely. Strictly wishful thinking based on an inadequate, amateur understanding of the relevant science.

Mine is no pet theory, I've looked at every aspect of this crime and looked at every possible outcome, I tend to lean between the most likely, as in that footprint going out of Meredith door that no one seems to have a logical answer for other than Rudi did not lock that door. I an fully confident that if the truth is ever know, many on this board will be giving silent praise my way.....

You've "looked at every aspect of this crime" but you weren't even aware of the Spotlight metadata? Nor of what the competent experts have to say about the time of death?

I submit that maybe you've looked, but you cannot have looked rigorously or with sufficient impartiality.

 

[Dan O.]

It is totally ridiculous to argue that there is no way he returned to the room and then locked the door.

This must be a new meaning of the term "argue" for which I am unfamiliar.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

L

I


You've "looked at every aspect of this crime" but you weren't even aware of the Spotlight metadata? Nor of what the competent experts have to say about the time of death?

I submit that maybe you've looked, but you cannot have looked rigorously or with sufficient impartiality.

No wonder the only people who can talk or understand a FOAKER is another FOAKER. So, you claim this Spotlight metadata can tell if one or more people are present at any given time, to bad your not on the defense team, they could use a guy like you.

 

[Bill Williams]

L

No wonder the only people who can talk or understand a FOAKER is another FOAKER. So, you claim this Spotlight metadata can tell if one or more people are present at any given time, to bad your not on the defense team, they could use a guy like you.

I was going to say something about what it means when someone resorts to name calling in an argument, but I think you already know.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I was going to say something about what it means when someone resorts to name calling in an argument, but I think you already know.

The truth must hurt some more than others, but really, the only people that can discuss this trail with a Foaker is another Foaker, what are you guys afraid of. I've tried, I suppose I knew before what the result would be but at least if the truth is ever know, you will all know who was right all along and hopefully you will have learnt something along the way as well.

 

[DrTesla]

One suspects Amanda Knox's favorite movie is Footloose.

 

[Bill Williams]

The truth must hurt some more than others, but really, the only people that can discuss this trail with a Foaker is another Foaker, what are you guys afraid of. I've tried, I suppose I knew before what the result would be but at least if the truth is ever know, you will all know who was right all along and hopefully you will have learnt something along the way as well.

Wow. You're mad!