Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

Amazing Dr. Tesla. I have been reading your posts. You have made the argument that Rudy was let in by Amanda, even though Rudy says he was in the john and Meredith let in her killers. You also seem to forget that Mignini theorized that it was a 'sexual rite' in accordance with the traditions of Halloween.

"that the murder was the culmination of an orgy in which Knox, Sollecito and one other person were involved". "that the murder, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Halloween. A sexual and sacrificial rite...In the intention of the organisers, the rite should have occurred 24 hours earlier” – on Halloween itself – “but on account of a dinner at the house of horrors, organised by Meredith and Amanda’s Italian flatmates, it was postponed for one day. The presumed assassins contented themselves with the evening of 1 November to perform their do-it-yourself rite, when for some hours it would again be the night of All Saints.”

he banned me b/c I was effectively destroying Amanda Knox, and I was having fun doing it. I'm an extremely funny man and humor is devastating form of persuasion.

That is strange Dr., I was over there and nobody found you to be humorous or persuasive.

What I did notice as I am now is that you keep repeating things that have been proven to be wrong. Such as there being a cleanup...something neither Massei or Hellmann found to be true. Or that Raffaele's apartment smelled of bleach and that the knife had been cleaned. Even though each statement is false. You commented about two bleach bottles at Raffaele's apartment and said that his maid said she never cleaned with bleach but you omitted the fact that same maid testified that those two bottles of bleach had been there before the murder and they are unopened still.

The good Doctor said Rudy was 5' 4" as opposed to his real height of 179cm or 5'10 and a half.

Time and time again he would slip in details that were wrong and others found themselves correcting every thing he said. And as soon as it was pointed out the good Doctor would just move on and say something else that was not true. People grew tired of him and his antics.

 

[DrTesla]

People's sex lives have nothing to do with this case, especially with no evidence linking Sollecito and Knox to this horrid crime. It's not that one shouldn't talk about someone else's sex life, it's just that it has nothing to do with this case.

You are the only guilter he's banned, and it was for obnoxious postings. Gien some of the posts that have been on the sites in the last five years, that says something. Need to look in the mirror buddy.

Bryan Fischer is apparently under investigation for harassing people regarding the Knox case, and he's the man who banned me. I do not think he has any credibility to play judge and jury on me. He banned me because he didn't like what I was saying and b/c I am effective. It's his website so he can do what he wants but I have no obligation to kiss his butt. He is a loser who works at a little store in a mall somewhere and he's like 55 or something.

 

[DrTesla]

Amazing Dr. Tesla. I have been reading your posts. You have made the argument that Rudy was let in by Amanda, even though Rudy says he was in the john and Meredith let in her killers. You also seem to forget that Mignini theorized that it was a 'sexual rite' in accordance with the traditions of Halloween.

"that the murder was the culmination of an orgy in which Knox, Sollecito and one other person were involved". "that the murder, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Halloween. A sexual and sacrificial rite...In the intention of the organisers, the rite should have occurred 24 hours earlier” – on Halloween itself – “but on account of a dinner at the house of horrors, organised by Meredith and Amanda’s Italian flatmates, it was postponed for one day. The presumed assassins contented themselves with the evening of 1 November to perform their do-it-yourself rite, when for some hours it would again be the night of All Saints.”



That is strange Dr., I was over there and nobody found you to be humorous or persuasive.

What I did notice as I am now is that you keep repeating things that have been proven to be wrong. Such as there being a cleanup...something neither Massei or Hellmann found to be true. Or that Raffaele's apartment smelled of bleach and that the knife had been cleaned. Even though each statement is false. You commented about two bleach bottles at Raffaele's apartment and said that his maid said she never cleaned with bleach but you omitted the fact that same maid testified that those two bottles of bleach had been there before the murder and they are unopened still.

The good Doctor said Rudy was 5' 4" as opposed to his real height of 179cm or 5'10 and a half.

Time and time again he would slip in details that were wrong and others found themselves correcting every thing he said. And as soon as it was pointed out the good Doctor would just move on and say something else that was not true. People grew tired of him and his antics.

Hellman's verdict just got tossed by the Supreme Court over there so it's silly to keep referring to it. Hellman argued that there was no way that two white college kids, who he calls "good fellows", would have anything to do with "the other", the black guy. That sounds like the most racist and dumb judicial decision of all time to me yet you cite this man as though he is some great mind we should marvel at.

I think it is likely the maid was talked to by rich boy's dad could she clearly changed her tune on the bleach. Se was ever threatened or bribed in my view.

 

[yimyammer]

YES - that is pretty good, can you change the foot print into a shoe print - just kidding, that is excellent.

Doh!

 

[yimyammer]

I used to be interested in the JFK assassination...SNIPPED...

I came to the same conclusion but its been so long I can't remember all the reasons, for a while I got caught up in it after watching the movie JFK but it just turned into a huge time waster

This case is a lot easier to figure out, but there's the same plethora of mis/disinformation out there due to a corrupt and incompetent police and prosecution which was compounded by press errors and then the dedicated denizens of PMF/TJMK disseminated that and their own little pet theories to the four corners of the ether. Those who thought Amanda and Raffaele likely innocent (innocentisti) were not the only ones posting on the case in different venues.


Look at it this way, the police arrested Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick after an all-night interrogation session in which the central feature was an exchange of text messages betwwen Patrick and Amanda right before the most likely time of the murder, one of which used a phrase that suggested a future meeting that night due to Amanda's poor Italian (at that time). The police focused on her because they believed the break-in had to be staged, probably because the window broken appears difficult to access, they certainly didn't have the forensics completed at that stage in order to rely on anything but partial information in that regard anyway.

They took that text message and some information that was eventually proven to be untrue or non-incriminating before Judge Matteini on November 8th, two days later. Incidentally they also found a 'witness' to Patrick's bar being closed which is damned curious because it was eventually proven beyond a doubt that it wasn't, but that does give you a idea of how things work in Perugia with witnesses sometimes.

When the forensics were done they found traces of only one man, Rudy Guede, and absolutely nothing for Amanda, Raffaele or Patrick. It just so happens that Rudy Guede was a burglar facing eviction who'd been caught with items stolen from other second-story break ins, had pulled a knife in one instance, and was an athlete with enough promise the richest man in the area had once given him a place to stay as he also owned a (semi-pro) basketball team.

They should have just let the other three go, but the prosecutor who'd made up his theory of a ritualistic masonic killing or sex-game gone wrong out of whole cloth (he had no forensics to rely on when he did it!) refused to reconsider, perhaps because he was receiving international media attention from a tabloid press which was taking his every word as gospel and even helping out by printing bizarre and untrue rumors and distortions. Thus despite (essentially) everything in his case presented before Matteini being untrue or irrelevant, he decided to keep his bizarre theory of a three-person killing and did his best to assemble evidence in support of it. In Italy the prosecutor is the actual head of the investigation, unlike the US and other places where those powers are separate. Some of that 'evidence' stinks to high heaven, and that's not based on speculation either.

However, I wanted to post this bit to show something, this is Massei's representation of the forensic experts testimony, all of them, including the ones the prosecution relied most on:




As you can see, all of the forensic experts found the murder scene compatible with a one attacker scenario. There is nothing at the scene which requires that there be more than one attacker forensically, so Massei has to rely on the speculations and indications the prosecution assembled of why there might have been, being as if he couldn't do that he couldn't bring a case into court, (and many things are possible) and of course barring a clean video of the murder a lot of things can be interpreted as possible indications of this or that. He spends the next few pages on that and if you want I (or someone else) can post that and you can get an idea of just what sort of 'evidence' must be relied on in order to pretend Raffaele and Amanda were there, but that requires not taking into account that were Raffaele and Amanda present at the scene odds are there'd be actual evidence of their presence, much like Rudy Guede left traces of himself all over that room.

Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence but there was a dedicated effort to find anything and all they could come up with was a smidgin of unidentified (substance) DNA on a bra clasp which was passed around like a joint at a Pink Floyd concert and fondled freely as well as put back on the floor (this is all on camera!), It was found to contain Y-haplotypes (which is not the same as a DNA match) of four men, one of whom may be Raffaele Sollecito but which had been sitting on the floor for six weeks and has definitely moved around on that floor from where it was originally captured in the videos the day after the murder. The prosecution lab tech would try to hide the fact those other Y-haplotype traces were found, probably because that screams contamination as the videos suggest was likely.

Nothing attributable to Amanda Knox was ever found in the murder room.

The only thing I've seen argued is that one of the five footprints was compatible with Amanda's which seems like a real stretch considering the other four were clearly the size and type of shoe that matched Rudy, so I dont buy that argument. I've also heard pro-guilt folks make a big deal about Amandas lamp being in the room but I dont see how you can draw any conclusions from that.

You're preaching to the choir for the most part although the noise from all sides, language barrier and a lack of unfettered access to all the evidence in this case causes me to scratch my head when it comes to:

1. DNA on the bra clasp - while it wasn't collected properly, etc., how did Rafs DNA get there (if in fact it did, I realize one sides says none, the other says there is...I get tired-head trying to follow all the back and forth from both sides as well as the terminology associated with DNA analysis, so at this juncture I cannot say whether it was or wasn't on the bra clasp). Even if it was, I personally find the actions of LE questionable enough to cause me to doubt the veracity of this evidence but I'm not real wild about that argument.

2. Meredith's DNA on the knife - I have trouble trusting/accepting either sides argument on this one. Is it starch or is it DNA and if its DNA, even a partial DNA, how does that partial DNA match Meredith? Why did Raf lie and say Meredith was at his house and he cut her accidentally while they were cooking? Or did he even say that?

3. Calling the police-Did they call the police before or after the postal police arrived? I tried to follow lengthy arguments on this one but again I get tired head trying to sort it out from two sides that seem biased and not truly seeking the truth on the matter. I personally think this was the result of the language barrier and miscommunication occurring in the "fog of war" but I realize thats a pretty shaky reason and wish I had accurate evidence to support whatever happened here.

4. Mixed DNA of Amanda and Meredith- Was there mixed DNA or not, where was it & what does it mean? Its been a while since I followed this case closely but I never came away with a conclusion on this issue or a firm grasp of what the prosecution was claiming, so I admit to ignorance on this one. Seems like I remember thinking it could have happened when Amanda walked around the house barefoot after the shower and she could have stepped on glass that caused her DNA to be left on Meredith's blood tracked by Rudy but then I recall Amanda saying she used the bathmat to scoot across the house, leaving me thinking WTF?

In regard to the Forensic people saying they couldn't rule out a single attacker, this is one of those things that frustrates me about this case. I am reading a snippet you quoted from Massei and can only assume he is referencing something more complete when making these comments which makes me want to know the entire context of what they said. Because when they say a sole attacker can't be ruled out, I cant help but wonder if what was said before that was they believe the murder happened because of multiple attackers, but they cant rule out a sole attacker.

I'm not arguing with you here or saying you're wrong as I am admittedly foggy on the details of this case so you may be able to point out the entire statement easily and show me that it was a resounding consensus by the forensics people, I am just having a hard time accepting they made no comments about multiple attackers.

 

[anglolawyer]

Snip
Just imagine as hard as you can that Rudi had a date with Meredith and that he feared that she had told her friends and that things went haywire and after the murder he worried that he would be the clear suspect so he thought "I'll make it look like someone broke in" and he used his MO to stage.

I tried this and I confusedly saw him leave town right away, not go dancing that night and the next and only then run away.

 

[yimyammer]

Heh, once upon a time, shortly before it became popular and was on TV all the time, I spent a while out in Nevada making my living playing (mostly) Texas Hold 'em. It was wonderful fun, I found a nice little town on the border where I could play poker all day and earn my 'comps' as well as some money playing poker, and all the play allowed me maximum entries for the weekly tournament. That allowed me to get to the 'final table' almost every week where once all the tourists were eliminated the rest of us regulars would split it up so we'd all get something (usually $200-400) that amounted to a regular income. It was fun while it lasted, kind of an extended vacation, living in nice hotels and eating steak and lobster every night for months. Then I got drunk at the craps table one night...

Were you in Vegas? When were you doing this? I made a run at being a pro before poker got big, way back in 96-97 but Vegas kicked my arse and I came back with my tail between my legs

That story has a familiar ring!



I agree, and have never pushed that 'report' button at all, here or anywhere else, in the end the discussion is served best if everyone gets to have a say. I will admit I have lost patience with some, and Sherlock's admonition no doubt applies to me, as I have been amongst the ones who've responded scornfully amongst a dozen or so similar replies which can indeed be intimidating for someone pushing a minority position.



Something similar happened here, though there were a number of long-standing regulars, such as Dan-O, who were not inclined to think them definitely guilty and made that case. Others found PMF and sold out body and soul:

'One site to rule them all, one site to find them,
One site to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them!'

p)

That worked better before their feud and they were all posting at the site with the default pitch-black background.



Heh I feel the same way. In fact since some of them had been following and posting on the case since ~2007-2008 they were a gold-mine of arcane knowledge about the case, the Italian System and the culture and habits of modern Italy which was quite helpful. However everything had to be twisted so it made Amanda and Raffaele sound guilty and they were sometimes like a little two-year-old trying to force a piece into the wrong place in a puzzle, all one had to do is take the piece, untwist it, and they'd find it fit nicely into another place and often indicated something about the nature of the prosecution. After a while though what had once been like mining for gold became grabbing them by the ankles and shaking them down for loose change so I lost interest.



I agree with the former and your experience on latter is not unique.



Yes, a valid observation, especially the last. In particular the Massei and Matteini Reports suggest innocence when one takes into account the nature of the first and what the latter reveals about the initial state of the 'investigation.'

This case and the polarized opinions would make a fascinating case study on human nature. It reminds me of how I would imagine the people acted during the Salem witch trials.

Nothing worse than righteous indignation run amuck.

The interesting thing in this case is both sides can lay claim to it justifiably.

If you think she is guilty, you are justifiably outraged by the prospect of her getting away with it

If you think she is innocent, then you are justifiably outraged that an innocent person was thrown in jail and continues to be pursued for something she didn't do.

quite the dilemma

Did you ever find the picture of Raffaele's lawyer climbing up those rungs and easily getting his hands on the sill with his head poking above it? That window does look difficult to access at first glance, but with those rungs as you note it becomes relatively easy to for an athletic person to get into it, especially one with experience breaking into second-story windows...

Yes, I did see this as well as Filomenas testimony where she said she couldn't close the exterior shutters fully which makes it more plausible in my mind this was an actual break-in.

 

[DrTesla]

You can't see how anybody can draw conclusions on Amanda Knox's lamp being found on the floor of the victim's locked bedroom? How about Knox used it in her cleanup effort and then she forgot that she left it in there?

 

[DrTesla]

Were you in Vegas? When were you doing this? I made a run at being a pro before poker got big, way back in 96-97 but Vegas kicked my arse and I came back with my tail between my legs



This case and the polarized opinions would make a fascinating case study on human nature. It reminds me of how I would imagine the people acted during the Salem witch trials.

Nothing worse than righteous indignation run amuck.

The interesting thing in this case is both sides can lay claim to it justifiably.

If you think she is guilty, you are justifiably outraged by the prospect of her getting away with it

If you think she is innocent, then you are justifiably outraged that an innocent person was thrown in jail and continues to be pursued for something she didn't do.

quite the dilemma



Yes, I did see this as well as Filomenas testimony where she said she couldn't close the exterior shutters fully which makes it more plausible in my mind this was an actual break-in.

Nobody thinks she is innocent outside of the States where her PR machine basically has controlled the message in our media. She's used the fact this happened in another country to play on our fear of the unknown but she received a fair trial in Italy and she was found guilty by all 8 jurors.

 

[DrTesla]

Knox has some bad luck if Guede borrowed her lamp and left it in the victim's room. Or maybe Guede was trying to frame Knox? He's so dumb he accesses the cottage from the highest window that is also visible from the road, and leaves his feces in the toilet, but somehow he is clever enough to think to put Knox's lamp on the floor in the victim's room after murdering her.

 

[DrTesla]

I forgot about this, but Knox's lamp was the only source of light in her bedroom. So when she comes home to take a shower, as she claimed, she didn't notice her lamp was missing from her room? Hmmmmmmmmm.

 

[anglolawyer]

You can't see how anybody can draw conclusions on Amanda Knox's lamp being found on the floor of the victim's locked bedroom? How about Knox used it in her cleanup effort and then she forgot that she left it in there?

Good point. I had forgotten the lamp. And it's very suspicious that when the cops took her back on the 3rd or 4th they sent her to her room on her own to see if anything was missing and she came back and said no.

 

[DrTesla]

Good point. I had forgotten the lamp. And it's very suspicious that when the cops took her back on the 3rd or 4th they sent her to her room on her own to see if anything was missing and she came back and said no.

yup...what is the probability that you are one of the people accused of murdering your roommate AND you don't have an alibi AND your lamp is found on the floor of the victim's bedroom but you didn't put it there. If you look at this case in terms of probability that all these kind of things could occur, like her first time event call to her mother in the middle of the night on the same night of the murder, it's hard to believe she's innocent.

 

[DrTesla]

I think that I know why Knox was hitting her head at the police station...she remembered later that she had forgot to get her lamp from the bedroom and she knew it was incriminating. it would suck to have done a fairly decent cleanup job only to leave something that ties you to a cleanup effort.

 

[anglolawyer]

yup...what is the probability that you are one of the people accused of murdering your roommate AND you don't have an alibi AND your lamp is found on the floor of the victim's bedroom but you didn't put it there. If you look at this case in terms of probability that all these kind of things could occur, like her first time event call to her mother in the middle of the night on the same night of the murder, it's hard to believe she's innocent.

There is a recent book out there you can use to work this out to the nearest picogram.

 

[anglolawyer]

I think that I know why Knox was hitting her head at the police station...she remembered later that she had forgot to get her lamp from the bedroom and she knew it was incriminating. it would suck to have done a fairly decent cleanup job only to leave something that ties you to a cleanup effort.

Like in Kind Hearts and Coronets when Mazzini comes out of jail and remembers he left his memoirs behind in the cell. I see what you mean.

 

[yimyammer]

You can't see how anybody can draw conclusions on Amanda Knox's lamp being found on the floor of the victim's locked bedroom? How about Knox used it in her cleanup effort and then she forgot that she left it in there?

that's certainly possible but then I'd expect to see her foot prints or some evidence of her being in that room, which to my knowledge I've yet to see

 

[yimyammer]

Nobody thinks she is innocent outside of the States where her PR machine basically has controlled the message in our media. She's used the fact this happened in another country to play on our fear of the unknown but she received a fair trial in Italy and she was found guilty by all 8 jurors.

Nobody? I'm not buying that.

 

[DrTesla]

that's certainly possible but then I'd expect to see her foot prints or some evidence of her being in that room, which to my knowledge I've yet to see

you don't strike me as being open to the evidence against Knox at all. you dismiss the lamp as almost trivial. the lamp IS evidence of her being in the room. your logic is so circular but you seem unaware of this.

 

[yimyammer]

Knox has some bad luck if Guede borrowed her lamp and left it in the victim's room. Or maybe Guede was trying to frame Knox? He's so dumb he accesses the cottage from the highest window that is also visible from the road, and leaves his feces in the toilet, but somehow he is clever enough to think to put Knox's lamp on the floor in the victim's room after murdering her.

Or perhaps Meredith borrowed it to give her room more light, she was home alone and it wouldn't be unusual for her to be afraid being by herself, so perhaps she brought the extra light in the room to ease her fears.

My point is we can't prove definitively why its there or who put it there.

Once again, all sides are left to speculate