Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[yimyammer]

The heal would be between C and D, and it would be a left shoe print instead of a right.

How's this:

 

[Kaosium]

Actually that's Bill W that says that and I believe in this case it was Steve Moore that introduced it though I'm not sure and it doesn't really matter.

That's a basic rule of logic, Grinder, and Steve Moore actually phrased it the other way to make an ironic point about the nature of a violent murder in close quarters with today's forensic capabilities. He said 'absence of evidence is evidence of absence' under those conditions, as the likelihood of Amanda or Raffaele contributing to that murder and leaving nothing but the dubious bra-clasp is remote.

It had rained just a day or two before and the ground under the window was not paved or graveled. It was not a manicured grass but rather spotty vegetation.

But you again do not answer what would evidence of a staging be?

You and others say there was no evidence of a staging but refuse to say what that evidence could be. A well staged break-in would look exactly like a real break-in so it is a specious to demand such evidence.

Well, if there was actually evidence of the window being broken from the inside that might suggest something staged. However you make a good point in that a well-staged break-in would be difficult to differentiate from a real one. In this case with the prosecution assuming at the outset it was staged and then trying to gather evidence to prove that and having shown a propensity throughout the case to hide or ignore data and facts that don't support their case it doesn't surprise me that solid proof of it being real isn't readily available, and it works that way as well: it's impossible to prove the break-in was real sans video, thus all one can do is look to see how well the prosecution supported their contention, which was pretty dismally.

I actually do think that F may have had a messy room and left the shutters open but she told the police that her room had been tossed and that she closed the shutters. I don't think the police thinking the B-I was staged was ridiculous.

Actually Filomena at first said she wasn't sure she closed the shutters, then she had another interview with Mignini and she was more sure. The bunnies would like us to only take the final statement into account, I believe that Mignini has a way of asking leading questions to get the statements that he wants. Curious that's one of the (relatively) few witness sessions from a significant witness that wasn't recorded. She also answered that she was a nice tidy person, but that doesn't mean she didn't leave those clothes there, or if she didn't that they didn't get glass kicked on them or stuck to them if someone did ruffle through them. There was glass underneath them as well which Rose Montague has posted pictures of in the past.

There you go again. Just imagine as hard as you can that Rudi had a date with Meredith and that he feared that she had told her friends and that things went haywire and after the murder he worried that he would be the clear suspect so he thought "I'll make it look like someone broke in" and he used his MO to stage.

My point is staging doesn't have to point the finger at the kids. I know that he left copious forensics behind so it wouldn't have worked.

Rudy could have staged the burglary, I just doubt it and find the evidence the prosecution mustered in support of the staging rather dubious.

 

[acbytesla]

The heal would be between C and D, and it would be a left shoe print instead of a right.

Yep, Sherlock is right, it is a left shoe print not a right. Although I would say the heal is pointing toward C.

 

[DrTesla]

I just came across this interesting observation: "The body was found covered by a duvet, but blood from the body does not appear to have transferred to any great extent to the fabric of the duvet. This suggests that the blood had substantially dried before the body was covered. Our burglar must have hung around quite a while."

who else could know it was ok to stick around at the apartment other than Knox, who knew when her roommates would be returning?

 

[DrTesla]

we also know Guede's bloody footprints headed straight for the door, so we know it wasn't he who waited around to cover the body with the duvet.

hmmmmm, wonder who this points to? Not Knox of course. Just can't be Knox.

 

[yimyammer]

I scoff at people on here who claim Rudy Guede scaled up the wall of the house like Spiderman to access the high window. it makes no sense to break into the house from that window when there are lower access points that are also not in view of the main road. there was no evidence of footprints in the wet grass outside of the house or scuff marks on the wall of the house to indicate a break in. also, one of the roommates closed the interior shutters of the window before she left, and that would have made it difficult for gueede to enter the house that way.
Meridith surely would have heard the window being smashed by a rock and prevented guide from entering through the window. he also left his feces in the toilet...since when does a burglar take time to take a crap. the crap in the toilet seems to indicate that he was at the house socially for awhile before the victim was murdered.
Guede is a small man, 160 lbs or so and there is no way he pinned down the victim with little resistance from her as she had few defensive wounds on her body. that girl would have fought like hell if she thought she was going to be raped and or killed. you have to believe he also stabbed her with two different knives in the neck while also holding her down where she couldn't fight back at the same time. that's one powerful man there.

you certainly have the right to that view

here are some photos of the flat & surrounding area that might be useful for discussion:

 

[DrTesla]

you certainly have the right to that view

you think some black guy is going to be so stupid as to climb up the side of the house to gain entry though a high window? he has no idea of who is in the house or when the occupants are coming back, unless Knox told him this, and it would be more probable she just let him in if that is the case.

if he wanted to rape meridith, it's much more probable that he would have waited for her to leave and followed her and then attacked her in an isolated area.

why would he care about the other roommates clothes? Why ransack her clothes? He didn't even take anything.

I don't think it's likely he breaks into a cottage given the fact they knew him, and he was buddies with the drug fiends who lived downstairs. Just taking a lot of risk of being identified to break into a cottage of some college girls who didn't have a lot of money or possessions.

he's not this dumb. to believe he's the lone killer, you must believe he is the world's dumbest man, as well as possessing Superman type of strength to hold one girl down with no resistance, all while stabbing with two different kinves.

 

[Draca]

I just came across this interesting observation: "The body was found covered by a duvet, but blood from the body does not appear to have transferred to any great extent to the fabric of the duvet. This suggests that the blood had substantially dried before the body was covered. Our burglar must have hung around quite a while."

who else could know it was ok to stick around at the apartment other than Knox, who knew when her roommates would be returning?

The duvet was bloody:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/duvet.html

 

[DrTesla]

The duvet was bloody:

lol, please do not quote that mall worker's website to me. looks like he may be in some legal trouble. he banned me today for posting my belief that Knox is guilty. I think he suffers from the white knight syndrome, has a thing for Foxy Knoxy.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

How's this:

[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img853/194/footv.jpg[/qimg]

You put the heal between b and c, not c and d..............

 

[DrTesla]

the guy who made the observation about the duvet also makes some of my other points: "Our hypothetical burglar gained entry to the flat through a second-level bedroom window. It was not barricaded or bolted, but the outside shutters were firmly closed – the wood was swollen, so they were wedged in place. They might have been openable from the outside, if with a little difficulty. But this, it has been argued, would have required the burglar to make the ascent twice: once to open the shutters, then back down to the ground to hurl a rock at the window, then finally back up. The first climb would have been speculative – had the shutters been latched on the inside, that would have been the end of the attempt.

The window would also be a strange choice for a burglar on account of its position. It is in full view of the road that passes by the building and, as you can see from the photo, it doesn’t offer an easy climb. To the rear of the building is a balcony, which certainly looks more accessible and is relatively secluded. What can have been in our burglar’s head?

What’s more, no transfer material was found. No dirt or bits of leaves on the wall, no footprints on the bedroom carpet, no nothing. The burglar managed, so it seems, to perform the break-in without leaving a trace of himself.

The trial court was convinced that the window could not be considered a realistic target for a burglar. But, all the same, might the appeal court not see some room for doubt? It looks to all the world like an unlikely point of entry. But, surely, you can’t send two people to prison if there is even a slim chance that the break-in might not have been staged.


Man climbing up wall
Does this photo help the defence case or the prosecution case?
What the textbooks recommend is to perform a reconstruction experiment in order to give a definitive answer to the question. In other words, you get someone (maybe these guys) to attempt the climb. That’s something that investigators never did. Perhaps they felt that the impossibility of the exercise was obvious, or perhaps they didn’t want to risk a success. The defence, though, do seem to have conducted some sort of experiment, as shown by the photo to the right. But why were the results of this never discussed in court? Does the photo show someone succeeding in accessing the window, or failing?"

 

[GWCarver]

lol, please do not quote that mall worker's website to me. looks like he may be in some legal trouble. he banned me today for posting my belief that Knox is guilty. I think he suffers from the white knight syndrome, has a thing for Foxy Knoxy.

You got banned by the guy who wrote a book that gave us the first comprehensive look at the evidence in the Kercher case. You should feel bad about that. You could order it from Amazon and catch up, you know....

 

[DrTesla]

You got banned by the guy who wrote a book that gave us the first comprehensive look at the evidence in the Kercher case. You should feel bad about that. You could order it from Amazon and catch up, you know....

I'm a mechanical engineer, he works at some department store at the mall. I'm going to go with what I think over what that idiot thinks. He's just trying to get some attention for himself and the fact he has meet up with the Knox family is a little weird and instrusive to me. Dude needs to get a life, I think. It's one thing to be interested in this case, another to force yourself into the whole thing.

he's one of these fools who keeps saying the prosecuter Mignini argued it was about a satantic rite but Mignini never argued that. he said it was about tensions b/t the girls over Knox's lifestyle, and maybe an argument over money.

 

[Bill Williams]

you think some black guy is going to be so stupid as to climb up the side of the house to gain entry though a high window? he has no idea of who is in the house or when the occupants are coming back, unless Knox told him this, and it would be more probable she just let him in if that is the case.

"Some black guy"!? The rock serves a double purpose, it gains entrance as well as allows Rudy to be in the parking area below Filomena's room in total darkness and invisible from the street. All he needs do is wait a few seconds to see if a light goes on, or a voice yells out at the noise. The "high window, as yimyammer shows is not so high - by standing on the grate one is already at shoulder height. Even Massei concedes that the climb is doable - Massei just doubts someone would go up and down three times before going in. That's the sum total of Massei's reasoning.

What's with the "some black guy"?

if he wanted to rape meridith, it's much more probable that he would have waited for her to leave and followed her and then attacked her in an isolated area.

Why? Both scenarios sound equally probable. And how do you explain Guede's biological material inside Kercker?

why would he care about the other roommates clothes? Why ransack her clothes? He didn't even take anything.

You'll need to ask Rudy that one. I can only guess that he was looking for money and not things to fence. But until Rudy says something about this, we'll never know.

I don't think it's likely he breaks into a cottage given the fact they knew him, and he was buddies with the drug fiends who lived downstairs. Just taking a lot of risk of being identified to break into a cottage of some college girls who didn't have a lot of money or possessions.

Perhaps this is why he killed Meredith - he did not want to be id'ed. He thought that everyone was away for the holiday - Knox at Sollecitos and Meredith at her friends. He broke in at 8:30 or so thinking they would not return until late. That the people in the cottage are a known quantity to him makes it more likely he'd break in after having the opportunity to case the place.

he's not this dumb. to believe he's the lone killer, you must believe he is the world's dumbest man, as well as possessing Superman type of strength to hold one girl down with no resistance, all while stabbing with two different kinves.

To believe that Knox is the killer you need to believe she can do a DNA-clean up of only two of the three forensic profiles in the murder room. Even Massei fumbles this point, at times Massei has Knox with super human reasoning powers of cleaning, but also as a sloppy cleaner. Guede, on the other hand, would not have needed superhuman strength to overpower Meredith. If you make the opposite claim, please at least back it up with some evidence rather than just assert it.

 

[DrTesla]

"Some black guy"!? The rock serves a double purpose, it gains entrance as well as allows Rudy to be in the parking area below Filomena's room in total darkness and invisible from the street. All he needs do is wait a few seconds to see if a light goes on, or a voice yells out at the noise. The "high window, as yimyammer shows is not so high - by standing on the grate one is already at shoulder height. Even Massei concedes that the climb is doable - Massei just doubts someone would go up and down three times before going in. That's the sum total of Massei's reasoning.

What's with the "some black guy"?


Why? Both scenarios sound equally probable. And how do you explain Guede's biological material inside Kercker?



You'll need to ask Rudy that one. I can only guess that he was looking for money and not things to fence. But until Rudy says something about this, we'll never know.

I don't think it's likely he breaks into a cottage given the fact they knew him, and he was buddies with the drug fiends who lived downstairs. Just taking a lot of risk of being identified to break into a cottage of some college girls who didn't have a lot of money or possessions.

Perhaps this is why he killed Meredith - he did not want to be id'ed. He thought that everyone was away for the holiday - Knox at Sollecitos and Meredith at her friends. He broke in at 8:30 or so thinking they would not return until late. That the people in the cottage are a known quantity to him makes it more likely he'd break in after having the opportunity to case the place.



To believe that Knox is the killer you need to believe she can do a DNA-clean up of only two of the three forensic profiles in the murder room. Even Massei fumbles this point, at times Massei has Knox with super human reasoning powers of cleaning, but also as a sloppy cleaner. Guede, on the other hand, would not have needed superhuman strength to overpower Meredith. If you make the opposite claim, please at least back it up with some evidence rather than just assert it.

you are real comfortable with the black guy being the only one involved. it just doesn't ring true, brother. it is much more probable he was let in in the house by Knox and hung out socially there for a bit before the murder took place. there is no evidence he broke into the house and a burglar is always going to pick the easiest access point that is less visible over one higher up and more visible. nobody is as dumb as you must paint Rudy to believe he's the lone killer.

Knox had two choices. try to remove the body from the house and wipe the whole house down, but they decided that was too high risk b/c if they are seen with the body, it's game over. or try to remove their traces and leave Rudy's traces, and that's what they tried to do, but they left her blood mixed with the victim's in the bathroom and fiol's room, raffie's dna on the bra clasp, and raff's bloody footprint on the bathmat. it's probable their cleanup effort was interrupted by the unexpected arrival of the postal police regarding the found cell phones. (those cell phones were found 5 minutes or so from Raf's apartment).

 

[DrTesla]

the guy on the defense tried to do the climb, and he is really tall, and it didn't look that doable for him in the photo. given guide is much shorter, just don't see it, especially given the fact he was going to have to do it at least twice to open the shutters the first time.

 

[DrTesla]

if I was going to break into a house, my goal would be to get into the house quickly possible and feel good that nobody will see me doing it. surely rudy is at least this logical if he is some kind of professional burglar as friends of Amanda argue. LOL

 

[DrTesla]

does this website have an official position on the Knox trial? I'm finding most of the Knox sites are hosted by partisans in favor of guilt or innocence and that's not good for an independent person like me.

 

[Draca]

lol, please do not quote that mall worker's website to me. looks like he may be in some legal trouble. he banned me today for posting my belief that Knox is guilty. I think he suffers from the white knight syndrome, has a thing for Foxy Knoxy.

They are crime scene photos DrTesla. The site they are posted on doesn't change the photos. Do you see the blood?

 

[Kaosium]

lol, please do not quote that mall worker's website to me. looks like he may be in some legal trouble. he banned me today for posting my belief that Knox is guilty. I think he suffers from the white knight syndrome, has a thing for Foxy Knoxy.

What has that to do with the pictures of the bloody duvet, falsifying your contention?

At any rate if you managed to get banned at IIP you must have really worked at it! He does not ban people often. I've a few hundred posts there and exchanged some with Machiavelli recently, he's still posting. I didn't see it myself but someone was saying Machiavelli had speculated that Amanda was a whore and Rudy her pimp, apparently that didn't get him banned and I'm trying to think of what you might have said that would be worse!

Or you might just be joshing us a little...