Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Charlie Wilkes]

here is a summary of the Micheli report, from true justice. He's the judge who presided over the Rudy trial, and the sentencing trial that sent the Knox case to full trial:

He said that Meredith’s bra was found by investigators away from other possible blood contamination on the floor, near to her feet. Photographs of Meredith’s body show clear white areas where the bra prevented blood from falling onto Merediths body. These white areas corresponded to those areas where blood was found on her bra. This was particularly true in the area of the right shoulder strap which was soaked from the wound to Meredith’s neck.

Micheli said that evidence showed that Meredith had lain on one shoulder near the wardrobe. She lay in that position long enough for the imprint of her shoulder and bra strap to remain fixed in the pool of blood after she was moved to the position in which her body was finally found. Photographs of blood on her shoulder matched the imprint by the wardrobe and her shoulder itself also showed signs that she had remained in that position for some time.

Based on all this, Judge Micheli concluded that there could be no doubt that Meredith’s body was moved away from the wardrobe and her bra removed quite some time after her death.

Micheli is factually wrong. The photos show the aspirated blood droplets on Meredith's exposed breasts, in the area that would have been covered by the bra.

The bra was ripped from her body when she was still gasping for breath and exhaling droplets of aspirated blood.

The imprint on her back lines up with the seam of a floor tile, not the bra strap.

I won't post these photos, but I have them, and that is what they show. All of this was thoroughly examined during the trial, which is why Massei's report contains none of these phony observations.

Attached is a photo taken after Meredith's body was removed from the crime scene, showing the spot where her head was resting when her body was found. Her face was turned toward the wardrobe closet, and the boots were positioned as they are in this photo, between her head and the closet. Note the aspirated blood droplets on the side panel, on the boot, and on the straps of the boot. She was lying in this spot when she stopped breathing, within a very few minutes after her throat was cut.

 

[Grinder]

Oh, while we're talking about the untested 'semen stain', what about the untested formation hairs under her fingernails? From Amanda's appeal

I understand formation hairs to be root hairs.

How does this type of testing work elsewhere? Can the defense do their own testing? How is chain of custody handled.

 

[DrTesla]

Micheli is factually wrong. The photos show the aspirated blood droplets on Meredith's exposed breasts, in the area that would have been covered by the bra.

The bra was ripped from her body when she was still gasping for breath and exhaling droplets of aspirated blood.

The imprint on her back lines up with the seam of a floor tile, not the bra strap.

I won't post these photos, but I have them, and that is what they show. All of this was thoroughly examined during the trial, which is why Massei's report contains none of these phony observations.

Attached is a photo taken after Meredith's body was removed from the crime scene, showing the spot where her head was resting when her body was found. Her face was turned toward the wardrobe closet, and the boots were positioned as they are in this photo, between her head and the closet. Note the aspirated blood droplets on the side panel, on the boot, and on the straps of the boot. She was lying in this spot when she stopped breathing, within a very few minutes after her throat was cut.

almost sounds like you were an eye witness to the murder. maybe you are one of the 20 people they found on Meridith's bra clasp (I can't help think Knox fans are trying to imply the victim was getting around with this)

 

[Grinder]

Good point. Suppose that this belonged to Rudy, or suppose that the putative semen stain were tested and also belonged to Rudy. This would further undermine his credibility with respect to his claim that he had consensual intimacy with Meredith that stopped short of intercourse. The fact that neither test was done points out in additional ways how incomplete the forensics were in this case.

Good points. It would also muck up their whole case if say Kokomania's DNA were found or anyone not already in the cross-hairs that she wasn't known to have had sex with.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Lady Windermere's Tea

Halides - are you sure you're not English? 'Incomplete' is one heck of an understatement!

LIS, I may want to visit Perugia someday. I think that it might be worthwhile to state that there are at minimum two items of evidence that could have changed my mind about this case if they had been tested competently. One is the putative semen stain and the other is the interior of the kitchen knife. If the stain belonged to Raffaele or if there were Meredith's blood inside the knife, I would change my vote from innocent to guilty. Even a tape of the interrogations showing Amanda and what's-his-name being served tea and scones would be enough to cause me to rethink.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Everything points to Knox's innocence, according to the Friends. Ever notice that? No matter how weird. No matter if she lied. There's always an excuse...her pot use, her shock over the murder, the fact she did not speak Italian well, the police were mean to her, etc.

Everything points to Knox's innocence - her changing and unsupported alibi, the fact she took drugs and can't remember whatever she did that night, the fact she accused an innocent man once her boyfriend changed their alibi, her actions after the murder was discovered, the cartwheel, it goes on and on yet it seems there is actually nothing that points to innocence except in the mind of a FOAKER.

Why would she tell people at the station that she found the body if she didn't find the body? That, in my mind, is more disturbing then her talking about the body being found in the closet despite not being able to see into the room. But how would saying the body was found in the closet prove innocence, if the body was not found in the closet and nobody would have said that if they saw into the room?

Back up just a little, look at what she said in her e-mail to friends, how frantic she was looking for Meredith, screaming her name while banging on her door and all, yet minutes later once the police and Filomena go to kick down the door, the same one Raff just tried too but was not strong enough to (so much for this kick boxing classes, his dad should ask for a refund), where is she and her boyfriend? Ya, real concern there.

She's telling people she FOUND the body in the closet. The English girl said Knox was BRAGGING about this, which is NUTTY. If she found the body, why would she say it was in the closet? BUt she didn't even find the body. This is so nutty. I don't know anybody with common sense can view this woman as innocent. She's clearly has some issues if she's lying about finding a body that she didn't find, and it wasn't located where she said it was.

You have to give Amanda a break here, she had been up all night with no sleep, and emotionally she really went through a lot the night before, and to top it all off, when was the last time she ate or went to the washroom?

The police would have deserved jail time for gross incompetence if they had NOT considered this batty babe a suspect.

Excellent rebuttal, I'd nominate you but I don't know how..........

 

[DrTesla]

LIS, I may want to visit Perugia someday. I think that it might be worthwhile to state that there are at minimum two items of evidence that could have changed my mind about this case if they had been tested competently. One is the putative semen stain and the other is the interior of the kitchen knife. If the stain belonged to Raffaele or if there were Meredith's blood inside the knife, I would change my vote from innocent to guilty. Even a tape of the interrogations showing Amanda and what's-his-name being served tea and scones would be enough to cause me to rethink.

you absolutely would never concede Knox is guilty. that's not your agenda here, along with your fellow Friends. I think if you guys were sincere, you'd just admit you don't care if she committed the murder. there is easily as much evidence against these two as Arias.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I'd like to Lodge a question

Charlie, by any chance you aren't a Mason, are you? (J/K) Seriously, I recall that lividity was suggested as evidence that the body was moved a long time ago, but some portions of the Massei report squelched that idea. I think I found the appropriate passage using the search term "livor" or possibly "livor mortis"

 

[Grinder]

Dr. Vinci, a defense consultant, found the stain with a police light, such as a Polilight. If the FP did not also use one, then they are incompetent. If they did, then they should have tested the stain. There were two excuses offered for why the stain was not tested further IIUC. One was that they wanted to preserve the tread marks, and the other was that semen cannot be dated. Neither argument makes much sense IMO. What the defense did or did not say about testing this stain is not the point. However, testing the stain very late into the investigation naturally raises concerns about the possibility of bias. That is why the testing should be done early in the investigation.

Once again spot on. The question shouldn't be why didn't the defense test it themselves, if they even could, or why did they wait to ask; the question should be why didn't the genius Stefanoni do it on her own. What else did they completely miss?

If this had been a murder by gun would the ICSI say that bullets in the wall need not be tested because they could have there from another time

 

[DrTesla]

Charlie, by any chance you aren't a Mason, are you? Seriously, I recall that lividity was suggested as evidence that the body was moved a long time ago, but some portions of the Massei report squelched that idea. I think I found the appropriate passage using the search term "livor" or possibly "livor mortis"

it's funny how you guys always site Massei like it backs you up, but Massei court found Knox and the boyfriend guilty by a 8-0 margin. It comes across as a smarmy tactic, to purposely use a document that does not support your claims to support your claims. Massie doesn't' agree with you, if he did, he would have voted Knox innocent.

 

[DrTesla]

I'm hoping the next appeals trial judge appoints Dr. Stefanoni as the independent DNA expert, so they can finally put this case to bed.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Quite. Nor is there a shred of evidence of any kind that she was murdered in the closet or brought from the closet to where she was found. It's amazing the amount of stuff people just make up. They can always be relied upon not to support it with anything resembling a cite.

You are right, there is no evidence, but there is a witness if you can believe what she said, I know there are a few that believe every word she says, just saying.

 

[DrTesla]

ok, i'm gonna try to get some sleep again, last attempt didn't work out.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Oh, while we're talking about the untested 'semen stain', what about the untested formation hairs under her fingernails? From Amanda's appeal

I understand formation hairs to be root hairs.

The Italians use a phrase that translates literally as "hair formation." I think an accurate translation of the meaning would be "hair specimen."

 

[Grinder]

My opinion would be different if the footprints had tested positive for blood and some of Amanda's DNA was found in the murder room associated with the crime.

If the knife had been collected, transported and tested using internationally accepted protocol and it tested positive to for human blood and had a clean read of Meredith's DNA I'd think either Raf or Amanda or both were involved.

Had the bra clasp not mysteriously disappeared for 47 days and then showed Meredith's and Raf's DNA only. Aside - how did Rudi's show up on the other part of the bra but not the clasp and who were all the other people on it?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Yes I thought of that after I posted. Clearly evidence in Meredith's blood is dated but footprints that tested negative for blood would not be. The DNA on the bra clasp could have come at some time before the murder night. Raffaele could have fooled around with it while it was on the drying rack - rookie that he was maybe he practiced with it.

Funny you should say that, years ago, when I was looking for a way they could be innocent, I told my wife the bra clasp was a problem, contamination was highly unlikely, he had been over there just once, if it was contaminated, way more likely you would find traces of someone who actually lived there. Anyway, I mentioned the cloths rack, Meredith had a shower that morning, if the bra was on the towel rack, he could have grabbed it and just spun it around in the air, he's 23, I could have that when I was his age, the only thing about that though, is why didn't Amanda or Raff say this. I have no idea how his dna got on that clasp, something creepy I presume, no way do I buy contamination.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

almost sounds like you were an eye witness to the murder. maybe you are one of the 20 people they found on Meridith's bra clasp (I can't help think Knox fans are trying to imply the victim was getting around with this)

I have spent countless hours poring over several hundred crime scene photos and many hours of crime scene video, and I have discussed this material with a number of experts. I understand what really happened.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

LIS, I may want to visit Perugia someday. I think that it might be worthwhile to state that there are at minimum two items of evidence that could have changed my mind about this case if they had been tested competently. One is the putative semen stain and the other is the interior of the kitchen knife. If the stain belonged to Raffaele or if there were Meredith's blood inside the knife, I would change my vote from innocent to guilty. Even a tape of the interrogations showing Amanda and what's-his-name being served tea and scones would be enough to cause me to rethink.

I too would like to visit Perugia one day, I'm retiring this year and I've talked this over already with my wife. I would prefer to be there on Nov 1st, perhaps for a couple of days, and yes, I would leave a rose on the gate like that other guy did.

 

[anglolawyer]

Quite. Nor is there a shred of evidence of any kind that she was murdered in the closet or brought from the closet to where she was found. It's amazing the amount of stuff people just make up. They can always be relied upon not to support it with anything resembling a cite.

You are right, there is no evidence, but there is a witness if you can believe what she said, I know there are a few that believe every word she says, just saying.

'Just saying' what? How does her incorrect understanding that the body was found in the closet prove she is guilty of murder? Please provide something resembling a meaningful explanation. See, on the one hand there is a crime scene utterly devoid of evidence of presence at the material time, plus a completely incredible narrative. And on the other are a handful of these non-points that people try to make something out of but without doing the job properly.

Can you attempt to explain the thought process the 'lie' about the closet is supposed to reveal? I mean, it's an error, right? It reveals no inside knowledge that only a guilty person would know. On the contrary, it suggests she had no clue what the crime scene looked like.

I don't believe every word she says. I believe the evidence, only part of which is what she says. Not all of what she says is correct but, as I posted before, that is sometimes the result of her succumbing to the unreasonable expectations of those who expect her to have perfect total recall. Please give me a detailed account of what you did last Saturday, including timings, conversations, emails, telephone calls, what you ate etc. I will ask you to repeat the exercise in two years' time (referencing the same Saturday) and if you get any of the details wrong, or just out of order, you go to jail for four years.

ETA you can prove to me she is the worst liar who ever walked the planet and I still would not believe she was guilty. Her so-called lies are irrelevant. There is no evidence that stands up to scrutiny.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I have spent countless hours poring over several hundred crime scene photos and many hours of crime scene video, and I have discussed this material with a number of experts. I understand what really happened.

Where and how do you get these photo's and such, how are you related to this crime?