Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[JREF2010]

Heh. You know Mary H.'s favorite Italian police officer? The young male one from Rome who was impressed with Amanda's flexibility when she was doing yoga and wanted to see how wide she could spread her legs? Ivano is his name. He was not just holding hands he was caressing her too, Domino thought it was sweet! The humanity of the man! Pawing the poor distressed girl as she sat there crying, visibly shocked, frightened and dejected, comforting her, reassuring her--such a nice young man!

I thought he was caressing her because she had the magical power to put a spell on all males almost immediately, so this is why he was speaking to the young college aged girl... and the courtroom had some locals afraid of looking at her directly.

 

[Dan O.]

There were pictures of the ICSI scrubbing the floor at one point. Was it in the area that the "missing" Luminol prints would be?

There was a video of them scrubbing the floor eith their little swabs. Then there is the video from the December visit of the bunnies crowding into Meredith's room with flashlights and photographs trying to locate where one on the prints used to be. It was hilarious.

The photo I posted showing the "missing" shoeprint was from 17:44 November 2nd. The scrubbing didn't take place until much later on the 2nd/3rd. Luminol testing was late in the evening on the December 18th visit.

Perhaps you can't see the rings to the left of the pink bag. I found them quite easily by measuring Rudy's stride from the previous marked shoe print.

These prints tell a story of Rudy preparing to leave in Meredith's room, turning around and walking out to the kitchen where he faces the table then turns back and takes another step towards the door. But the story doesn't end there. The secondary splash at print 2 shows a return and prints G-J show the same stride again approaching the door.

 

[toto]

he knew he was going to be questioned by the police when he went to the station that night. Could he not have brought a lawyer with him? How is a trick question to confront him with his cell phone history and ask him a legit question about inconsistencies? He was real quick to break Knox's alibi, which is a big sign of guilt. if they were together that night at his home and he knew he wasn't involved a murder, why would he do this? there's only one answer and there is no doubt about it.



.

I would have thought that if Raffaele was involved in the murder he wouldn't want to deliberately frame Amanda. My understanding is he got his days mixed up. According to Candace Dempsey the officers "hammered Raffaele about Amanda" on a number of points, and at some point Raffaele called for a lawyer and to speak to his father, both of which were denied him. So I can see how he could have got confused and anxious.

 

[Grinder]

There was a video of them scrubbing the floor eith their little swabs. Then there is the video from the December visit of the bunnies crowding into Meredith's room with flashlights and photographs trying to locate where one on the prints used to be. It was hilarious.

The photo I posted showing the "missing" shoeprint was from 17:44 November 2nd. The scrubbing didn't take place until much later on the 2nd/3rd. Luminol testing was late in the evening on the December 18th visit.

Perhaps you can't see the rings to the left of the pink bag. I found them quite easily by measuring Rudy's stride from the previous marked shoe print.

These prints tell a story of Rudy preparing to leave in Meredith's room, turning around and walking out to the kitchen where he faces the table then turns back and takes another step towards the door. But the story doesn't end there. The secondary splash at print 2 shows a return and prints G-J show the same stride again approaching the door.

Thanks. I seem to remember a scene where the ICSI is using sponges on the floor. Maybe I have that confused with what you described.

Sherlock's point about Luminol prints did raise the point and now amplified by the prints in the kitchen. At some point there should be prints only visible under Luminol unless they disappeared outside.

Most likely another example of ILE lack of competence.

 

[Grinder]

I would have thought that if Raffaele was involved in the murder he wouldn't want to deliberately frame Amanda. My understanding is he got his days mixed up. According to Candace Dempsey the officers "hammered Raffaele about Amanda" on a number of points, and at some point Raffaele called for a lawyer and to speak to his father, both of which were denied him. So I can see how he could have got confused and anxious.

The questioning was all done under the cloak of being a person with information not a suspect. If a transcript exists, it would have been through the filter of the police stenographer. If he was asked if he went to sleep at some time that night and if so could he be sure Amanda didn't leave, he would have to answer no he wasn't sure. If he said while he was asleep he was sure she didn't leave, they would call him a liar.

Don't forget at this point they knew what had happened and were driving to get Amanda to tell them the details about Patrick. Otherwise the police chief lied at the press conference. He wouldn't do that, would he?

 

[Bill Williams]

this guy who goes by The Machine at true justice wrote this as well:

Re-examination of the bra clasp

According to the authors of “Darkness Descending” Dr. Stefanoni found highly suggestive evidence of Amanda Knox’s DNA on Meredith’s bra. Raffaele Sollecito’s forensic expert, Professor Torre, also claimed that he had found Knox’s DNA on Meredith’s bra strap.

It seems that another forensic expert Vincenzo Pascali ALSO found Knox’s DNA on Meredith’s bra. The reporter Barbie Nadeau wrote the following:


Vincenzo Pascali, the chief forensic consultant who was set to give expert testimony about the possible contamination of the bra clasp, walked off the case last month, reportedly leaving a €50,000 bill. Back in September, Pascali, who declined to comment for this story, hinted that the clasp also contained Knox’s DNA.

I guess these "hints" and these "hignly suggestive" tidbits didn't pan out because this never made it to trial.

Why are we returning to pre-trial phases of this when Mignini was still claiming, acc. to the Sunday Times and John Follain who is also a guilter author, that this was a Satanic ritual?

Should we have a thread titled, "Things to argue as if this were still 2008"?

 

[Bill Williams]

I would have thought that if Raffaele was involved in the murder he wouldn't want to deliberately frame Amanda. My understanding is he got his days mixed up. According to Candace Dempsey the officers "hammered Raffaele about Amanda" on a number of points, and at some point Raffaele called for a lawyer and to speak to his father, both of which were denied him. So I can see how he could have got confused and anxious.

Given that they told Raffaele to surrender his Nikes, then this also should have been an interrogation which was at least videotaped. Given the information they claimed they'd gotten out of Raff - that Knox went out - then Knox should have had a lawyer and had her interrogation videotaped.

And given what they said they got out of Knox - very definitely Lumumba's beating interrogation should have been videotaped.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

[IMGL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=7859[/IMGL]I'll know more when I've had a chance to add the corridor to my Sketchup model. There does appear to be a missing footprint about where the pink bag is. It's hard to tell without the closeup. The bag probably moved when Amanda put the mop away since the door needs to be closed in order to access the mop cabinet behind. Was there too much pink there for the crack ILE professionals to see the nearby blood?


Something else I think I pointed out much earlier, in shoe print 2 there is a blood drip that is on top of the shoe print (ie: was dripped after the print was made). What I had wrong then was that the wet pant leg is the other one so would have already been further forward when the shoe making the print was lifted. This drip must have been made on a return trip thus confirming that the prints were not made on Rudy's final exit. That diluted blood is still dripping helps establish that the prints were made soon after the cleanup in the bathroom.

Interesting. It looks like a splash of bloody water with a ring around the edge.

I would be cautious about inferring too much. One could explain it as a water droplet that trickled down the side of the shoe, and ran slightly under the sole because of surface tension, and was flattened with that step.

 

[Bill Williams]

There is a complete summary of Amanda's interpreter Donino testimony on PMF.org. She arrived during the questioning at 12:30. Her testimony is straight forward and without hesitation. No mistreatment of Amanda occurred. At one point someone even held her hand! Amanda's tales will be her undoing. Noted that she had added a story in her memoir of a cellmate ripping out diary pages in anger. I almost bought it as an excuse for her missing October pages until someone on .net pointed out it would be a different diary. Tales of sent emails, missing pages and blaming others for confessions won't help the defendants.

Funny what I got out of it was the strange idea she had that she should form a relationship with the person that she was doing the translating of and for. She did mention her family and her broken leg and the trauma she she related to Amanda. She claimed to have translated the whole session but there were no translations of the questions Amanda was asked.

She doesn't answer questions straightforwardly at times and clearly is a partisan not a neutral translator.

Donnino describes herself upon entering the room as acting as a mediator, not a translator. Translators specifically do not push themselves into the drama of the room. By Donnino's explanation alone, one has to wonder if Knox could have known what was going on around her. Knox claims she left the interrogation claiming, in essence, that she was being put in protective custody. If Donnino claims that Knox should have known that she'd just confessed to a murder and had just inadvertently fingered a third party, it would be the translator's job to, without bias one way or another, simply convey that meaning in English.

I find it strange that anyone in the attempt to defend the cops' conduct that night would refer to Anna Donnino...

 

[Bill Williams]

was Raffe having sex behind Knox's back with the victim, giving him the opportunity to touch her bra prior to the night of the murder? how would this guy even have the testosterone to make love to another woman given Knox's sex kitten ways?

One trick you guys use is you talk about 4 dna profiles on the bra clasp but you never mention one of those is Knox as confirmed by Raffie's DNA expert. the other one is probably the victim's boyfriend, who had an alibi that night and wasn't even in town. I wouldn't doubt if the 4th was Meredith's dna, or Rudy's, given he's the sexual aggressor in the murder.

I just can't see how anybody can believe raffe's dna on this bra unless he's guilty or this Stef babe planted it on there. why would she want to frame this Raffe? DId Raffe's rich doctor daddy reject her and this was payback?

In another post you say this is hinted at! But alas, this never made it to trial... why did not Mignini have you at the prosecution table?

I guess the real question is the one you pose. Why would Stefanoni want to frame Raffaele? Lessee, because if she did not then there'd be NO evidence at all linking Raff to the cottage! You need to walk youself through the testing of the bra-clasp and see that for the first couple of runs, there was no indication of Raff. Then when the dial was turned up Raff's peaks along with half of Italy's Italian male population turned up. Then she wrote a report saying it was Raff.

Why?

 

[Bill Williams]

it does not matter if there were a million male dna profiles on the bra clasp if Raffe cannot explain how his got there.

Yes it does matter. It shows that the testing cannot forensically distinguish between Raff's DNA and these other millions. Please read up on the case.

 

[Briars]

briars

Donnino describes herself upon entering the room as acting as a mediator, not a translator. Translators specifically do not push themselves into the drama of the room. By Donnino's explanation alone, one has to wonder if Knox could have known what was going on around her. Knox claims she left the interrogation claiming, in essence, that she was being put in protective custody. If Donnino claims that Knox should have known that she'd just confessed to a murder and had just inadvertently fingered a third party, it would be the translator's job to, without bias one way or another, simply convey that meaning in English.

I find it strange that anyone in the attempt to defend the cops' conduct that night would refer to Anna Donnino...

Anna Donino is as clear as one can be that Knox was treated well. Not even a tap with the brioche offered or a flick of someone's hair. She can be sarcastic because the allegations made by Amanda are not truthful. Do you believe someone held her hand Bill? I do . The evolving story that Amanda dishes out will be her downfall. Friends like you who encourage her to lie and shift her tale will contribute to her troubles.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I'm looking at the blood traces in the common area - F, G, H, I, J and Y.

F, H, I and Y look like more left shoe prints, growing fainter with every step. But the arrangement depicts something other than an uninterrupted progression toward the exit. He paused and moved around in that area for some reason.

G and J have a distinct appearance - similar to each other, but different from the shoe prints. I can only guess - maybe he had an overcoat bunched under his arm. There was some blood on the hem, and he brushed it against the floor when he held it by the collar before putting it on. It could be lots of things.

 

[Mary_H]

Heh. You know Mary H.'s favorite Italian police officer? The young male one from Rome who was impressed with Amanda's flexibility when she was doing yoga and wanted to see how wide she could spread her legs? Ivano is his name. He was not just holding hands he was caressing her too, Domino thought it was sweet! The humanity of the man! Pawing the poor distressed girl as she sat there crying, visibly shocked, frightened and dejected, comforting her, reassuring her--such a nice young man!

You flatter me, Kaosium. I am not familiar with the inside story on Ivano. Perhaps you are mixing me up with one of the other ladies here who bought the "Pigs of Perugia 2007" calendar.

No, my favorite official is definitely Amanda's own personal male guard in Capanne, who after her "positive" HIV test told her generously that he would have sex with her anyway. Now that's what I call humanity!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

No evidence of more than one attacker; disposable tweezers

The lack of defensive wounds, the number of injuries inflicted , the nonsensical moving of the victim. The post attack removal of clothing all these things convinced both courts that there was more than one assailant. There was DNA found on a key piece of clothing which remains "a big problem."

Both courts? If you mean Rudy's trials plus Massei, that is hardly a complete survey. Does someone have to quote yet again the summary of testimony with the Massei report about the number of attackers? The forensic experts quoted there obviously knew about Meredith's wounds. If Meredith were hit in the face, she might have been stunned. Torre thought that the attack was fast. As for clothing, it is in the forensic literature that clothing sometimes contains DNA from people who are not part of the wearer's immediate family, as I have cited here twice in the past few weeks. The problems with the clasp as inculpatory evidence don't end there. The number of donors to the DNA on the clasp is problematic. Its late collection opens up avenues of innocent DNA transfer, such as from Meredith's door, to gloves, to the clasp. The manner of its being collected is enough to exclude it IMO. Have the FP never heard of disposable tweezers?
EDT
There was no evidence of Meredith's body being moved long after her death. I think we have been through this point many times already.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Anna Donino is as clear as one can be that Knox was treated well. Not even a tap with the brioche offered or a flick of someone's hair. She can be sarcastic because the allegations made by Amanda are not truthful. Do you believe someone held her hand Bill? I do . The evolving story that Amanda dishes out will be her downfall. Friends like you who encourage her to lie and shift her tale will contribute to her troubles.

You can believe in the tooth fairy if it makes you feel better.

 

[Grinder]

Donnino describes herself upon entering the room as acting as a mediator, not a translator. Translators specifically do not push themselves into the drama of the room. By Donnino's explanation alone, one has to wonder if Knox could have known what was going on around her. Knox claims she left the interrogation claiming, in essence, that she was being put in protective custody. If Donnino claims that Knox should have known that she'd just confessed to a murder and had just inadvertently fingered a third party, it would be the translator's job to, without bias one way or another, simply convey that meaning in English.

I find it strange that anyone in the attempt to defend the cops' conduct that night would refer to Anna Donnino...

Always take an opportunity to completely agree.
This is clearly an example of "bad cop, good translator".

From the Book of Grinder AD - "I'm your friend and will help you remember. My leg was broken and it took some effort to remember what happened. These hard working cops have information that doesn't match with what you are saying, so maybe if you try really hard you will remember those things that they know to be true. And when you do they will give you cake and put you somewhere safe. "

 

[Chris_Halkides]

a systemic problem

Anna Donino is as clear as one can be that Knox was treated well.

Amnesty International's report on Italy in 2007 stated in part, "There was no independent police complaints and accountability body. Policing operations were not in line with the European Code of Police Ethics, for example in the requirement for officers to display prominently some form of identification, such as a service number, to ensure they could be held accountable.
An investigation continued into a December 2005 operation in Val di Susa when several hundred law enforcement officers attempted to remove around 100 people demonstrating against a high-speed rail link. Demonstrators were reportedly assaulted and beaten, many while sleeping."

One might ask, "Why would the cops behave unethically toward Amanda, Raffaele, and Patrick?" I would ask in response, "Given the lack of checks and balances, why wouldn't they?" When there are few repercussions for bad behavior, expect bad behavior.

 

[Grinder]

In another post you say this is hinted at! But alas, this never made it to trial... why did not Mignini have you at the prosecution table?

I guess the real question is the one you pose. Why would Stefanoni want to frame Raffaele? Lessee, because if she did not then there'd be NO evidence at all linking Raff to the cottage! You need to walk youself through the testing of the bra-clasp and see that for the first couple of runs, there was no indication of Raff. Then when the dial was turned up Raff's peaks along with half of Italy's Italian male population turned up. Then she wrote a report saying it was Raff.

Why?

How did the clasp disappear after being found under her? I can't believe that any other court would allow it in. Although, I heavily lean to incompetence in most cases involving this investigation this is one where a little help from a detective might have happened. This are the same cops that are in trouble for messing with Nappy's ex.

 

[Grinder]

Both courts? If you mean Rudy's trials plus Massei, that is hardly a complete survey. Does someone have to quote yet again the summary of testimony with the Massei report about the number of attackers? The forensic experts quoted there obviously knew about Meredith's wounds. If Meredith were hit in the face, she might have been stunned. Torre thought that the attack was fast. As for clothing, it is in the forensic literature that clothing sometimes contains DNA from people who are not part of the wearer's immediate family, as I have cited here twice in the past few weeks. The problems with the clasp as inculpatory evidence don't end there. The number of donors to the DNA on the clasp is problematic. Its late collection opens up avenues of innocent DNA transfer, such as from Meredith's door, to gloves, to the clasp. The manner of its being collected is enough to exclude it IMO. Have the FP never heard of disposable tweezers?

If there were multiple attackers where is any of their DNA?

Why does their need to be DNA in Filomena's room from a burglar that most likely was wearing gloves but not DNA from people involved in a vicious attack?

OT. Chris do you remember the case in Germany of the serial killer that turned out be the DNA of factory worker at the glove manufacturer?