New Disclosures on Benghazi

[RandFan]

I guess 16.5 still has me on ignore. Oh, well.

Everyone else can read what you are writing. It's largely moot. No one gives a **** except 16.5. I think he is simply talking to himself. Not a single fact has changed.

 

[spin0]

People have asserted that under Bush 12 attacks resulted in 62 deaths. However, “under Obama's watch” and applying the the same analysis the Benghazi attack shows that attacks alone accounted for in excess of 100 deaths.

What?

That makes Benghazi the most deadly attack since the African Embassy Bombings in 1998 under Clinton.

Certainly not. Four people died in Bengahazi attack, ten was injured. We don't know if any of the attackers were killed or wounded.

Further, Benghazi represents the first time that US Diplomatic facility was over run since the Embassies in Iran, Libya and Pakistan under President Carter in 1979.

In 2004 US consulate in Yeddah, Saudi Arabia was raided by five Al-Queda gunmen. Terrorists entered through the front gate at 11:15 am. After a firefight they set one building on fire and took 17 hostages. Later the compound was stormed by Saudi Arabian special forces. Five workes of consulate died, ten was injured in the attack. Four of the attackers were killed.

During the attack the vice consul Monica Lemieux was left outside the safe rooms. Luckily she was only slightly wounded and kept hidden by personnel. Timeline and analysis of events: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/...derscores-fall-in-capabilities-of-saudi-milit (pdf)

That five gunmen can enter and raid a consulate in the middle of the day in a high risk area indicates there has been a failure in security and defence. So who was found accountable? Unfortunately Accountability Review Board's report was declared secret and doesn't seem to be publicly available. The blame landed on the consul general Gina Abercrombie-Winstanley:
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1378405#.UZKi-PKa-So

The American flag goes back up, and those in charge begin their own bureaucratic version of "duck and cover" to avoid blame.

"The State Department should have been on alert, should have been on high security standards in Jeddah," said Clarke, now a consultant for ABC News. "The fact that they weren't means that someone wasn't doing their job."

A secret State Department review of the incident, obtained by ABC News, found that while security measures met standards, they were "inadequate" to stop the terrorists.

"The implications of that are pretty serious because it means the worldwide standards being used to secure our hundreds of diplomatic installations aren't good enough," Clarke said.

The secret State Department review concluded that no one breached his or her duty, but noted, "leadership problems in Jeddah," and found that the officials in charge of security "received little support" from the consul general.

Gina Abercrombie-Winstanley, the consul general, is no longer posted in Saudi Arabia and declined to comment on the incident in an appearance in Cleveland last week.

The secret review found "a widespread negative perception among the consulate staff of the consul general's degree for security," which did not surprise Diebler, a former State Department security officer.

 

[The Big Dog]

We don't know if any of the attackers were killed or wounded.

I have a source that indicates over 100 were killed: Murphy, Jack and Brandon Webb (2013). Benghazi: The Definitive report. New York, NY.

Thank you, however, for pointing out that the numbers regarding the Bush Era attacks do include the terrorists.

(which is of course just another way of showing that a tu quoque fallacy is a fallacy for a reason)

 

[A'isha]

I have a source that indicates over 100 were killed: Murphy, Jack and Brandon Webb (2013). Benghazi: The Definitive report. New York, NY.

Thank you, however, for pointing out that the numbers regarding the Bush Era attacks do include the terrorists.

In other words, more non-terrorists died during attacks on State Department facilities under Bush than under Obama, and more terrorists have been killed under Obama than under Bush.

 

[Travis]

That darn windmill just keeps on fighting back!

 

[The Big Dog]

That darn windmill just keeps on fighting back!

Yes, I thought it was ironic that the Administration leaked an e-mail to CNN and NBC.

 

[Newtons Bit]

We call these special circumstances. It's a form of special pleading when you pick and choose in an ad hoc fashion which circumstances justify your claim. That's textbook special pleading.

I think you need to read the wikipedia page on special pleading before deciding what is a "textbook" example.

 

[spin0]

I have a source that indicates over 100 were killed: Murphy, Jack and Brandon Webb (2013). Benghazi: The Definitive report. New York, NY.

That's a ludicrous claim. If there were over hundred dead how come we don't see those piles of bodies in videos and photographs, and how come there are no eyewitness accounts of such, nor any news reports about them, and no mention in the ARB report of the events:

Through the course of its inquiry, the Board interviewed over 100 individuals, reviewed thousands of pages of documents, and viewed hours of video footage.

Piffle.

Thank you, however, for pointing out that the numbers regarding the Bush Era attacks do include the terrorists.

You must be talking about somebody else.

 

[The Big Dog]

That's a ludicrous claim. If there were over hundred dead how come we don't see those piles of bodies in videos and photographs, and how come there are no eyewitness accounts of such, nor any news reports about them, and no mention in the ARB report of the events:

Thank you for your response, although I'll note that the FBI didn't get into Benghazi for several weeks. Further, there appear to be no references to the Libyans who died at the Annex, as Mr. Hicks testified to:

Shortly after they arrived at the annex, the mortars came. First mortar round was long. It landed, actually, among the Libyans who escorted our people. They took casualties from us that night. And the next was short. The next three landed on the roof, killing Glen and Tyrone, severely wounding David. They didn’t know whether any more mortars were going to come in. The accuracy was terribly precise. The call was, the next one is coming through the roof, maybe, if it hit.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

I have a source that indicates over 100 were killed: Murphy, Jack and Brandon Webb (2013). Benghazi: The Definitive report. New York, NY.

Thank you, however, for pointing out that the numbers regarding the Bush Era attacks do include the terrorists.

(which is of course just another way of showing that a tu quoque fallacy is a fallacy for a reason)

I'm not understanding this at all. I would consider it to be a good thing if lots of terrorists got killed. Why are you making it sound like a bad thing?

 

[jj]

Well, now Forbes has put the final end to the idea the White House was trying any kind of deception, and was rather trying to get a handle on the bunch of agencies that were pointing at each other and leaking self-defense stories.

I hope this conversation is over. Any further discussion really belongs in conspiracy theories, although the accidental conspiracy on the part of several agencies to shift the blame hither and yon makes it a different kind of conspiracy theory.

 

[spin0]

Thank you for your response, although I'll note that the FBI didn't get into Benghazi for several weeks.

FBI or not there certainly wasn't 100 dead. Ridiculous.

 

[A'isha]

Well, now Forbes has put the final end to the idea the White House was trying any kind of deception, and was rather trying to get a handle on the bunch of agencies that were pointing at each other and leaking self-defense stories.

I hope this conversation is over. Any further discussion really belongs in conspiracy theories, although the accidental conspiracy on the part of several agencies to shift the blame hither and yon makes it a different kind of conspiracy theory.

I see 16.5 completely brushed over the fact that CNN posted an actual image of the email, and that it doesn't say what ABC reported it said.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Cheney: Benghazi ‘one of the worst incidents that I can recall’

He's got a point. I'm hard pressed to think of anything worse. Katrina and the lie by Bush that such an event could not be anticipated even though a direct hit on New Orleans by a hurricane was at the top of FEMA's list. Rice ignoring warnings about 9/11, the attacks on diplomatic targets that resulted in the death of 64 people. These all pale compared to Benghazi.

Yep. That's the kind of rhetoric that bugs me. It's got no connection to reality.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

People have asserted that under Bush 12 attacks resulted in 62 deaths. However, “under Obama's watch” and applying the the same analysis the Benghazi attack shows that attacks alone accounted for in excess of 100 deaths.

Really? You've got information the rest of the world lacks?

That makes Benghazi the most deadly attack since the African Embassy Bombings in 1998 under Clinton.

Right!

Further, Benghazi represents the first time that US Diplomatic facility was over run since the Embassies in Iran, Libya and Pakistan under President Carter in 1979.

Oh I get it. You're doing one of those alternate history thought experiments, right?

 

[RandFan]

I think you need to read the wikipedia page on special pleading before deciding what is a "textbook" example.

I read it years ago. It's textbook.

 

[The Big Dog]

I'm not understanding this at all. I would consider it to be a good thing if lots of terrorists got killed. Why are you making it sound like a bad thing?

As my post noted, it is a method of demonstrating the tu quoque fallacy that has been used so frequently in discussing the subject.

Well, now Forbes has put the final end to the idea the White House was trying any kind of deception, and was rather trying to get a handle on the bunch of agencies that were pointing at each other and leaking self-defense stories.

I hope this conversation is over. Any further discussion really belongs in conspiracy theories, although the accidental conspiracy on the part of several agencies to shift the blame hither and yon makes it a different kind of conspiracy theory.

I notice the lack of a link. Are you referring to the commentary from the the person who says: "I write from the left on politics and policy," or the commentary written by the person who describes himself as "I’m a longtime political strategist, Fox News contributor, and author." They both have published quite different takes on the latest developments in the last 12 hours in Forbes.

FBI or not there certainly wasn't 100 dead. Ridiculous.

I'll notice the lack of a cite, and thank you for your contribution.

 

[elbe]

Yes, I thought it was ironic that the Administration leaked an e-mail to CNN and NBC.

Why?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

As my post noted, it is a method of demonstrating the tu quoque fallacy that has been used so frequently in discussing the subject.

Nope--that doesn't make a lick of sense. I cited comparable figures on the frequency, number and severity of terrorist attacks on U.S. diplomatic facilities to point out that, sadly, this happens relatively often.

You're the one claiming this was the worst one in however long based on the number of terrorists killed (and that number comes from dubious sources at best). Worst for whom?

Are you expecting a lot of sympathy for the bad guys?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

FBI or not there certainly wasn't 100 dead. Ridiculous.

I'll notice the lack of a cite, and thank you for your contribution.

Try this one:

The American diplomatic mission at Benghazi, in Libya, was attacked on September 11, 2012 by a heavily armed group. The attack began during the night at a compound that is meant to protect the consulate building. A second assault in the early morning the next day targeted a nearby CIA annex in a different diplomatic chttp://www.libyaherald.com/2012/09/15/no-libyans-died-in-benghazi-attack/ompound. Four people were killed, including U.S. Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens. Ten others were injured.

<snip>

Four Americans died in the attack: Ambassador Stevens, Information Officer Sean Smith,[71] and two embassy security personnel, Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods,[72][73] both former Navy SEALs.[74][75] Senior intelligence officials later acknowledged that Woods and Doherty were contracted by Central Intelligence Agency, not the State Department as previously identified,[76] and were part of a Global Response Staff (GRS), a team that provides security to CIA case officers and countersurveillance and surveillance protection.[77] On September 14 the remains of the slain Americans were returned to the United States. President Barack Obama and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton honored the Benghazi victims at the Transfer of Remains Ceremony held at Andrews Air Force Base, Joint Base Andrews, Maryland.

Initial reports indicated that ten Libyan guards died; this was later retracted and it was reported that seven Libyans were injured.[78] Three Americans were injured in the attack and treated at an American Military Hospital in Germany.[79]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Benghazi_attack

ETA: And a couple of the cites in the Wiki article:

http://www.libyaherald.com/2012/09/15/no-libyans-died-in-benghazi-attack/

http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2012/09/197630.htm