Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

you are not being logical. how did raff get into the apartment without Knox? If he was there and participating in the murder of HER roommate, you dont' think that is proof of her presence, especially since she claimed she was with him all night?

also, they did find evidence of her in the house, and the entire house is the crime scene. her mixed dna with victim's blood, her bloody footprints as exposed by the luminol.

Sorry, there is NO footprint of Knox's in blood. The test was never done. It was assumed. How did Raff get in without Knox? He was never there. The DNA on the bra-clasp is not Raff's - it is a Y-allele that could match many men.

I think this is the trouble I am having with logic like the above. It is assertion, without the evidence behind it.

The point is: in Massei's report, there is nothing which places Amanda Knox in the murder room, and this is the basis for Giuliano Mignini himself saying that perhaps she orchestrated everything from out in the hall.

 

[DrTesla]

reality is Knox apologists are forced to support the lone wolf theory and the idea broke in though the high window, no matter how illogical, b/c multiple attackers and a staged break in point to Knox and Raff's guilt. that's why it's important to make them own their illogical views on these two points. it's obvious they will argue for innocence against all logic and I want to expose that.

 

[anglolawyer]

In the united states, black people tend to be very wary of the police given our history of slavery and segregation and discrimination. I c an't see a black man chosing to scale up the side of the house to the highest window, not once, but at least twice and then having to deal with the shutters to gain access. he's going to pick a lower access point so he can get in as quickly as possible without being seen, at least in the states. given the fact rudy is not very tall, and the picture of the guy on the defense who tried it shows a very tall man and it still looks difficult, there's just no way. plus there is no evidence he went in that way. knox supporters make a big deal about none of her dna in the bedroom, but they seem ok with absolutely on dna from guide in the fiol's room, and no other trace of him being there as well. I find that hilarious, and probably racist in one degree or another.

What? A black guy wouldn't do something in Italy because of the stuff other black people are scared of in the US?

Hey, can you turn your mind to my question: what time did Amanda invite Rudy in?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

spiderman

Candace Dempsey wrote, "Even Judge Paolo Micheli, no fan of suspects Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, said that climbing through that window would not require “a Spiderman.” This was way back in October 2008, when he sentenced Rudy Guede to 30 years in prison and sent Raffaele and Amanda off to trial:" True, this is Micheli, not Massei, but it still gets the point across: we are not talking about crossing the Khumbu Icefall.

 

[DrTesla]

Sorry, there is NO footprint of Knox's in blood. The test was never done. It was assumed. How did Raff get in without Knox? He was never there. The DNA on the bra-clasp is not Raff's - it is a Y-allele that could match many men.

I think this is the trouble I am having with logic like the above. It is assertion, without the evidence behind it.

The point is: in Massei's report, there is nothing which places Amanda Knox in the murder room, and this is the basis for Giuliano Mignini himself saying that perhaps she orchestrated everything from out in the hall.

i'd say you believe in the paranormal and supernatural. I am a man of science and logic, myself.

 

[Bill Williams]

Suggesting that a hypothetical doablity means that something was done is absurd. if you want to argue guide is the lone killer, you should just say he was invited in by meridith or maybe he found the front door open somehow (maybe meridith had left it open while taking out the trash, Knox herself suggested this what she thought regarding why it was open when she returned, Guede just walked in. there's no way he accessed the cottage through that window, both the illogic of it and the lack of evidence supporting that theory slaps it down as the entry point.

What I am responding to is that many say that the climb is NOT doable. The climb is VERY doable. The extent of Massei's reasoning is that he would not have climbed up three times, for reasons other than doability.

I am not yet arguing anything about a lone killer, really. There are those in this whole thread who argue that very point, they say that Meredith invited him in, or Guede forced his way in at the front door and then faked the break-in himself.

All I am saying is that in the very narrow point of the doability of the climb, Judge Massei confirms it is doable. That's all.

 

[DrTesla]

Candace Dempsey wrote, "Even Judge Paolo Micheli, no fan of suspects Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, said that climbing through that window would not require “a Spiderman.” This was way back in October 2008, when he sentenced Rudy Guede to 30 years in prison and sent Raffaele and Amanda off to trial:" True, this is Micheli, not Massei, but it still gets the point across: we are not talking about crossing the Khumbu Icefall.

ok, so where is the evidence he did the climb? He did it at least twice so why was there no evidence of it? Why no evidence of him in that room? I find that amazing. i'm sure man can do all sorts of things but in a murder trial the point is to prove your claims. don't see any evidence of this claim and it's just nto logical a man is gong to pick the point with the most effort to break in, all within view from a main road, when other options are available. you have to look at these things from a psychological, human nature, standpoint.

 

[DrTesla]

saying the climb is doable is a straw man. so what? there's no evidence he did it and it makes no sense he would have targeted that window unless he just like dealing with a greater hassle and putting himself at greater risk of being seen.

 

[Bill Williams]

Sorry, there is NO footprint of Knox's in blood. The test was never done. It was assumed. How did Raff get in without Knox? He was never there. The DNA on the bra-clasp is not Raff's - it is a Y-allele that could match many men.

I think this is the trouble I am having with logic like the above. It is assertion, without the evidence behind it.

The point is: in Massei's report, there is nothing which places Amanda Knox in the murder room, and this is the basis for Giuliano Mignini himself saying that perhaps she orchestrated everything from out in the hall.

i'd say you believe in the paranormal and supernatural. I am a man of science and logic, myself.

Ok - fair enough. But before assigning me to the supernatural - can you cite the evidence that says that the footprint in the hall is Amanda's and that it is in blood. Or are you just asserting it?

The point stands. There is nothing in Massei's motivations report which places Amanda Knox in the murder room. Indeed, if she'd been there the forensic trace pointing to her would have matched that which pointed to Guede.

Judge Massei makes NO mention of a clean-up in the murder room, meaning one that removed the forensic trace of two of three attackers... as if that was even possible.

Can you describe the method by which someone removes their own forensic trace whil leaving the full trace of another? That's what I mean - Massei could not go there. He had to surmise Amanda being in the cottage outside of the room, because of "Knox's biological material mixed with Mereidth's blood," which when one considers that Knox lived there - is not surprising.

I ask you - was the cottage in sterile, lab-like clean condition just before Meredith was so horribly murdered? If not, why is it suspicious at all that Knox's DNA is found in her own bathroom?

 

[DrTesla]

it seems to me Meridith would have heard Rudy break the window glass and been able to confront him as he was climbing in. if we go with this scenario, he is able to break in, take a dump in the toilet, all without meridith noticing in there, b/c it is clear he left the house immediately after the murder b/c his bllody prints head straight to the door. i'm kind of surprised he didn't go out that high window on the way out b/c he seems to like hassling himself for no logical reason. LOL

 

[DrTesla]

Ok - fair enough. But before assigning me to the supernatural - can you cite the ebdience that says that the footprint in the hall is Amanda's and that it is in blood. Or are you just asserting it?

The point stands. There is nothing in Massei's motivations report which places Amanda Knox in the murder room. Indeed, if she'd been there the forensic trace pointing to her would have matched that which pointed to Guede.

Judge Massei makes NO mention of a clean-up in the murder room, meaning one that removed the forensic trace of two of three attackers... as if that was even possible.

Can you describe the method by which someone removes their own forensic trace whil leaving the full trace of another? That's what I mean - Massei could not go there. He had to surmise Amanda being in the cottage outside of the room, because of "Knox's biological material mixed with Mereidth's blood," which when one considers that Knox lived there - is not surprising.

I ask you - was the cottage in sterile, lab-like clean condition just before Meredith was so horribly murdered? If not, why is it suspicious at all that Knox's DNA is found in her own bathroom?

I think it is much m ore likely that Knox's dna was mixed with Meridith's huge bloodflow after her murder while Knox was cleaning it all in the bathroom, then your belief of an innocent mixture of her dna with meridith's blood ( much smaller sample size then her blood from the murder )prior to that.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the luminol footprint in Amanda's room

Three more problems with the luminol footprints. One, no reference prints were taken from Laura, Filomena, (or from Meredith's body). Therefore, even finding a woman's footprint does not mean much. Two, there is a footprint revealed by luminol in Amanda's room. The short second toe does not match Amanda's second toe, which is much longer. If Amanda did not make it, who did? It is difficult to see how it could have been made after the murder (who else would be barefoot in Amanda's room). If it was made earlier, then it is unlikely to be blood that is causing the reaction with luminol. If that print is not blood, then why must the other ones be made in blood? Three, at least some and probably all of the luminol-positive areas were tested with TMB. The TMB test was negative, and there was no confirmatory test beyond that. Therefore, it is an overinterpretation of the data to assume that the any of the luminol-positive prints were made in blood.

 

[Bill Williams]

saying the climb is doable is a straw man. so what? there's no evidence he did it and it makes no sense he would have targeted that window unless he just like dealing with a greater hassle and putting himself at greater risk of being seen.

Ok - there's progress, We have the climb as doable.

That window is the obvious choice for entry into the upper floors. There's plenty of stealth space below, and the balcony on the other side is fully exposed to the street as it curves around, and illuminated by a street light.

As I learned early on in this, people with no experience doing B&E's overthink these things. Once again, by the time I'm finished typing this, Rudy would be up and in. He had experience.

The evidence that he did it? Well, there is no evidence that Meredith let him in. There is no evidence that Amanda Knox was there that night. There is flaky evidence (the bra-clasp) that Raffaele was there. Taken in total, it looks very likely (although not certain) that this is the way Rudy got in.

But I need to back up.... my list of those 11 items are those things within Massei's report which he found as factual. By them I do not mean to say that Massei didn't find guilt, he obviously did. But it is revealing how he had to deal with evidence.

You yourself thought I'd mixed up Massei with Hellmann. So did I when I firs tread Massei.

Everyone who is interested in this should at least verify what it was Massei said, and the reasonings he used.

It's not what you think. And it will form the beginning point of the new Florence appeals trial.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think it is much m ore likely that Knox's dna was mixed with Meridith's huge bloodflow after her murder while Knox was cleaning it all in the bathroom, then your belief of an innocent mixture of her dna with meridith's blood ( much smaller sample size then her blood from the murder )prior to that.

Why do you believe that? Seriously, I'm curious.

Please note that DNA does not have a time stamp on it. But on what forensic grounds would one say what you said? No other forensic expert (other than the Perugians and the Rome SP) would say what you said.

But still, I'm curious.

 

[anglolawyer]

it seems to me Meridith would have heard Rudy break the window glass and been able to confront him as he was climbing in. if we go with this scenario, he is able to break in, take a dump in the toilet, all without meridith noticing in there, b/c it is clear he left the house immediately after the murder b/c his bllody prints head straight to the door. i'm kind of surprised he didn't go out that high window on the way out b/c he seems to like hassling himself for no logical reason. LOL

He says he got there around 8.30 and we know she got there around 9. So maybe, he got inside before she came home. What do you make of that idea?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

ok, so where is the evidence he did the climb? He did it at least twice so why was there no evidence of it? Why no evidence of him in that room? I find that amazing. i'm sure man can do all sorts of things but in a murder trial the point is to prove your claims. don't see any evidence of this claim and it's just nto logical a man is gong to pick the point with the most effort to break in, all within view from a main road, when other options are available. you have to look at these things from a psychological, human nature, standpoint.

IIRC Rep. 189 or 190 tested positive for blood by TMB. What would Guede have done in Filomena's room that would have left a trace?

 

[Rolfe]

it seems to me Meridith would have heard Rudy break the window glass and been able to confront him as he was climbing in. if we go with this scenario, he is able to break in, take a dump in the toilet, all without meridith noticing in there, b/c it is clear he left the house immediately after the murder b/c his bllody prints head straight to the door. i'm kind of surprised he didn't go out that high window on the way out b/c he seems to like hassling himself for no logical reason. LOL

I'm more or less sitting at the side eating popcorn here, but even I know that the most rational scenario for this crime is that Rudy threw the rock some time around 8.30 or so. Broke window, making a bit of a noise. He lay low until it was clear there was nobody around who was going to come and see what the noise was about, then climbed in.

He picked up a few unconsidered trifles, stuff he could shove in his pockets to climb back down, and went to the toilet. It seems he had form in using toilets in the premises he burgled, and this is not such an uncommon trait in burglars as one might think. While he was in there, Meredith returned, which was about 9 o'clock. Rudy was not expecting that, having imagined that if party girls are out at 8.30 they are out for the night.

You can fill in the rest, but Meredith was dead by 9.30. Seems quite straightforward to me. Poor girl. And not LOL at all, really.

I'm quite surprised that someone who is so opinionated about the case hasn't figured out that much.

Rolfe.

 

[anglolawyer]

I'm more or less sitting at the side eating popcorn here, but even I know that the most rational scenario for this crime is that Rudy threw the rock some time around 8.30 or so. Broke window, making a bit of a noise. He lay low until it was clear there was nobody around who was going to come and see what the noise was about, then climbed in.

He picked up a few unconsidered trifles, stuff he could shove in his pockets to climb back down, and went to the toilet. It seems he had form in using toilets in the premises he burgled, and this is not such an uncommon trait in burglars as one might think. While he was in there, Meredith returned, which was about 9 o'clock. Rudy was not expecting that, having imagined that if party girls are out at 8.30 they are out for the night.

You can fill in the rest, but Meredith was dead by 9.30. Seems quite straightforward to me. Poor girl. And not LOL at all, really.

I'm quite surprised that someone who is so opinionated about the case hasn't figured out that much.

Rolfe.

I'm having another Doc Daneeka moment.

 

[DrTesla]

He says he got there around 8.30 and we know she got there around 9. So maybe, he got inside before she came home. What do you make of that idea?

I know that I wouldn't be taking a no. 2 on the toilet in a house that I broke into, not knowing when anybody who lives there is going to return. doesn't seem logical to me. that points to him being there socially (he came with Knox)

 

[Rolfe]

I'm having another Doc Daneeka moment.

You don't dig support for your position?

Rolfe.