Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

so the prosecution has to prove a negative, that Rudy didn't come in through the window that there is no proof that he did?

I think you guys are clinging on to the fingerprint thing b/c I been owning you across the board on everything else. the fingerprint thing isn't crucial to my case against Knox, it was just one of many things that points to a clean up effort, if true.

Nadaue made the point that there was no blood found in the rest of the house, except for the 5 mixed blood samples, which is surprising given the volume of the victim's blood in bedroom. you would think the multiple killers would have tracked some of that around into the other rooms so this is evidence of a clean up effort. also she points out that no fingerprints were found on the door to the victim's bedroom that was locked and pulled shut. so obviously they were being careful about fingerprints at that point and so it logical to believe they probably engaged in some kind of clean up effort.

Dr. Tesla. Please explain how someone can remove two set of prints and leave a third set intact.

 

[DrTesla]

Here's a quote from Nadeau:

BARBIE NADEAU: But Amanda was the first person to mention sex. Because she said that Patrick wanted to have sex with Meredith and that she brought Patrick into the house to have sex with Meredith, she said she heard the screams, she described the screams, she covered her ears - that's why Amanda Knox is in prison, no one was ever able to erase that to the extent that they could free her. Whether they should have or not we don't know.

Barbie is not very bright. I wish this video was still up because she show herself in it.

The papers talked about sex from the second day. In no way did Amanda bring up sex first.

This was from this show which took place August of 2011.

lol, Barbie is right, Knox did make it about sex when she falsely said her boss tried to have sex with the victim prior to killing her. that seems like an amazing detail to give if they were forcing her to just name Patrick as the killer. did they also suggest to her that Patrick raped or tried to rape the victim? At some point you have to wave the white flag and declare this babe guilty. don't fight your natural inclination.

if Knox didn't act like you now what at the sex shop whiling buying a G-string with her "boyfriend", the papers would haven't much to go with regarding a sex angle.

 

[DrTesla]

Dr. Tesla. Please explain how someone can remove two set of prints and leave a third set intact.

well, it easily could be done if the prints didn't overlap which was probably the case in some areas.


I read somewhere that it looked like Rudy's prints were not where it seems they should be in a few areas of the house, and the theory was they were wiped away b/c there was overlap with the other two's prints.

if Rudy fled the house immediately and the other two did not, and his bloody footprints head straight to the door, their main goal would be to preserve that trail, b/c it is enough to implicate him and obviously their prints did not go straight to the door b/c they washed off the blood on the feet and hands in the bathroom which explains the mixed DNA of knox and victim's blood found in there.

 

[Dan O.]

Fingerprints are quite delecate. All of the fingerprints had to have been made after the surface was scrubbed down. If you look at who made the print on Amanda's closet door, you'll find out who was wandering around the cottage after the cleanup.

 

[DrTesla]

Who touched the door knob in the morning before and while it was being opened? Amanda, Raf, Luca, the PP and ????

no prints were found on the victim's bedroom door when had been locked from the inside and pulled shut. not even meridith's fingerprints. no cleanup? Hmmmmm.

why take time to clean that up or wear gloves to prevent new prints if you are going to just leave other traces of yourself in the house? Hmmmmmmm.

who, I wonder, would have the most reason to remove traces of herself from the house? could it be someone with a key to the house? hmmmmmmm.

 

[DrTesla]

i'm surprised they didn't find some prints on Amanda's lamp, given it probably had a metallic or plastic surface ideal for prints. does anybody know if it was even tested for prints?

the best evidence and really unassailible proof of the cleanup effort is that lamp on the floor in the bedroom. just can't see any other reason why it would be in there, especially on the floor. the fact that it doesn't seem likely rudy put the lamp on the floor prior to the murder (b/c his footprints indicate he left immediately after the murder) seems to only leave Knox or raf as the person who put it in there, given it's her lamp and she's the accused. I guess friends of Amanda argue Meridith borrowed it but I don't buy that b/c the two were not best buddies and you'd think tensions b/t them would prevent this kind of borrowing of each other's stuff. plus why would it be on the floor if she borrowed it for light? Hmmmmmmm. so many questions , so few anwers.

 

[Dan O.]

Rudy could have thrown the rock through the window and then waited a little while and then noticed Meredith coming home at 9:00 and then went straight to the door.

That doesn't explain the poo in the loo.

 

[DrTesla]

if there's Rudy's poo in the loo you must convict Knox and Raff. that screams social call not break in in this humble reporters mind.

I bet Knox wishes she flushed it instead of preserving it to set up rudy as the only fall guy for their crime.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

so the entire 8 person jury rejected Science (TM) in the first trial. Hmmmmm.

you can keep wrapping up your belief Knox is innocent in the idea "it is Science (TM)" but I'm confident the next appeals trial is going to find her guilty based on the same logic that I've applied to the evidence.

your assertion is that it is perfectly logical there is no Rudy DNA, or any other trace like debris from the yard, in the bedfroom where he ostensibly came in, but the lack of DNA of Knox and Raff in the victim's room is proof that only Rudy did the murder.

There's no evidence the police looked terribly hard for evidence that Rudy came in by the window. There are certainly things in the crime scene photos that look to my untrained eye very much like scuffing on the brick wall outside the window he entered by, and white smudging on the floor of Filomena's room which looks a lot like the white paint below the window where the scuff marks are. There's even fresh brickwork visible where it looks like a nail got knocked out of the wall, perhaps by someone climbing in the window. They sure look a lot more like evidence somebody climbed through the window than, say, the footprint on the mat looks like Raffaele's foot.

That aside, it's much more extraordinary for someone to engage in a life-or-death struggle while leaving no DNA trace on the victim than it is for someone to walk through a room leaving no DNA trace on the room. This is especially so if you favour theories where Knox and Sollecito are wrestling Meredith to restrain her for some reason, as opposed to the even stranger ones where they watch from the doorway or something.

I find that logically inconsistent (and of course you guys always ignore or dismiss the Raffe DNA found on the bra clasp even though it would seem that is about the most damning place it could have been found for our hero Raff, and Knox herself b/c only she could have let him in).

I guess back in 2008, where your talking points come from, they hadn't got the results of the independent examination of the DNA evidence back.

The bra clasp was improperly collected and stored, as is bloody obvious from the fact that it had DNA from multiple unidentified people on it. Unless you think Meredith Kercher was murdered by six or more people, the only possible conclusion is that the bra clasp was contaminated at some point. On top of all that, the bra clasp "match" wasn't even a conclusive match for Raffaele, it could have matched any number of other men equally well.

The fact that the bra clasp DNA was "accidentally" destroyed by improper storage before it could be re-tested suggests that Stefanoni is either massively incompetent, or that a second round of testing would discover things she didn't want discovered. It joins a long list of important pieces of evidence either not collected, or collected and then destroyed by the Perugian law enforcement team.

It's also a bit suggestive that the bra clasp was "discovered" in a very late return trip to the murder scene, just after the one single, solitary piece of evidence they had against Raffaele, his alleged shoe print, was revealed to be Rudy Guede's shoe print instead. One could be forgiven for speculating that they knew they had no evidence against him and they had to manufacture some quick smart.

so in summary, DNA evidence is only DNA evidence if it points to Rudy's guilt and not the other two.

It's evidence if it's properly collected, stored and analysed and if it actually points to someone whose DNA has no business being there.

That said, Stefanoni is definitely incompetent at the very least, even if she's not guilty of actively fabricating evidence. If all they had on Rudy was a DNA test from her lab made under similar circumstances, I'd be very skeptical about his guilt too. Fortunately his palm print, his flight and his Skype call all make it overwhelmingly likely he was Meredith Kercher's murderer.

 

[Bill Williams]

well, it easily could be done if the prints didn't overlap which was probably the case in some areas.


I read somewhere that it looked like Rudy's prints were not where it seems they should be in a few areas of the house, and the theory was they were wiped away b/c there was overlap with the other two's prints.

if Rudy fled the house immediately and the other two did not, and his bloody footprints head straight to the door, their main goal would be to preserve that trail, b/c it is enough to implicate him and obviously their prints did not go straight to the door b/c they washed off the blood on the feet and hands in the bathroom which explains the mixed DNA of knox and victim's blood found in there.

And now the DNA.... explain the lack of Amanda's DNA in the murder room, as well as one on y-allele of Raffaele's, which perhaps matched half the men in the courtroom the day it was presented.

You have promoted the lamp to a magic lamp just on it's ability to recognize fingerprints.... I think it's a veritable Star Trek tricorder now that you have it recognizing DNA.

T repeat, how did a full set of Amanda's DNA get removed, all except for a single y-allele which only could have belonged to Raffaele, but still leave the full set of Rudy's.

 

[DrTesla]

And now the DNA.... explain the lack of Amanda's DNA in the murder room, as well as one on y-allele of Raffaele's, which perhaps matched half the men in the courtroom the day it was presented.

You have promoted the lamp to a magic lamp just on it's ability to recognize fingerprints.... I think it's a veritable Star Trek tricorder now that you have it recognizing DNA.

T repeat, how did a full set of Amanda's DNA get removed, all except for a single y-allele which only could have belonged to Raffaele, but still leave the full set of Rudy's.

a lamp has only one purpose and the fact it's sitting the floor in the room where the murder took place ........

the raff dna on the bra clasp can't be wished away or explained by contamination given the only other DNA of Raff in the house was on a cig in the kitchen. as the prosecution elegantly asserted, DNA doesnnt' fly!!!!

 

[Kaosium]

my thought as well

Interesting, complicated stuff. Does anyone know where the C&V report stands in terms of evidence? The pro-guilt guy at the other forum claims its now completely worthless as is the Hellman report because of the Supreme Court (or whatever the italian court is called) threw out/over ruled Hellmans verdict.

Stefanoni testifying before Massei that storing DNA items in plastic would degrade their usefulness and then when the bra-clasp was supposed to be re-tested it was found stored in plastic which had destroyed its usefulness is not that complicated really.

Regarding C&V and Hellmanns Report I do not know, I imagine it depends on what the Supreme Court's motivations for quashing the acquittal say. We know the Hellmann verdict has been rendered void, as for the evidence gathered that probably has to wait for the SC report, due at the latest sometime in late June. Conti and Vecchiotti were independent court experts, asked not by the defense or prosecution but by the court to render a determination of the validity of the DNA evidence, and to a lesser extent the whole forensic case. As their conclusions were perfectly in line with the literature and standard forensic procedures not only in Italy but worldwide (which they included voluminous support for) regardless of whether the SC agreed with some technicality the prosecution advanced it's still in reality good evidence of the competence and integrity of the prosecution.

Noted, the pro-guilt claim is that Meredith never went to Raf's apartment. Is there any evidence this is true or false?

I couldn't tell you for sure, but I doubt she did. Why would it matter? He's talking about when he cooked over at the cottage, which is where the cigarette butt came from. That's pretty clear from the fact that happened, that the context is shortly after Tiziano suggested Amanda might have taken it to the cottage to cook with, and that the girls lived in a 'house' (cottage) and Raffaele in an apartment.

yeah, my head hurts on this one because I've read lengthy arguments that the clock was ten minutes fast and that some expert testified he tested the clock on the camera and confirmed this and it was apparently presented at trial (sorry I don't have the source for this). The pro innocence reply in that thread was that the expert made a mistake but I find it hard to believe that someone tasked with such a simple exercise would make such a basic mistake.

I'm unsure what you're referring to as regards an 'expert' but I can guess where that might have come from. The Postal police arrived at ~12:47, but wrote down that it was 12:30 in their book. When the got there they putzed around for about 12 minutes before getting to the cottage, either doing paperwork, smoking, or they (like the carabinieri later) had trouble figuring out which address was which. Remember these guys are just there to return phones and know nothing about the murder at this juncture.

However it can be determined from the arrival of the carabinieri, whose arrival was preceded by calling for directions (which gives an absolutely certain time from the cell phone records) that the garage camera time was ~11 minutes slow. So it shows the postal police getting there (in their car) at 12:36 but its really ~12:47, and then it shows them entering the driveway at 12:48 (really ~12:59 PM). While the shot of them crossing the street only shows the bottom half of their legs, if you look at a birds-eye view here you can see there's only one place to go crossing that street there, (note they have a long driveway and it lets out at the top left of that picture) into the driveway of the cottage. This is not the only reason to think the Postal Police arrived about 1:00 PM, it's just the one with visual evidence. There's a number of other reasons, one of which Massei found so convincing (that at no point did anyone--including the postal police who were right there--ever note Raffaele calling the carabinieri after the arrival of the postal police) he dismissed the prosecution contention in passing in the passage I cited. As noted by Massei the conversation with the caribinieri was not brief and the time of that is definitely known, 12:51 PM.

I'm not taking sides on this one, I'm merely saying I am confused by all the noise and can't tell what the truth was in this regard

I was as well! I found it fascinating reading through it at night during my vacation.

Perhaps I am naive, but I would think an independent, non biased third party in charge of taking samples would do so and simply report what was found and not leave off parties that are not on trial.

There are a number of samples of that nature in the evidence, my point was more along the lines that the prosecution isn't making a case against anyone else and wasn't exactly forthcoming with information that they 'didn't need to make their case.' They also had no reason to look in a number of places where that sort of thing would be found, most all the mixed DNA samples are from the bathroom Amanda and Meredith shared, and swabbing that sink, bidet and cotton box for DNA (especially the way they did it) they're almost certainly going to get Amanda's (trace) DNA from normal use.

I would think DNA of all flatmates should be found and listed much like four male DNA samples were found on the bra strap. I don't know how important it is that we know who the other three males were but its relevant in my opinion to know that it wasn't only Raf's DNA as the multiple DNA found seems to lend credence to the argument that contamination could have occurred on the bra strap. In the same way, finding DNA from Filomena, etc along with Amanda's would go a long way towards making the argument that Amanda's DNA that was found mixed with Meredeths blood was simply the result of all of these people living together.

Yes, I agree. However the latter isn't an 'argument' it's basic forensic DNA science, especially dealing with trace DNA. Have you read any of the papers posted, or would you like more?

Note that initially not even the prosecution tried to pretend there was anything all that relevant regarding mixed DNA, they made the case that the luminol hits were blood, but that took a hit late in the case when it was discovered they'd hadn't released the negative blood tests (TMB) to the defense and for the rest of them not even Massei couldt accept that mixed DNA in blood equals mixed blood because it doesn't and once the anyone sees what they did to get the 'mixed DNA' it becomes pretty damned obvious they could hardly avoid it.

Lemme put it this way, if you knew that a police officer doing an investigation had taken a sample of the victim's blood and rubbed it in the sink of the accused and then presented it as 'mixed DNA' and claimed from there it must be 'mixed blood' even though it was known that there were no wounds on the accused and that person had been meticulously examined four-five days after the murder, what would you think?

That's effectively what happened, though it was more incompetence on the part of the forensic technicians (or they knew that anything found there couldn't be used against a resident and thus wanted a big sample in hopes of finding someone else) and then amplified by Mignini's lack of integrity and Stefanoni's willingness to present his 'hypothesis' in court, even though she also testified that it was impossible to determine.

I admit I may be merely seeing things in the photo in the same way people can see faces in the clouds and if I was at the crime scene and had better photos, I might not see what I think I see. The fact that no prosecutor pointed out what I think I see makes me think I'm probably seeing the texture of the tile look like the heel. Here's the photo I am getting this impression from:


[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img163/740/mattfoot.jpg[/qimg]

Ah, OK, I cannot see much of anything there. It was my understanding that the bathmat was moved, and I didn't know there was anyone who ever contended otherwise. I thought it originally was outside the shower and ended up in front of the sink, though I'm not sure how certain that ever was, it just made sense that the bathmat was originally in front of the shower as that's where they often are.

 

[Kaosium]

exactly, she's just a college girl but you act like the entire Italian justice system was out to get her

Not all, certainly. However Mignini sure was, and he had the backing of the Perugian Polizia di Stato who'd stuffed it up bigtime arresting Patrick and making such a display of themselves celebrating their 'solving' of the case.

for reasons other than she was the roommate the murdered victim, the murder took place in her house that she had a key to, she had no alibi, and her story didn't add up.

They had a broken window, money, credit cards and phones missing, evidence of ruffling around the house and a local petty-burglar missing who'd fled to Germany after leaving his DNA all over the murder room.

So they harassed a college girl who had an alibi until she freaked and told them what they wanted to hear because they'd convinced her they must be right. They then arrested her alibi too despite finding nothing of either of them at the scene until they produced some 'evidence' that appeared to scream 'you can't think we're corrupt if we do it this incompetently!'

The whole case is a study in how incompetence breeds corruption.

 

[Grinder]

Here's a quote from Nadeau:

BARBIE NADEAU: But Amanda was the first person to mention sex. Because she said that Patrick wanted to have sex with Meredith and that she brought Patrick into the house to have sex with Meredith, she said she heard the screams, she described the screams, she covered her ears - that's why Amanda Knox is in prison, no one was ever able to erase that to the extent that they could free her. Whether they should have or not we don't know.

Barbie is not very bright. I wish this video was still up because she show herself in it.

The papers talked about sex from the second day. In no way did Amanda bring up sex first.

This was from this show which took place August of 2011.

lol, Barbie is right, Knox did make it about sex when she falsely said her boss tried to have sex with the victim prior to killing her. that seems like an amazing detail to give if they were forcing her to just name Patrick as the killer. did they also suggest to her that Patrick raped or tried to rape the victim? At some point you have to wave the white flag and declare this babe guilty. don't fight your natural inclination.

if Knox didn't act like you now what at the sex shop whiling buying a G-string with her "boyfriend", the papers would haven't much to go with regarding a sex angle.

By Chris Hastings and Jasper Copping in Perugia12:01AM GMT 04 Nov 2007A British student murdered in Italy may have invited the killer into her home, police investigating her death now believe.
Officers think Meredith Kercher, 21, left three flatmates to go home alone after watching a film on the night she was murdered because she had arranged to see a man she had met the previous night at a Hallowe'en party.

Miss Kercher, whose parents live in Coulsden, Surrey, was a student at Leeds University on a foreign exchange trip in Perugia, central Italy.

Police said last night there were indications that she had sex before she was stabbed in the neck. Her attacker locked the bedroom door before fleeing the house and dumping her two mobile phones in a nearby garden.

Barbie et al. wrong that she brought up sex first/

 

[DrTesla]

Not all, certainly. However Mignini sure was, and he had the backing of the Perugian Polizia di Stato who'd stuffed it up bigtime arresting Patrick and making such a display of themselves celebrating their 'solving' of the case.



They had a broken window, money, credit cards and phones missing, evidence of ruffling around the house and a local petty-burglar missing who'd fled to Germany after leaving his DNA all over the murder room.

So they harassed a college girl who had an alibi until she freaked and told them what they wanted to hear because they'd convinced her they must be right. They then arrested her alibi too despite finding nothing of either of them at the scene until they produced some 'evidence' that appeared to scream 'you can't think we're corrupt if we do it this incompetently!'

The whole case is a study in how incompetence breeds corruption.

she didn't have an alibi, the boyfriend yanked it from her. why would they want to hear that Patrick was the killer? they didn't even know who he was at that point, he was simply the recipient of a text message from Knox.

why do you think Knox threw in the detail that Patrick was trying to have sex with the victim, and that she was also at the cottage? she didn't just give them Patrick as the killer, she included the accusation of rape and put herself there. to me this story jives with what really happened except replace one black man Patrick with another Guede.

trying to demonize Mignini is foolish, he's untouchable

 

[DrTesla]

By Chris Hastings and Jasper Copping in Perugia12:01AM GMT 04 Nov 2007A British student murdered in Italy may have invited the killer into her home, police investigating her death now believe.
Officers think Meredith Kercher, 21, left three flatmates to go home alone after watching a film on the night she was murdered because she had arranged to see a man she had met the previous night at a Hallowe'en party.

Miss Kercher, whose parents live in Coulsden, Surrey, was a student at Leeds University on a foreign exchange trip in Perugia, central Italy.

Police said last night there were indications that she had sex before she was stabbed in the neck. Her attacker locked the bedroom door before fleeing the house and dumping her two mobile phones in a nearby garden.

Barbie et al. wrong that she brought up sex first/

you really want to argue that Knox only said Patrick tried to rape her b/c she read something like this in the newspaper? why would you add an additional detail like this if all the police want you to do is accuse Patrick of the murder?

 

[JREF2010]

you really want to argue that Knox only said Patrick tried to rape her b/c she read something like this in the newspaper? why would you add an additional detail like this if all the police want you to do is accuse Patrick of the murder?

If a person reads up on interrogations, how they can work and how they can produce incorrect results, it would help in understanding the mystery.

and again, its only a mystery because it wasnt recorded.

 

[JREF2010]

What "running washing machine"?

Have I entered a time warp without realising it?

Rolfe.

You havent heard? Matteini just convicted Patrick again.

 

[Kaosium]

!

she didn't have an alibi, the boyfriend yanked it from her. why would they want to hear that Patrick was the killer? they didn't even know who he was at that point, he was simply the recipient of a text message from Knox.

Did you ever wonder why they didn't ever interrogate or for that matter even ask Raffaele much of anything about the murder? The statement they got from him is all about what Amanda was doing. They'd later arrest him, but they would sit and go after Amanda for hours about someone else, and then arrest Patrick on the basis of those confused delusional-sounding statements. Why do you suppose it never occurred to them that Raffaele might be the rapist? After all they must have realized Amanda didn't do the raping part, yet still it never occurred to them that Amanda might be protecting Raffaele and then to be skeptical about such a ridiculous 'witness' statement?

We know they had Amanda and Raffaele's phones tapped, we know they had taped their conversations in other parts of the police station, we know they were following the both of them.

We also know they were aware Amanda had met Patrick the day (or day before) the interrogation and thought that relevant enough to include in the statement they typed up for her. We know they'd soon get a 'witness' to Patrick's bar being closed. We know they were looking for an African man the days directly after the murder and before arresting Raffaele, Amanda and Patrick.

So when they shoved that phone in Amanda's face and demanded she tell them who she had exchanged texts with, are you certain they didn't know who that was already? They certainly had the ability to find out, they'd proven they were very interested in who Amanda was talking to and what she was saying, and we know they were very sensitive to any 'suggestion' p) that they might have had something to do with the arrest of Patrick outside following the commands of the (nearly) teenaged Demoness who'd enslaved them so completely they couldn't think straight.

why do you think Knox threw in the detail that Patrick was trying to have sex with the victim, and that she was also at the cottage? she didn't just give them Patrick as the killer, she included the accusation of rape and put herself there. to me this story jives with what really happened except replace one black man Patrick with another Guede.

One little girl, twelve police officers, some of whom with experience breaking Mafioso, who do you really think was running that interrogation? Who was asking the questions and insisting on answers they wanted and making the demands?

Remember, they'd insist that Amanda had buckled and given them the answers they knew to be correct, they said that right when they announced the 'case was closed.'

trying to demonize Mignini is foolish, he's untouchable

He's still a corrupt lying scumbag. So there!

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Really? Have you ever been high on heroin or any opiate based drug like morphine, or oxycodone? Add in the fact that Toto was not only high, he was homeless where issues such as mental illness are significant. The fact that Toto said he saw the disco buses when they weren't running and that kids were dressed in costumes that night clearly shows that Curatolo's testimony is not reliable and certainly detracts from his credibility.

No one could possibly know he was stoned that night and even if he was, at least he can remember pretty well what went on, unlike a couple of pot smokers who lost their mind completely for months until an angle nun appeared to one of them in jail. Who's story sounds more likely?

So lets say you are right that the TOD is between 9:30 and 10:00. Which is fine with me although I do believe it was earlier and more like between 9 and 9:15.

Meredith likely got home about 9:05, the attack would have been shortly after but I don't think the fatal blow happened for a while, Meredith had 40 some wounds I believe, I think the last one was the fatal one.

We know for a fact that Raffaele was at his apartment at 9:10. You have Amanda and Raffaele meeting with Rudy and continuing on to the cottage probably no earlier than 9:30. We know that Rudy didn't come home with Meredith as Meredith was shown at her gate at 9:00 so he had to arrive with Amanda and Raffaele or show up by himself sometime between 9 and 9:30 knocked on the cottage door and Meredith invited him in. It is my understanding that Meredith didn't know Rudy like Amanda didn't know Rudy. They saw him a couple of times but never really associated with him.

I have never said Raf and Amanda met Rudi, you have mistaken. I said Amanda left Raff to get a mop and change to go out now that their evening was free and the weekend as well. Amanda met Rudi on here way home, Rudi needed to use the washroom, when they arrived, either Meredith was already home or came shortly after, sound familiar.

This whole scenario sort of screams of premeditation as you have Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy murdering Meredith within minutes of them arriving at the cottage. Also, it is pretty clear that Rudy must have left with the phones alone as it really appears that the 10:13 call that was handled by the distant Wind tower handled the call. Sort of rules out the drug fueled orgy doesn't it? Then, if you believe old Toto, Amanda and Raffaele returned to the Piazza multiple times...remember Toto doesn't mention Rudy.

Again, you have my story totally mixed up with someone other. Toto never see's Rudi, just Amanda and Raff.

But how can it be premeditation? Rudy didn't know Raffaele, barely knew Amanda, and having no real history with them couldn't really trust them. Rudy didn't speak English, Amanda barely spoke any Italian and Raffale spoke little English.

Rudi does not know Raff at all, the first time he see's him is after Amanda ran home, got Raff who took the biggest knife out of his drawer and returned to the cottage with Amanda, who stayed outside while Raff went in and met Rudi, again, sound familiar. Remember during the appeal when Amanda says, 'this is the first time the three of us have been under the same roof at the same time', she was actually telling the truth.

Do you really think this scenario makes any sense??

Mine makes perfect sense, your does not, in order for the innocent side to make sense, you have to totally disregard so many things that happened, their lies, the way they acted, the staged break in, the foot print out of Meredith's door and who locked it, and that cart wheel that Amanda now says was the splits, the bare foot prints, the mixed blood the bathmat, it just goes on and on and not only that, look at how many people you have that have to totally lie, be totally inept in their jobs, police, science investigators, judges and on and on and on.