Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Briars]

The fact that she is convicted of the calumnia doesn't mean that she in fact freely lied under the circumstances. Hellmann while not reversing the calumnia said that she should have withstood the pressure of the police.

She was not the first person to be convicted of a crime they didn't commit.

This PG talking point pales next to the statement by the chief that they knew what was correct before she signed the inaccurate statement. No PGP can explain how they knew Patrick was involved before Amanda's interrogation.

She revealed in Oggi this week that she felt shocked by Sollecito's withdrawal of her alibi.That ended the romance. Any lingering pretending that the pair good friends is as fabricated as the 'friendship' Amanda had with Meredith. It is more about holding potential enemies close. The "pressure" at the station was the unexpected betrayal while the pair were separated.There were not 20 officers, Mignini was not present, she was offered snacks and someone even held her hand. She was not hit or even screamed at. We also learned she has a habit of rapping herself on the forehead when she's angry. Her torment was internal , she was treated well and will now suffer the consequences of that slander.

 

[Grinder]

Henceforth, I decree that every time you mention this you also repeat that De Felice said at the same press conference they found text messages from Lumumba on her phone fixing a meeting,

“Lots of people came and went through her house and she was unfortunately at the crossroads when this group came together.” De Felice also confirmed the contents of the statements that had been published in Italian newspapers but refused to add any further detail.

He said that the three had continually changed their stories and that things “just didn’t add up.” He explained:”Initially the American gave a version of events which we knew was not correct. “She buckled and made an admission of facts that we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in.

the much disputed even by Amanda contention

The police, delighted with their achievement at solving the crime so quickly, promptly staged a press conference the next day at which Arturo De Felice, head of the police, said this, according to the Daily Telegraph, a reputable British newspaper:

"She crumbled. She confessed. There were holes in her alibi. Her mobile phone records were crucial."

He said Knox's claims that she was elsewhere had been demonstrated to be false. The police found text messages on her phone from Lumumba, fixing a meeting between them at 8.35pm on the night Miss Kercher died.

(off stage heel click)

 

[Grinder]

She revealed in Oggi this week that she felt shocked by Sollecito's withdrawal of her alibi.That ended the romance. Any lingering pretending that the pair good friends is as fabricated as the 'friendship' Amanda had with Meredith. It is more about holding potential enemies close. The "pressure" at the station was the unexpected betrayal while the pair were separated.There were not 20 officers, Mignini was not present, she was offered snacks and someone even held her hand. She was not hit or even screamed at. We also learned she has a habit of rapping herself on the forehead when she's angry. Her torment was internal , she was treated well and will now suffer the consequences of that slander.

Thanks for clearing up how the police knew Patrick was the man before she spoke. I said 12. Mignini was at the station just not in the room. Why do you keep up the snack thing? How do you know she wasn't hit, did you see the video? Patrick said he was hit but recanted after counsel advised him.

Of course them telling her she had no alibi would be very stressful, whether she did or didn't.

 

[Antony]

She revealed in Oggi this week that she felt shocked by Sollecito's withdrawal of her alibi.That ended the romance. Any lingering pretending that the pair good friends is as fabricated as the 'friendship' Amanda had with Meredith. It is more about holding potential enemies close. The "pressure" at the station was the unexpected betrayal while the pair were separated.There were not 20 officers, Mignini was not present, she was offered snacks and someone even held her hand. She was not hit or even screamed at. We also learned she has a habit of rapping herself on the forehead when she's angry. Her torment was internal , she was treated well and will now suffer the consequences of that slander.

OK - please provide a reference to the video recordings that verify this sequence of events.

 

[Antony]

What a joke. Amanda will be getting Social Security before those rejects from clown college even open her case.

Whether or not this is true, it doesn't alter the point. The "evidence" supporting Amanda's conviction on the callunia charge consists of statements obtained illegally, which in themselves could not possibly justify or excuse the Perugia police's treatment of Patrick Lumumba.

It may well be many years, or never, before ECHR considers this conviction. If Italy ultimately faces reality and clears Amanda and Raff of the murder (thereby avoiding an ECHR hearing on that account) it's interesting to speculate whether Amanda will actually pursue justice on the callunia conviction. But if she does and it reaches the European court, then the outcome will be a no-brainer.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

OK - please provide a reference to the video recordings that verify this sequence of events.

Indeed, they could have avoided this entire controversy even with an audio recording. They recorded every other interview with Amanda and Raffaele. They tapped their phones and recorded every call. They even bugged the room where Amanda and Raffaele were waiting, and recorded that. They recorded everything, obsessively - except the one interview that is of greatest importance to their case.

 

[Bill Williams]

The fact that she is convicted of the calumnia doesn't mean that she in fact freely lied under the circumstances. Hellmann while not reversing the calumnia said that she should have withstood the pressure of the police.

She was not the first person to be convicted of a crime they didn't commit.

This PG talking point pales next to the statement by the chief that they knew what was correct before she signed the inaccurate statement. No PGP can explain how they knew Patrick was involved before Amanda's interrogation.

She revealed in Oggi this week that she felt shocked by Sollecito's withdrawal of her alibi.That ended the romance. Any lingering pretending that the pair good friends is as fabricated as the 'friendship' Amanda had with Meredith. It is more about holding potential enemies close. The "pressure" at the station was the unexpected betrayal while the pair were separated.There were not 20 officers, Mignini was not present, she was offered snacks and someone even held her hand. She was not hit or even screamed at. We also learned she has a habit of rapping herself on the forehead when she's angry. Her torment was internal , she was treated well and will now suffer the consequences of that slander.

You're doing this just to cause me the pain of agreeing with Grinder...

The friendship with Meredith was no fabrication. Even as Mignini at the 1st trial called witnesses to cast doubt on the friendship, Judge Massei found it all unconvincing and said in his motivations report that the two had a normal friendship, and a normal living arrangement. There was nothing ever presented, except by Rudy Guede, of anything abnormal. So just keep on saying it - through sheer repetition you might find some people to believe this.

And as for the remaining friendship between AK and RS... who are we to believe - you? Or our lying eyes?

 

[yimyammer]

Originally Posted by DrTesla
is there an easy way to quote specific statements by somebody in a piecemeal way like I tried in my previous post. that was real tedious.

Yes, we do it all the time.

Whats the trick? I have to tediously highlight and quote individual parts of a big post to show my response below each point.

Is there a better, faster way?

 

[yimyammer]

Just a question. Could Raffaele (theoretically still a "witness") have refused to go to the police station? Could he have said "This is not a good time, guys, I'll drop by in the morning?" Or "I've said all I care to. Leave me alone." Could they have taken him into custody without arresting him, or would that automatically have made him a suspect? (I continue to be unable to grasp why Raffaele or his Dad didn't get a lawyer. It doesn't require legal sophistication to think that if the police demand you come to the station immediately late at night it might indicate a problem.)

No, but it might only require naivety by someone who knows they're innocent & thinking they're glad to try and help the police solve the murder in any way they can, so it doesn't cross their minds to lawyer up. I would think this would be especially applicable to someone in their early 20's with minimal life experience.

Additionally, I have seen several interviews with investigators of murders who found the husband of a murdered victim suspicious when the husband immediately lawyered up (and the husband was later determined not to have anything to do with the crime)

Kind of seems like they're damned if they do, damned if they don't

 

[yimyammer]

You can stand by someone someone who is a convicted liar and continues to embellish, change and have a different account from Sollecito. Do you believe Mignini was present for her interview or not? Do you believe Sollecito when he said they tried to make a secret deal to implicate Amanda? Your the one living in a fairy tale fantasy. The books and the public speaking have only widened the cracks in their credibility.

I've never heard of this one before, can you elaborate and provide any sources you have please.

thanks

 

[anglolawyer]

Bob001

Taking someone into custody and arresting them are the same thing.

 

[GWCarver]

I was looking around and found this take on the Supreme Court decision:

Knox’s attorney, Theodore Simon, told TODAY that the student and her family were confident her acquittal would be upheld.

He characterized the outcome of Tuesday’s court decision as a "revision" of the case, as opposed to a retrial, saying: "Merely because they have sent it back for revision does not mean that anything else will happen other than she will be recognized as not guilty and the same thing will happen again."

“From what I understand, [Court of Cassation judges] have sent [the case] back for revision and reconsideration. They will review it. They may simply affirm that there was a ‘not guilty’ before and it should remain the same. They may seek to take some further evidence, but nothing has really changed.”

Does anyone think the Supreme Court would actually overturn an acquittal just to have it reviewed after all of these years? It seems unlikely to me. But, if the decision turns out to have been based in any way on the results of the Guede case, they are just going to look like a bunch of morons, IMO.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...o-be-retried-for-meredith-kercher-murder?lite

 

[Briars]

Amanda said that Mignini questioned her , so guess she's claiming he was in the room.Is that true? clearly no but was a gross embellishment of her tale. Amanda admitted she came up with the name herself when they looked at her phone. Do you think it was surprising that the police wanted to check her phone after learning she'd gone out? Why do you think she screamed and covered her ears? Why did she say earlier that she wasn't physically hurt only scared? Would it be reasonable to be scared when you were afraid of being discovered.? Is there really a reason to believe everyone including Anna is lying.Think about it if we listed everyone who lied for no reason other to punish ' the white girl' it would be extensive. I'm sure they offered the witness snacks and held her hand .Donino appears far more credible and consistent then Amanda and has no reason to lie. Just for fun do you think her cellmate ripped pages out of her diary or was that just Amanda trying to tie up loose ends? The book and tour has pretty much squashed any sympathy for Amanda Knox.

 

[Briars]

Before Simon took on Amanda's case he can be viewed talking about the case against her and called it formidable.

 

[DrTesla]

I was looking around and found this take on the Supreme Court decision:

Knox’s attorney, Theodore Simon, told TODAY that the student and her family were confident her acquittal would be upheld.

He characterized the outcome of Tuesday’s court decision as a "revision" of the case, as opposed to a retrial, saying: "Merely because they have sent it back for revision does not mean that anything else will happen other than she will be recognized as not guilty and the same thing will happen again."

“From what I understand, [Court of Cassation judges] have sent [the case] back for revision and reconsideration. They will review it. They may simply affirm that there was a ‘not guilty’ before and it should remain the same. They may seek to take some further evidence, but nothing has really changed.”

Does anyone think the Supreme Court would actually overturn an acquittal just to have it reviewed after all of these years? It seems unlikely to me. But, if the decision turns out to have been based in any way on the results of the Guede case, they are just going to look like a bunch of morons, IMO.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...o-be-retried-for-meredith-kercher-murder?lite

Simon doesn't seem to understand the Italian justice system process, which is somewhat sad given he's a lawyer.

no appeals trial is supposed to be a retrial. it supposed to look at how the first trial was conducted, and function as a review that everything was done properly, as I understand. this isn't how the first appeals trial under Hellmann was conducted, and he flippantly dismissed facts that were established in the first trial and witnesses seen as credible in the first trial. the point in the Supreme Court rejecting Hellman's verdict is they want the appeals trial to be conducted properly. at this point, the two accused are considered guilty b/c that was the result of the first trial, and the hellman appeals acquittal was tossed. it is much much more likely the two accused will be found guilty in the new appeals b/c all the shady aspects in the first appeals trial will not take place in the 2nd appeals trial b/c it is understood the Supreme Court will slap down any verdict that results from an unlevel playing field.

people don't seem to understand that the two accused were real lucky to be in Italy b/c in many countries like the USA you don't get an automatic appeals trial like the two accused did in Italy. the Italian system is very pro-defendant yet the two accused appear to be in dire straights regardless.

 

[anglolawyer]

Amanda said that Mignini questioned her , so guess she's claiming he was in the room.Is that true? clearly no but was a gross embellishment of her tale. Amanda admitted she came up with the name herself when they looked at her phone. Do you think it was surprising that the police wanted to check her phone after learning she'd gone out? Why do you think she screamed and covered her ears? Why did she say earlier that she wasn't physically hurt only scared? Would it be reasonable to be scared when you were afraid of being discovered.? Is there really a reason to believe everyone including Anna is lying.Think about it if we listed everyone who lied for no reason other to punish ' the white girl' it would be extensive. I'm sure they offered the witness snacks and held her hand .Donino appears far more credible and consistent then Amanda and has no reason to lie. Just for fun do you think her cellmate ripped pages out of her diary or was that just Amanda trying to tie up loose ends? The book and tour has pretty much squashed any sympathy for Amanda Knox.

Speaking for myself, I am not in the least interested in which pages were ripped out of her diary or when but if you could explain how that ties up with the murder that would be interesting.

If the cops deny hitting her, shouting at her, making her scream, pressuring her, tag-teaming then I would say they are all liars. Mignini questioned her for the second statement, not the first. As there is no issue about that on either side I don't see your point.

 

[toto]

12.47/3.47 phone call

In The Galati-Costagliola Prosecution Appeal to the Supreme Court of Cassation in the matter of The People and Republic of Italy against Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as translated by the PerugiaMurderFile.org (PMF) site, (and easily found on that website as one of the first things you see) the prosecution make quite a big deal (p.68 -73) about the 12.47 call Amanda made to the USA (being 3.47 a.m there) on the basis that nothing had happened, yet Raffaele phoned his sister at 12.50.34 and to the carabinieri at 12.57. Wasn’t the whole point that A and R were there was because of disquiet about what was going on? She had seen some blood and unexplained faeces already. And for someone worried enough to ring her mother, why did she not want clear off back to the U.S. as soon as possible? Why does the prosecution talk about the phone call being "around noon" when later they say 12.47?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

It's rather depressing that all this nonsense about insufficient panic or too much panic or lamps and whatever is still going on.

If Amanda and Raffaele were at home when Meredith died, they didn't do it. There is absolutely no getting around that.

Meredith almost certainly died around 21:05, by 21:30 maybe at the very latest. Amanda and Raffaele were watching cartoons until 21:49 at the earliest, although it's very likely it can be proven they were home all night.

That's all you need to know. If you know that, you know they didn't do it.

That's all you need to believe. If you believe that, you know they didn't do it

There, I corrected your mistake for you. I hope that OK with you.

 

[Briars]

Speaking for myself, I am not in the least interested in which pages were ripped out of her diary or when but if you could explain how that ties up with the murder that would be interesting.

If the cops deny hitting her, shouting at her, making her scream, pressuring her, tag-teaming then I would say they are all liars. Mignini questioned her for the second statement, not the first. As there is no issue about that on either side I don't see your point.

You don't find it curious that pages are ripped out of her diary the month before the murder? Now a jail tale has her cellmate ripping out pages an interesting add on.Sollecito remembers sending emails now doesn't that faze you. Fine, just look at Knox's own words that shift the truth. She claims she was told to hurry and write her statement. Another account she says they told her to take her time. Donnino's account of when Amanda named Lumumba makes sense. Three people were present they asked her why she didn't have to go to work. She says her boss sent her a text not to come in. She doesn't remember responding, fair enough, they show her the text and she freaks out . Donnino said that was the moment she covered her ears and said "its him". no hitting , no calling her a liar . There are enough lies coming from Amanda and shifting stories by her own hand.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

If there were multiple attackers where is any of their DNA?

Why does their need to be DNA in Filomena's room from a burglar that most likely was wearing gloves but not DNA from people involved in a vicious attack?

I know this one, they all had gloves and booties, but Rudi took his off after braking in the window, but he put them back on after leaving the left shoe prints to the front door, came back with his booties now on and locked that door. Now it's starting to make sense.