Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Sherlock Holmes]

Amanda's book relates that she told the cops she was having feminine issues but was not allowed to go to the ladies room. That would seem to qualify as hindering freedom of movement. Raffaele's book indicates that a cop threatened him with a severe beating if he went to see why Amanda cried out. That is surely hindering freedom of movement. More fundamentally, there is ample evidence that the two were de fact suspects before they even walked in the door to the station, as has been discussed here many times.

Well, if they said that, I did not know that, I guess they must be innocent then, where did I go wrong, oh wait, I remember, I don't believe a lot of what they say which is why I don't believe they are totally innocent.

 

[Dan O.]

I'm looking at the blood traces in the common area - F, G, H, I, J and Y.

F, H, I and Y look like more left shoe prints, growing fainter with every step. But the arrangement depicts something other than an uninterrupted progression toward the exit. He paused and moved around in that area for some reason.

G and J have a distinct appearance - similar to each other, but different from the shoe prints. I can only guess - maybe he had an overcoat bunched under his arm. There was some blood on the hem, and he brushed it against the floor when he held it by the collar before putting it on. It could be lots of things.

I'm seeing the same thing. Except that I will add the multiple prints at 5, the single prints at 3, 2 and the new print at the pink bag join with F, I and Y as one continuous uninterrupted trail from Meredith's room to the front door.

But then there is "H". It is similar to Y but with 2 impressions at different angles and facing not towards the door but bact towards the bedrooms.

This morning I spotted another shoe print with the concentric circles. It was very faint and almost didn't show up in the glow of the luminol enhanced splotch that almost resembles a bare foot. They unfortunately didn't Provide an orientating overview for the luminol shots so I'm not sure where this print is or which way it is facing.

The luminol photos were not taken as a a general survey. And given the disparity between the bright splotch and the print, it's no wonder why we don't see Rudy's shoe prints returning down the hall. The one print was caught by accident simply because it was close to one of the splotches.

 

[Dan O.]

Whats the trick? I have to tediously highlight and quote individual parts of a big post to show my response below each point.

Is there a better, faster way?

When I turn off java script because I am browsing to questionable sites, none of those fancy tools in the edit page work. I have to type the individual brackets and tag names. Your way is better.

 

[DrTesla]

Raffaele Sollecito Lying in an Effort to Explain Away the DNA on the Knife

When the news that the DNA test of the knife had come back and that Meredith's DNA had been found on the knife Raffaele did not deny it or proclaim that it was impossible. Raffaele didn't dispute the results but rather was quick to explain them.

The fact that Meredith’s DNA is on my kitchen knife is because once, when we were all cooking together, I accidentally pricked her hand.

Twice Sollecito repeated the story of how Meredith had come over for dinner and that while he was preparing fish for the three of them he was playing around and pricked Meredith with that very knife. His story goes on to claim that Meredith did not find it funny and was displeased so he apologized and she forgave him.

The problem with Raffaele's story is that it would turn out to be a complete fabrication. Not only had it never happened but Meredith had never even been to Raffaele's apartment. Raffaele just made it up. It was a lie to explain away damning evidence of the couple's involvement in the murder.

from http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/index.php?title=The_Double_DNA_Knife

 

[DrTesla]

Contamination at the Laboratory

Of the three options for an innocent explanations contamination at the laboratory is the one that on the surface would appear to be the greatest concern. Laboratories follow strict procedures and do negative tests to insure against contamination but the sample on the knife was an LCN sample and we know that at least twenty items with Meredith's DNA had been tested in the laboratory before the knife. The argument that the reason Meredith's DNA ended up on the knife was because of laboratory contamination while improbable it might be a possible criticism from scientists such as Conti and Vecchiotti who are highly suspicious of LCN DNA.

Where the argument for laboratory contamination hits a dead end is with the testing schedule. No material related to Meredith's murder was tested in Stefanoni's laboratory for the six days prior to the knife. It is one thing to argue that the testing of the bra clasp just prior to the testing of the knife led to contamination but with a six day gap contamination is not possible. It is inconceivable that Meredith's DNA would survive multiple days of cleaning protocols. Further if a source of Meredith's DNA was present and acting as a contaminate then Meredith's profile should have appeared in the testing of materials completely unrelated to her murder. This would have been an immediate sign that something was wrong and the lab would have been able to address the issue.

Conti and Vecchiotti were appointed by Judge Hellmann to be impartial independent reviewers of the DNA evidence but quite quickly it became apparent that they were biased against the prosecution and there was even allegations and evidence indicating they were working with the defence but even Carla Vecchiotti confirmed that contamination at the laboratory was not possible.[5] if there was a six day gap in the testing of materials related to this case. It seemed painful to Vecchiotti but she said ruled out contamination and as such if an expert as hostile to the prosecution as Carla Vecchiotti ruled it out so can we -- Contamination at the laboratory is excluded as a possibility.

from http://themurderofmeredithkercher.co...uble_DNA_Knife

 

[DrTesla]

Secondary Transfer

Secondary transfer is the process when someone transfers someone else's DNA. An argument for secondary transfer is close to impossible.

Despite what television shows about forensics would have us believe DNA is not everywhere nor does it transfer easily. A study of DNA transfer during simulated manual strangulation resulted in less than 66% of participants transferring their DNA to the victim.[6] The amount of force and contact required to strangle someone greatly exceeds any conceivable contact Knox would have with the sharp-end of a knife but the study is referenced solely to show the degree of contact required for DNA transfer to occur. In a more relevant study Phipps and Petricevic discovered that when a subject handled a sterile tube 51-70% failed to transfer their DNA to the tube.[7] Given what science tells us what people interested in considering this case need to do is forget everything that television has said about DNA. Television has mislead you. Dry touch transfer of DNA is actually very hard.

The studies above though are discussing primary transfer. For Meredith's DNA to end up on the knife through innocent transfer what would need to happen is that Meredith would first transfer her DNA to Knox and then Knox would transfer the DNA to the knife. This is commonly called secondary transfer. Another study by Phipps and Petricevic found that little or no secondary transfer happens.[8] This makes intuitive sense given how difficult primary transfer is. If secondary transfer is unlikely under experimental conditions it would be even less likely under real conditions do to the added risk of the other person's DNA being destroyed in all the other interactions one typically has.

The location of the DNA makes this unlikely event even less likely. The amount of pressure and friction are major considerations in dry transfer.[9] Since Meredith's DNA was on the blade of a knife it is difficult to imagine a scenario where Knox would have been applying the necessary force and friction for transfer to occur. The location where Meredith's DNA was not discovered even without scientific considerations is extremely unlikely. Meredith's DNA was not found anywhere else in Raffaele's apartment. What is the probability that the only instance of secondary transfer would involve the blade of a knife that is compatible with the knife used to murder the person whose DNA is found?

Lastly there is the issue that the DNA profile found on the knife blade is not a mixed sample. A review of the literature of secondary transfer has failed to find a single reported case of secondary transfer occurring without simultaneous primary transfer occurring. That is to say that if Amanda was the vehicle by which Meredith's DNA was transferred to the knife then Amanda's DNA should also be present and we know that it isn't. When given the choice of accepting the possibility of this being the first observed instance of something that has never been observed before during controlled experiments or accepting that the DNA was on the knife because it was used in the murder the correct answer is obvious.

 

[Mary_H]

As soon as she implicated Patrick her status changed so their actions changed.

Yes, that was when they ran right out and got her a lawyer. Who took three days to get there.

 

[anglolawyer]

You don't find it curious that pages are ripped out of her diary the month before the murder? Now a jail tale has her cellmate ripping out pages an interesting add on.Sollecito remembers sending emails now doesn't that faze you. Fine, just look at Knox's own words that shift the truth. She claims she was told to hurry and write her statement. Another account she says they told her to take her time. Donnino's account of when Amanda named Lumumba makes sense. Three people were present they asked her why she didn't have to go to work. She says her boss sent her a text not to come in. She doesn't remember responding, fair enough, they show her the text and she freaks out . Donnino said that was the moment she covered her ears and said "its him". no hitting , no calling her a liar . There are enough lies coming from Amanda and shifting stories by her own hand.

Fair enough? Do you believe she had forgotten this message? According to you she either had perfect recall of everything or she's guilty.

Re: the diary pages, what was written in them? I am not just unfazed, I have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[DrTesla]

Contamination During Collection

Meredith had never been to Raffaele's apartment and the forensic team that searched Raffaele's apartment had no personnel in common with the forensic team that searched the cottage. Dr Marco Chiacchiera was the only person who attended both the cottage and Raffaele's apartment but he did not handle the knife. Further there was a four day gap between the search of the cottage and the search of Raffaele's apartment making it extremely unlikely that any kind of secondary transfer would be possible. There was no means by which any of the technicians who did the collection could have come in contact with Meredith's way and without a source of Meredith's DNA there is no possibility of contamination.

 

[DrTesla]

I think one thing we fail to point out that if somehow contamination occurred, in either the case of the double dna knife or the bra clasp, which were found in two different locations, it doesn't seem possible that some kind of innocent contamination would have happened in BOTH the bra clasp and double dna knife. that's just REAL bad luck if you are the accused if true and probably the first murder case where a double contamination of two pieces of evidence found in different locations has occured.

so we need to stop talking about contamination and just admit Dr. Stef planted DNA evidence on both the bra clasp and the double DNA knife. She also made the sample on the knife blade extremely small so she could show off her DNA analysis skills, probably in an apparent attempt to lobby for a promotion.

knox no doubt reminded Dr. Stef of the snotty hot cheerleader girl in highschool who was always making fun of Dr. Stef for being a nerd and socially awkward around boys. Dr. Stef wanted payback. LOL

 

[DrTesla]

one gets the strong sense that the Silent Majority, the lurkers on this form who never or rarely comment, have started to turn on Knox and Raffe, and justice is on the horizon. we must stay the course.

 

[yimyammer]

Raffaele Sollecito Lying in an Effort to Explain Away the DNA on the Knife

When the news that the DNA test of the knife had come back and that Meredith's DNA had been found on the knife Raffaele did not deny it or proclaim that it was impossible. Raffaele didn't dispute the results but rather was quick to explain them.

The fact that Meredith’s DNA is on my kitchen knife is because once, when we were all cooking together, I accidentally pricked her hand.

Twice Sollecito repeated the story of how Meredith had come over for dinner and that while he was preparing fish for the three of them he was playing around and pricked Meredith with that very knife. His story goes on to claim that Meredith did not find it funny and was displeased so he apologized and she forgave him.

The problem with Raffaele's story is that it would turn out to be a complete fabrication. Not only had it never happened but Meredith had never even been to Raffaele's apartment. Raffaele just made it up. It was a lie to explain away damning evidence of the couple's involvement in the murder.

from http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/index.php?title=The_Double_DNA_Knife

Wasn't this discussed up thread and apparently Raf didn't say Meredith came over to his house but that Raf was at Meredith's flat when he claimed he pricked her with the knife?

Which is it?

Is there an independent source that can be cited in order to settle this once and for all?

Seems like everything in this damn case is like this, maddening....

 

[DrTesla]

Seems like everything in this damn case is like this, maddening....

that's what happens when you are guilty, you get caught in your own web of lies. Raffe, being the son of a physician, understood immediately that he couldn't convincely argue the DNA wasn't the victim's DNA on the blade of the knife. He knew he had to explain the victim's DNA on the blade and he really did the best that he could to explain it, and conveniently tells a story about pricking the victim at his house with only Knox as a witness. My guess is he thought that there would be no way for the police to verify that Meredith went to his house and cooked with him.

 

[yimyammer]

I think one thing we fail to point out that if somehow contamination occurred, in either the case of the double dna knife or the bra clasp, which were found in two different locations, it doesn't seem possible that some kind of innocent contamination would have happened in BOTH the bra clasp and double dna knife. that's just REAL bad luck if you are the accused if true and probably the first murder case where a double contamination of two pieces of evidence found in different locations has occured.

so we need to stop talking about contamination and just admit Dr. Stef planted DNA evidence on both the bra clasp and the double DNA knife. She also made the sample on the knife blade extremely small so she could show off her DNA analysis skills, probably in an apparent attempt to lobby for a promotion.

knox no doubt reminded Dr. Stef of the snotty hot cheerleader girl in highschool who was always making fun of Dr. Stef for being a nerd and socially awkward around boys. Dr. Stef wanted payback. LOL

Assuming someone were to try this, would it even be necessary to plant? Couldn't she just write up a report saying thats what she found? How would anyone know the difference?

I'm not saying she did, I'm just curious how one would go about planting something so small that very few people could even verify, especially if the process of identifying the DNA destroys the sample and doesn't leave anything for other people to retest.

I'm probably way off since I'm again venturing into the DNA stuff I'm not very educated on.

 

[yimyammer]

that's what happens when you are guilty, you get caught in your own web of lies. Raffe, being the son of a physician, understood immediately that he couldn't convincely argue the DNA wasn't the victim's DNA on the blade of the knife. He knew he had to explain the victim's DNA on the blade and he really did the best that he could to explain it, and conveniently tells a story about pricking the victim at his house with only Knox as a witness. My guess is he thought that there would be no way for the police to verify that Meredith went to his house and cooked with him.

you missed or ignored my point

 

[DrTesla]

one thing that always perplexed me is why Raffe and Knox, who both pride themselves as being clever people, would take the knife back to his house after they had butchered poor sweet Meredith in the slaughterhouse.

it's my understanding that the knife belonged to the owner of the house, and I'm assuming the house was furnished across the board, which I had not known previously. therefore, it was probable the owner would notice this large knife was missing, and Raffe would have to account for it, so that is why he decided to try to clean it with bleach, and he was almost successful with that, save the small amount that remain in the tiny scratch on the knife. One has to conclude that there must have been quite a bit of victim DNA on the blade, if this small sample managed to survive a vigorous scrubbing by Rafffe using a cleaning agent like bleach that would be capable of destroying DNA, at least to some extent.

looks like he should have ditched the knife and taken his chances with explaining why it was missing, because the DNA evidence found on it is much more daming, and I'm sure Knox could have come up with a creative reason why the knife was missing, given her formal education and natural skill in creative writing.

 

[DrTesla]

Assuming someone were to try this, would it even be necessary to plant? Couldn't she just write up a report saying thats what she found? How would anyone know the difference?

I'm not saying she did, I'm just curious how one would go about planting something so small that very few people could even verify, especially if the process of identifying the DNA destroys the sample and doesn't leave anything for other people to retest.

I'm probably way off since I'm again venturing into the DNA stuff I'm not very educated on.

well since at least 4 other forensic experts looked at the same DNA and backed up Dr Stef's findings, we would also have to accuse them of just writing up a report saying that is what they found without finding it. so we are talking about a vast criminal conspiracy amongst forensic experts who seemingly would have no reason to want to frame Knox and Raffe. they say follow the money, so it seems imperative to see if any of these DNA experts obtained a large sum of money, maybe in some offshore accounts, during these proceedings. GIven the fact Mignini was involved in this case, and as I've conceded, he's a Dirty Harry type who plays for keeps, we cannot rule out some foul play in this case. he is capable of anything if he had no moral qualms about constantly referring to Rudy as "poor, poor Rudy" thoughhout the trial simply to tweak the accused Amanda Knox. he even made this young woman cry at several points throughout the trial, and I had never heard of any prosecuter making a young woman cry during a trial.

really, if Knox is innocent, these people must having been framing her, as it appears we gain rule out any contamination of the DNA evidence.

 

[Kaosium]

But Raf kissing Amanda was a sure sign of a murderer does that mean that Ivano...

Maybe they should haul him in!

There was also the "blond" hair in Meredith's hand that was lost. The defense also asked for testing of Meredith's fingernails but the ILE probably decided that those findings wouldn't p[rove a date?

Heh, that reminds me of one of the sillier excuses in this case, that they didn't test the putative semen stain because it might have been from any time. In the abstract, that's true of course, but considering where it was found, right next to the body on the pillowcase if I recall correctly, smeared by Rudy's shoeprint (another silly excuse as they had plenty of those and that's rather suggestive it was still malleable when the print was made) that makes me wonder if they realized what that suggested about Meredith's hygiene! She had clothes in the laundry, she didn't wash her bedding and it had been there for who knows how long? Ewww!

You flatter me, Kaosium. I am not familiar with the inside story on Ivano. Perhaps you are mixing me up with one of the other ladies here who bought the "Pigs of Perugia 2007" calendar.

Dontcha remember joking about the horny guys at the police station so interested in Amanda's atheletic abilities? Caused quite a stir back in the Cartwheel's thread, the Bard created an account just to admonish you as I recall. Ivano was that police officer who went up and asked Amanda if she could do the splits.

No, my favorite official is definitely Amanda's own personal male guard in Capanne, who after her "positive" HIV test told her generously that he would have sex with her anyway. Now that's what I call humanity!

Ugh. I'm sure that 'comforted' her. Locked up with guys who had authority over her with indiscriminate and risky sexual mores...

I don't know that one, is it in her book?

 

[DrTesla]

Maybe they should haul him in!



Heh, that reminds me of one of the sillier excuses in this case, that they didn't test the putative semen stain because it might have been from any time. In the abstract, that's true of course, but considering where it was found, right next to the body on the pillowcase if I recall correctly, smeared by Rudy's shoeprint (another silly excuse as they had plenty of those and that's rather suggestive it was still malleable when the print was made) that makes me wonder if they realized what that suggested about Meredith's hygiene! She had clothes in the laundry, she didn't wash her bedding and it had been there for who knows how long? Ewww!



Dontcha remember joking about the horny guys at the police station so interested in Amanda's atheletic abilities? Caused quite a stir back in the Cartwheel's thread, the Bard created an account just to admonish you as I recall. Ivano was that police officer who went up and asked Amanda if she could do the splits.



Ugh. I'm sure that 'comforted' her. Locked up with guys who had authority over her with indiscriminate and risky sexual mores...

I don't know that one, is it in her book?

lol, that prison guard had a good sense of humor. and one wouldn't be surprised to see Knox include yet another, eighth, sex partner on her list, this guard, when the next false positive test for HIV arrived. one thing nobody disputes, including Knox, is she liked GETTING IT ON.

 

[yimyammer]

well since at least 4 other forensic experts looked at the same DNA and backed up Dr Stef's findings, we would also have to accuse them of just writing up a report saying that is what they found without finding it. so we are talking about a vast criminal conspiracy amongst forensic experts who seemingly would have no reason to want to frame Knox and Raffe. they say follow the money, so it seems imperative to see if any of these DNA experts obtained a large sum of money, maybe in some offshore accounts, during these proceedings. GIven the fact Mignini was involved in this case, and as I've conceded, he's a Dirty Harry type who plays for keeps, we cannot rule out some foul play in this case. he is capable of anything if he had no moral qualms about constantly referring to Rudy as "poor, poor Rudy" thoughhout the trial simply to tweak the accused Amanda Knox. he even made this young woman cry at several points throughout the trial, and I had never heard of any prosecuter making a young woman cry during a trial.

really, if Knox is innocent, these people must having been framing her, as it appears we gain rule out any contamination of the DNA evidence.

lol, you either don't comprehend or ignore posts and just ramble on about whatever floats your boat instead of addressing the question of the poster

This response in no way addresses my question and there was nothing to fear about my question, it wasn't a trap. I'm truly curious how someone could plant something as small as DNA.

I guess you could drug someone and then swab their mouths. Follow them around and see if the spit and then swab up the spittle? Rob a sperm bank?