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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Do friends of Amanda ever consider that their attacks on the prosecuter, on the police, on the DNA experts like Dr. Stef, on the various reporterss like Vogt and Nadaeu, might be seen as over the top and just not believable and actually be hurting the case for her innocence?
Nope. We've seen the videos of the police screwing up the DNA collection and we understand the difference between real evidence and the kind of contrived nonsense gathered against the defendants in this case.

And I'm not a "friend of Amanda" btw. I'm convinced of her (and Raff's) innocence because there's not a single aspect of the accusations against them that would ever pass muster when compared to honest police work. Real investigations don't rely on all-night interrogations, "evidence" produced by conjuring tricks, and "witnesses" tailoring their accounts to sensational news media stories.
you are really alleging that there is some kind of criminal conspiracy b/t prosecuters, the police, dna experts, reporters, and others to find Knox guilty of murder at all costs.
Are you suggesting that cover-ups by powerful people don't happen?
you'd almost think all these people don't get paid unless Knox is found guilty
You're nearer the truth than you could ever imagine - although including "DNA experts" in your list is a stretch. Police careers depend on results, and that means getting convictions in the courts, not acquittals. Added to that, they're not easily going to admit that they arrested 3 innocent people on 6th November 2007.

Of course your so-called "DNA experts" are working for the Perugia police and prosecution, and have the same incentives to "find" evidence that suits their agenda. As for news reporters, they write what sells papers, and what sells isn't necessarily the truth.
b/c it sure seems unreal to me that they would be this passionate about some college bimbo being found guilty that they basically break the law or lie or whatever to make sure it happens.
It may seem "unreal" to you, but those of us who have looked at the events of the case without the filter of "the police can do no wrong" have seen it all too clearly. It's no good averting your gaze from obvious misconduct, just by telling yourself "the police wouldn't do that".
Mignini prosecutes a lot of other cases too and this is just one case out of many for him. he's nto going to lose his job if she's found innocent. that's not how it works.

He builds his career on getting the Italian courts to dance to his tune. An acquittal in this case will be a personal career-damaging defeat for him. Ideally it will open him up to further charges of abuse of office - don't forget he only side-stepped a conviction for exactly that by getting a ruling on a technicality.
 
I agree, you don't have to be a lawyer to get this and I think I do get it, so correct me if I'm wrong----super cliff notes--->...Mignini never introduced it as evidence at trial and that means he knew it wasn't a valid piece of evidence that could withstand scrutiny so he snuck it into the video to influence the jury subtly without exposing that evidence to cross examination. Therefore, it must have been brought in by LE b4 the photo was taken.
Correctamundo! Please hold on to this idea!

I just don't think anyone has any way to prove how or why that lamp was in that room and as such, I don't think either side can benefit or be hurt by it, so in my mind its worthless and I don't understand why both sides give such weight to it.
Because it's important. If the PGPs are right it proves something involving a lamp happened in the room in connection with the murder (unless Meredith borrowed it, which I dispute). If I'm right it means Mignini is a bent lawyer.

I also think if one of the postal police or early carabinieri was waving around this lamp within the 15 minute window you mentioned, I cant help but believe one or more of the people there would have noticed and could confirm this.
No. Everyone was ushered out leaving the posties alone inside. But Battisteli was seen by Altieri lifting the quilt (before the ushering) and lied about it. Alarm bells.

Aren't we all speculating here?
We are.

I'll join in, Meredith came home, knew she was by herself for the evening & got a little scared and nervous and like a child gets comfort from a nite-light, she felt more at ease having her room with more light so she grabbed Amanda's lamp for the evening. True? False? possible? Who knows?
And she put the lamp ... at the foot of the bed behind the door.

I wish I had the actual transcripts, spoke Italian and had complete access to all the evidence so I could tell you whether these people were asked about it at trial, but like so many things in this case, I feel like I'm left to grope around in the dark. It would be real nice to have testimony from one of the people you mentioned explaining how they grabbed the lamp, but I haven't seen anything.
I have the same wish but I've read all the books including the Book of Grinder and not a one has a single reference to positive evidence about the lamp. Everyone just assumes it was in there. It's a mass blind spot. Massei also passes over it, merely recording that Amanda was asked about it and said she didn't notice her lamp was missing.

I'm sure I'm wrong on or misunderstood something, it wouldn't be the first time, so fire away amigo
You aren't more wrong than everyone else. Thanks for listening. :)
 
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I rarely have seen a reporter that gets aggravated. Barbie looks and acts spaced out when she is on TV. She has little background in journalism and you can look it up. As I said earlier she seems brain dead in those interviews.

I gave you the link to the interview done with SBS Australia Dateline and you should read her answers and pay attention to what the Italian journalist and Pisa are saying.

Vogt and Barbie are in awe of the authorities. Both of them have had direct communication with the PMF moderator and share with PG being ex-pats in Europe.

Her comments that she and her family members don't bleed together, besides falsely implying that mixed blood was found, is ridiculous. If her husband was murdered and his blood was all over the place including the bathroom they shared, it just might be the case that the CSI would find her blood (gums, cut or ?) mixed with some of his. I recently cut a finger while cutting a lilac for Mother's Day and blood was widely to be found in the bathroom and if my SO were bleeding from a severe injury it could easily be the case the bloods would mix.

Do a search for her before Nov. 2, 2007 and see what you find.


Good, I'm glad you don't like her, only strengthens my belief in her, I've seen her reporting and she is very fair, because she doesn't follow the Knox PR campaign and isn't a Knox fan boy is a very large point in her favor. Barbie is one of the best covering this story, like it or not.
 
Are you familiar with the Norfolk Four case, or the Stefan Kiszko/Lesley Molseed case? In both cases a runaway prosecution, in one case with the aid of compliant witnesses who came forward with false statements to get in on the witch hunt, got a successful conviction against completely innocent defendants.

These things do happen from time to time....


This is very much worth repeating, in particular the Stefan Kiszko case. The Wikipedia article on the case is very good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed

Kiszko was definitely innocent. There is absolutely no question at all about this. He was certainly badly served by his defence, but this case also features a false confession, witnesses perjuring themselves to support the prosecution case, a policeman and a forensic scientist fiddling the evidence to secure the conviction, and prosecutors determined to "get" their suspect.

Kiszko was destroyed by the 16 years he spent in jail. Like Sally Clark, who served eight years for two murders that didn't even happen (another tale of prosecutors and "experts" working together to concoct a fictitious case), he only survived months after his release.

Amazingly, thirty years after she was murdered, Lesley Moleseed's killer was identified using DNA technology not available at the time of the original investigation. And before anybody starts, not low copy and not a guessing game of stutter and random allele matching either.

These cases were in England, which isn't even on the radar for corruption and malpractice compared to Italy. But they have the whole set - tunnel-visioned invetigators, experts who think it's their job to manufacture a case against the chosen suspects, false confession, and prosecutors intent on a conviction and to hell with whether their victim was actually guilty or not.

So don't come up with this line, oh these people wouldn't have gone after Knox and Sollecito unless the evidence was watertight. Experience demonstrates that this happens, maybe not all the time, but repeatedly and not rarely.

Rolfe.
 
Are you familiar with the Norfolk Four case, or the Stefan Kiszko/Lesley Molseed case? In both cases a runaway prosecution, in one case with the aid of compliant witnesses who came forward with false statements to get in on the witch hunt, got a successful conviction against completely innocent defendants.

These things do happen from time to time. They're unusual, which is why we discuss them, but they happen.

As opposed to three-way murder pacts between strangers with no common language, involving two students with no history of violent crime, who can be in two places at once. Those haven't happened, ever..


I've no doubt that they happen from time to time and there is even a small chance that it has happened here as well, but I have to go with the odds, and they are vastly against Amanda and Raff. There never was a 'pact', and Rudy had no real history of violent crime either, but we agree what he was capable of I'm sure.

Could you nominate one or two of that slew of references as the most important ones to you, and we'll discuss those? The best of those have perfectly rational explanations, and the worst ("mixed blood"? really?) are just plain wrong.


They are all important, and when taken all together, insurmountable. Rudy locking the door kind of bugs me a bit more, saying it can be done is not a valid answer. Rudy just committed a murder, he's likely in a dark hallway with a set of keys he's never seen before, locking a door without turning around to face the lock or even swivel a bit towards the door and lock, sorry, but no way he locked that door, someone else did.
 
They are all important, and when taken all together, insurmountable. Rudy locking the door kind of bugs me a bit more, saying it can be done is not a valid answer. Rudy just committed a murder, he's likely in a dark hallway with a set of keys he's never seen before, locking a door without turning around to face the lock or even swivel a bit towards the door and lock, sorry, but no way he locked that door, someone else did.

If that is where the rubber hits the road for you, then who's to argue. Your opinion is your opinion.

Please accept, though, that this in and of itself does not point to who might have locked the door. That requires something different. A unique pointer to someone who then DID lock the door.

At the very least you are faithful to those things in Massei's report that tend to rule out Knox and Sollecito.... your scenario explains why neither of the two students can be tied forensically to the murder itself. Perhaps a cover-up but not the horrible deed itself.
 
If that is where the rubber hits the road for you, then who's to argue. Your opinion is your opinion.

Please accept, though, that this in and of itself does not point to who might have locked the door. That requires something different. A unique pointer to someone who then DID lock the door.

At the very least you are faithful to those things in Massei's report that tend to rule out Knox and Sollecito.... your scenario explains why neither of the two students can be tied forensically to the murder itself. Perhaps a cover-up but not the horrible deed itself.

Sherlock also efficiently summarizes the essential fault of the Massei report in one phrase: "saying it can be done is not a valid answer"
 
Good, I'm glad you don't like her, only strengthens my belief in her, I've seen her reporting and she is very fair, because she doesn't follow the Knox PR campaign and isn't a Knox fan boy is a very large point in her favor. Barbie is one of the best covering this story, like it or not.

I'm glad I so influential, but I didn't say I didn't like her. I gave specifics about bad reporting. I don't follow the alleged PR machine and I am certainly not PIP.

I am not a fan of Amanda and don't think she is exceptional in any way except perhaps language abilities and seems to play multiple instruments.

Barbie is not one of the best covering this case like it or not. She was there a lot so she had quantity but she she lacks quality. Restaurant reviews and travel stories are a better fit for her.
 
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They are all important, and when taken all together, insurmountable. Rudy locking the door kind of bugs me a bit more, saying it can be done is not a valid answer. Rudy just committed a murder, he's likely in a dark hallway with a set of keys he's never seen before, locking a door without turning around to face the lock or even swivel a bit towards the door and lock, sorry, but no way he locked that door, someone else did.

Rudi walked out in an agitated state, perhaps all the way outside or perhaps only to the door and found it locked. He at some point returned to Meredith's room to get the keys, the money and while at it took the phones. Well before completing these actions the blood no longer left detectable prints on the floor.

At this time he locked the door in a normal fashion facing the door.

Elementary Watson.

ETA - And the lamp means nothing unless there were bloody prints found on it. Anybody could have removed it from Amanda including Meredith. Rudi could have. The police could have.

If Laura's room was next to Meredith would anybody suspect her because her lamp was used? If a hall lamp had existed and was moved into Meredith's room would it mean anything? No clear reasoning would lead one to say that the lamp being in the room meant anything unless there were bloody prints or perhaps if Amanda's room was at the other end of the house. If there was evidence that Amanda's door was locked when she was out that would be incriminating but that was not the case.
 
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Here's an updated image of the foot prints.

[QIMG]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=7840[/QIMG]

I can also do an orthogonal top view if anyone wants to blow it up to full scale and try to walk the walk.

BTW: Prints 5C and 5B are multiple steps so Rudy would have been called for traveling.
 
Sherlock also efficiently summarizes the essential fault of the Massei report in one phrase: "saying it can be done is not a valid answer"

True. I'm beginning to think that the standard of proof in Italy is that "it could have been done", rather than, "it was done this way beyond a reasonable doubt." But then that's just me.
 
Do a search for her before Nov. 2, 2007 and see what you find.


I did this long ago. Immediately prior to heading to Perugia she did a tour of the Maserati factory. The president was flattered by her article and invited her back to test drive their most popular model. This is probably not the first time Barbie has gotten a bonus for writing favorably for authority.
 
I've no doubt that they happen from time to time and there is even a small chance that it has happened here as well, but I have to go with the odds, and they are vastly against Amanda and Raff. There never was a 'pact', and Rudy had no real history of violent crime either, but we agree what he was capable of I'm sure.

We've already discussed the huge holes in your preferred Mad Libs about the case. You've still got no explanation for how Amanda and Raffaele managed to be murdering Meredith while leaving computer evidence of being home all night, nor any explanation about how events could have unfolded such that neither of Amanda or Raffaele would have left the scene, called for help, called the police or given evidence against Rudy or each other.

Try to work through the actual chain of events that leads up to Amanda and Raffaele standing outside the bedroom saying "Well Amanda, looks like Rudy has stabbed your friend and housemate fatally, and he's ripping her bra off and sexually molesting her right in front of us while she dies. Time for a cover-up! You get the lamp, I'll go stage a break-in while Rudy showers". I just can't see any sane way of making it happen.

They are all important, and when taken all together, insurmountable. Rudy locking the door kind of bugs me a bit more, saying it can be done is not a valid answer. Rudy just committed a murder, he's likely in a dark hallway with a set of keys he's never seen before, locking a door without turning around to face the lock or even swivel a bit towards the door and lock, sorry, but no way he locked that door, someone else did.

That's the big proof of guilt? Someone locks a door in a way you find unexpected and that means two people with no motive and a strong alibi must have been there? Grinder has already explained a perfectly unremarkable way this can be explained: Rudy stabs and molests Meredith, goes to shower, and then comes back to go through her stuff and locks the door on his way out for the second time.

As for the rest of your Gish Gallop ("the break in, Toto, Meredith's locked door, the bathmat, mixed traces of blood, false confessions, cartwheels or splits, lies and strange behaviour") they're all explained easily enough without invoking anything ridiculously implausible.

Toto was a drug dealer with the threat of prison hanging over him, and a history of conveniently coming forward with vital eyewitness testimony when the police were having trouble closing a murder case. He could very easily have been pressured by desperate police to come up with a story to break Amanda and Raffaele's alibi.

The bathmat has Rudy's footprint on it. As we've already demonstrated, among people not primed to see the footprint either way some people see it as Rudy's, some people see it as Raffaele's, but more see it as Raffaele's. There is literally, absolutely nothing here that needs explaining.

There were no mixed traces of blood, ever. Read the Massei report. There were just places where blood from one person fell on or near a spot that had DNA from another person. In addition Amanda had no injuries that would have bled anyway, so this whole talking point is nonsense on stilts.

The false confession bears many hallmarks of an internalised false statement and was produced using discredited interrogation methods known to produce exactly that kind of internalised false statement. Once again there is nothing to explain.

As for "cartwheels or splits" and unspecified "lies and strange behaviour", we can't tell what you are trying to imply unless you are specific and cite your sources. However the bottom line is that people misremember or act weirdly sometimes, and that this is far, far less improbable than someone being in two places at once or committing a once-in-history impromptu group crime like the one in the Massei/Christiani fantasy.

Add it all up and you haven't even got a mild implausibility, let alone a huge ridiculous hole like the ones in your pet theory.
 
I'm thinking there were only two people in the house and one of them couldn't have possibly locked the door because she not only didn't have a key, but was dead, and the evidence clearly shows she was murdered by Guede. So, we don't have to understand how he locked the door because he is the only one who could have done it. No need to over think this.
 
Rudi walked out in an agitated state, perhaps all the way outside or perhaps only to the door and found it locked. He at some point returned to Meredith's room to get the keys, the money and while at it took the phones. Well before completing these actions the blood no longer left detectable prints on the floor.

At this time he locked the door in a normal fashion facing the door.

Elementary Watson.

ETA - And the lamp means nothing unless there were bloody prints found on it. Anybody could have removed it from Amanda including Meredith. Rudi could have. The police could have.

If Laura's room was next to Meredith would anybody suspect her because her lamp was used? If a hall lamp had existed and was moved into Meredith's room would it mean anything? No clear reasoning would lead one to say that the lamp being in the room meant anything unless there were bloody prints or perhaps if Amanda's room was at the other end of the house. If there was evidence that Amanda's door was locked when she was out that would be incriminating but that was not the case.


Do you not think had he returned to the door, his prints would have been reviewed when they luninal'd the floor, the original prints were visible to the naked eye, had he returned, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Lamp probably means something, but we will never know, so it means nothing, agreed.
Laura has what's called an alibi, Amanda does not, 'I don't remember' is not a solid alibi, "I was in Rome and 500 people can vouch for this' is.
 
If that is where the rubber hits the road for you, then who's to argue. Your opinion is your opinion.

Please accept, though, that this in and of itself does not point to who might have locked the door. That requires something different. A unique pointer to someone who then DID lock the door.

At the very least you are faithful to those things in Massei's report that tend to rule out Knox and Sollecito.... your scenario explains why neither of the two students can be tied forensically to the murder itself. Perhaps a cover-up but not the horrible deed itself.


Indeed, your last line sums up my belief exactly. A problem I have, they are on trial for murder, they did not murder, nor were they involved or responsible for this murder, they should be found not guilty. However, they are lying about what involvement they are responsible for, should that be taken into any account, is there something they should have to pay for this involvement? I believe this is the reason they are and likely will still be found guilty, there is too much evidence pointing that their story is not true, and if it's not true, then the jury is going to convict them, it is too late in the game to change their account of what happened, if they change it again, it won't mastery, they will still be found guilty, so no they are stuck between that rock and a hard place, nowhere to go, except possibly back to jail.
 
Rudi walked out in an agitated state, perhaps all the way outside or perhaps only to the door and found it locked. He at some point returned to Meredith's room to get the keys, the money and while at it took the phones. Well before completing these actions the blood no longer left detectable prints on the floor.

At this time he locked the door in a normal fashion facing the door.

Elementary Watson.

ETA - And the lamp means nothing unless there were bloody prints found on it. Anybody could have removed it from Amanda including Meredith. Rudi could have. The police could have.

If Laura's room was next to Meredith would anybody suspect her because her lamp was used? If a hall lamp had existed and was moved into Meredith's room would it mean anything? No clear reasoning would lead one to say that the lamp being in the room meant anything unless there were bloody prints or perhaps if Amanda's room was at the other end of the house. If there was evidence that Amanda's door was locked when she was out that would be incriminating but that was not the case.
If it could be shown it was in Amanda's room on the afternoon of 01 Nov and that it was behind the door when broken open it would not mean nothing. It would mean it played a part in the crime. There is no evidence to show this however. But Mignini's treatment of the lamp means a great deal. He put it in the cartoon and the court saw it being used by the defendants.

The cartoon solved a problem that might have been besetting the judges' minds. It was shown as being used in the clean-up and thus represents the mine-only machine and the selecta-vac device all in one. The cartoon portrayed the prosecution's crime theory. The lamp was an important element of the theory and screams out for a shred of evidence to support it.

Mignini knew he did not have this evidence when he was commissioning the film. Who do you think controlled the story-board for that film? Not the contractor, that's for sure. Why didn't he have the evidence? It was easily obtained. Just ask the very small handful of people who were there: did you notice the lamp or the cord stretched across the doorway? There is only one reason he couldn't elicit this evidence and that's because it didn't exist. I bet Battisteli told him right out that he moved it and Mignini knew all along it was never there.

This is the really important thing about it. It graphically shows the guy is a crook.
 
Grinder said:
Anglo while all your points are reasonable, I believe that the lamp means nothing since Amanda's room was right next to Meredith's and the only other room and lamp at that end of the house.

Whether it was the police or a perp that moved it, it is logical that Amanda's lamp would be the lamp of choice. Now if Amanda's or Raf's bloody fingerprint were on the lamp or the plug, tada!

ETA - if the lamp was from Laura's room and her room was next door to Meredith's room would anyone suggest it had any probative value? No, of course not. The lamp has no weight in the solving of the crime. Only after judging Amanda guilty can it be used as evidence.
Please don't ignore the lamp's multi-faceted and symbolic role! :) It not only represents the selecta-vac and mine-only machines but is also a black object that stands for the dark arts its master. The lamp illuminates his evil leer. :) It's that aspect that everyone seems determined to overlook imho.
 
Correctamundo! Please hold on to this idea!

will do, interesting theory which would definitely show what kind of dirty pool the prosecutor is playing


Because it's important. If the PGPs are right it proves something involving a lamp happened in the room in connection with the murder (unless Meredith borrowed it, which I dispute). If I'm right it means Mignini is a bent lawyer.

Regardless of whether you're right, Mignini strikes me as bent


No. Everyone was ushered out leaving the posties alone inside. But Battisteli was seen by Altieri lifting the quilt (before the ushering) and lied about it. Alarm bells.

Good point, I thought of that about an hour after I replied to your post

We are.


And she put the lamp ... at the foot of the bed behind the door.

maybe it was the only available outlet? More speculation....

I have the same wish but I've read all the books including the Book of Grinder and not a one has a single reference to positive evidence about the lamp. Everyone just assumes it was in there. It's a mass blind spot. Massei also passes over it, merely recording that Amanda was asked about it and said she didn't notice her lamp was missing.

unless one can remove the speculation from the equation, I still fail to see how its useful to either side. Personally, I couldn't use the lamp as part of the evidence used for conviction based on what I know about it so far


You aren't more wrong than everyone else. Thanks for listening. :)

My pleasure, I'm always open to let the evidence sway me in whichever direction I should go
 
Good, I'm glad you don't like her, only strengthens my belief in her, I've seen her reporting and she is very fair, because she doesn't follow the Knox PR campaign and isn't a Knox fan boy is a very large point in her favor. Barbie is one of the best covering this story, like it or not.


What in particular do you admire about Barbies reporting?

I like the fact she was the only one to report that Meredith had a Brazilian wax job...errr... down there, plus that Meredith had recently experimented with anal sex.

Pulitzer material IMO.
 
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