Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Exactly, it's not a site for discussion of this murder, it's a site for those who think Amanda is guilty and want justice done in the name of Meredith Kercher, what is wrong with that? Are you saying this site is better because you believe you can discuss this murder here, well guess what, you probably have no idea, but try to discuss the murder here without glorifying Amanda Knox and you will have 20 posters down your back, most of which are rude and obnoxious. They can't ban you here like PMF so they just make posting here almost meaningless.
The reason 'Guilters' do not post here has nothing to do with you guys always proving yourselves right, quite the opposite, there is just no talking sense to most of you. Honestly, before the 1st appeal, I actually had a piece of paper I would write down the names of posters here I would not reply to because they were rude and obnoxious, I thought this was over after Amanda was set free and returned home, I got rid of that paper and stopped posting. I may have to make another.

Sherlock as you know I agree with your assessment of treatment here of people that do not firmly believe that Rudi killed Meredith after entering through the window in Filomena's room.

I wouldn't mind them doing what you suggest in the highlighted bit, but they don't. They have spent 6 years attacking everything and everyone associated with Amanda and to a lesser extent Raffaele. They have gone after people that have had the nerve to stand up for the kids including harassing their employers. In one early case they went after some woman that had the same name as a poster or coworker of Chris M, but they got the wrong person.

I used to post on Frank's asking them what they were doing for Meredith as they alleged was their purpose. They never have done anything unless you count SA putting plastic flowers on the gate after meeting Curatolo and determining that he was an honest clear thinking man.

Also, they define justice for Meredith being the conviction of A and R and they have from the beginning.

 

[anglolawyer]

Sherlock as you know I agree with your assessment of treatment here of people that do not firmly believe that Rudi killed Meredith after entering through the window in Filomena's room.

I do not.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Where does it say that? At dot org we read nothing in the forum rules about Amanda's and Raffaele's (you forgot about him). Here is rule 15:



That's all well and good but I can't see where it says that guilt is a fundamental axiom. So, what I am saying is: it purports to be something it is not. The rules as a whole suggest the purpose of the forum is 'discussion'. What else could it be? But discussion of what? At dot net, one sees the same thing. The place purports to be a forum for discussion of the case and I cannot find where it says only those who subscribe to a particular view are welcome. You can discuss the case from both sides here or at Injustice Anywhere. Sure there is a pro-innocence balance of opinion in both places but so what? I do not agree that pro-guilt folks get abuse here. They get disagreement and they tend to deal with either by leaving or by avoiding the difficult parts of the discussion.

And suppose for a second you are right and the PGP sites are in fact officially closed to any other POV? Isn't that cultlike? From the urban dictionary:



Now, what could possibly be less appropriate than a murder case to form a cult around? Being open-minded and willing to be proved wrong should be pre-conditions of entry into this discussion. There are two reasons why PGPs don't like posting here: one is they are invariably shown to be wrong and the second is they aren't allowed to fall back on vitriolic and personal abuse when that happens.

You have got to be kidding me - if either site is to be classified as 'cult' it is this one - people do not leave here because they are proved wrong, just the opposite, they finally get tired of the abuse they get from so many different posters - your side never loses a debate because things you can not explain you just make up unbelievable responses to and toss them away. I would love to find a honest site where this case could be discussed like PMF has for Guilty views, and you guys have here for Innocent views, I'm looking for one that's in between, with no luck.

 

[Skind]

I certainly don't agree with the assessment either.

One of the reasons I came over here from there was precisely because of constant, repeated and severe use of language towards, not just the two accused, but anyone associated with their support.

 

[Dan O.]

Grinder, liberally doesn't mean the rules can be ignored. It is saying that the laws of the two states don't need to be the same. Just that the act for which extradition is sought must be punishable under the law in each state. The comment you quoted is in refference to the previous wording of such treaties where the specific laws in common between the two parties to the treaty for which extradition was to be allowed were enumerated.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Sherlock as you know I agree with your assessment of treatment here of people that do not firmly believe that Rudi killed Meredith after entering through the window in Filomena's room.

I wouldn't mind them doing what you suggest in the highlighted bit, but they don't. They have spent 6 years attacking everything and everyone associated with Amanda and to a lesser extent Raffaele. They have gone after people that have had the nerve to stand up for the kids including harassing their employers. In one early case they went after some woman that had the same name as a poster or coworker of Chris M, but they got the wrong person.

I used to post on Frank's asking them what they were doing for Meredith as they alleged was their purpose. They never have done anything unless you count SA putting plastic flowers on the gate after meeting Curatolo and determining that he was an honest clear thinking man.

Also, they define justice for Meredith being the conviction of A and R and they have from the beginning.

Who translated all those documents, who here put flowers on Meredith's gate, and who here doesn't harass those with the different views. Trust me, I've read both site for many years now, this is the hateful one.

 

[Skind]

You have got to be kidding me - if either site is to be classified as 'cult' it is this one - people do not leave here because they are proved wrong, just the opposite, they finally get tired of the abuse they get from so many different posters - your side never loses a debate because things you can not explain you just make up unbelievable responses to and toss them away. I would love to find a honest site where this case could be discussed like PMF has for Guilty views, and you guys have here for Innocent views, I'm looking for one that's in between, with no luck.

Nope, it appears to be a pretty accurate summation.

People do leave here because they get proved wrong. They get proved wrong and then resort to insulting comparisons, accusations of mistreatment and general false-victimhood, they then usually storm off. People are figuratively tearing their hair out trying to deal with them, and certainly give them a lot less than pro-innocence people get over at PMF/TJMK and a lot less than the average pro-guilter gives out over at IIA/IIP.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Susan Milligan's take

I do not.

I agree with you. I think that the majority of people who post here are civil, and the rules of this forum circumscribe over-the-top behavior in any case. I can't say that my experience posting here in 2009-2010 as one of the few pro-innocence posters was very positive.

US News and World Report has a blog entry on Mr. Cuomo's interview. "The irony here is overwhelming. Knox is accused of being a murderer motivated by sexual "deviancy" (never mind who decides what is "deviant"). And yet it is Cuomo who seems to have created some adolescent fantasy about the slutty girl and her uptight, English friend. Is this journalism or the working script for a bad porn movie?"

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Nope, it appears to be a pretty accurate summation.

People do leave here because they get proved wrong. They get proved wrong and then resort to insulting comparisons, accusations of mistreatment and general false-victimhood, they then usually storm off. People are figuratively tearing their hair out trying to deal with them, and certainly give them a lot less than pro-innocence people get over at PMF/TJMK and a lot less than the average pro-guilter gives out over at IIA/IIP.

Well, you keep believing that then. You know you are right, I know you are wrong, we'll have to leave it at that.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

all of the translators should be thanked

Who translated all those documents, who here put flowers on Meredith's gate, and who here doesn't harass those with the different views. Trust me, I've read both site for many years now, this is the hateful one.

Komponisto and Katy-did (both members here) helped to translate the Conti-Vecchiotti report and the Hellmann-Zanetti report. I also am grateful to the translators of the Massei report.

 

[Grinder]

You have got to be kidding me - if either site is to be classified as 'cult' it is this one - people do not leave here because they are proved wrong, just the opposite, they finally get tired of the abuse they get from so many different posters - your side never loses a debate because things you can not explain you just make up unbelievable responses to and toss them away. I would love to find a honest site where this case could be discussed like PMF has for Guilty views, and you guys have here for Innocent views, I'm looking for one that's in between, with no luck.

Now this I don't agree with. The PMF/TJMK don't allow discussion, period.

I have tried to do my part of toning it down here. I don't use the terms haters or guilters because I think it damages the conversation. Over there they freely call anyone not in lock step with their thinking Groupies ™ and feature photo-shopped pictures designed to demean people. They have posted hundreds or thousands of comments about the appearances of Edda, Candace, Preston et al.

 

[Grinder]

I certainly don't agree with the assessment either.

One of the reasons I came over here from there was precisely because of constant, repeated and severe use of language towards, not just the two accused, but anyone associated with their support.

Weren't you banned over there?

Tennis anyone?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Now this I don't agree with. The PMF/TJMK don't allow discussion, period.

I have tried to do my part of toning it down here. I don't use the terms haters or guilters because I think it damages the conversation. Over there they freely call anyone not in lock step with their thinking Groupies ™ and feature photo-shopped pictures designed to demean people. They have posted hundreds or thousands of comments about the appearances of Edda, Candace, Preston et al.

Once again, PMF is a site to discuss aspects of the case from an 'Amanda' is guilty perspective, anyone not of that flavour is banned, thus making it a friendly site where almost everyone gets along fine. The same goes here, as long as your from a 'Amanda is innocent' perspective, the only difference here is you can't ban someone because of their views so you go about it the only way you can, same result.
I am not saying all posters here do this, but there are a great many and the ones who don't do it, don't ot can't do anything about it.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder, liberally doesn't mean the rules can be ignored. It is saying that the laws of the two states don't need to be the same. Just that the act for which extradition is sought must be punishable under the law in each state. The comment you quoted is in refference to the previous wording of such treaties where the specific laws in common between the two parties to the treaty for which extradition was to be allowed were enumerated.

Since I don't believe that Italy would under any circumstance try to extradite Amanda for the remainder of a calumnia sentence if the court of the second instance were to increase her sentence for that crime while finding her not guilty of the charges, I think the conversation is moot.

I don't believe that clause I highlighted was meaningless and believe that crimes need not be exactly the same in the code of the two countries for extradition.

 

[Grinder]

Once again, PMF is a site to discuss aspects of the case from an 'Amanda' is guilty perspective, anyone not of that flavour is banned, thus making it a friendly site where almost everyone gets along fine. The same goes here, as long as your from a 'Amanda is innocent' perspective, the only difference here is you can't ban someone because of their views so you go about it the only way you can, same result.
I am not saying all posters here do this, but there are a great many and the ones who don't do it, don't ot can't do anything about it.

Well Sherlock - Thanks for stopping by

It isn't a friendly site. Any time someone strays from the company line PQ or TM steps and admonishes them. The tone they use has made many a PGP to leave in a huff.

 

[Bill Williams]

Once again, PMF is a site to discuss aspects of the case from an 'Amanda' is guilty perspective, anyone not of that flavour is banned, thus making it a friendly site where almost everyone gets along fine. The same goes here, as long as your from a 'Amanda is innocent' perspective, the only difference here is you can't ban someone because of their views so you go about it the only way you can, same result.
I am not saying all posters here do this, but there are a great many and the ones who don't do it, don't ot can't do anything about it.

Those are incredible statements, SH. PMF and TJMK are sites that exist to trash AK and RS and everyone who supports them. They are not sites that honour Meredith Kercher. Where you really go off the rails is that JREF and IIP welcome free flowing dialogue, and honest opinion is never banned.

And, you initally said that the sites had been set up to remember Meredith and honour her. You have just confirmed that the only way to honour Meredith is to smear the people on the other side of the fence.

Sorry, that's the way I see it. I was banned because I said that the break-in Rudy did was very doable. Just that statement. Nobody came back with, "well what about the lack of Rudy's forensics in Filomena's room." I was banned, and then the folks there went on a shaming spree saying that I did not return because I was a troll and couldn't handle the truth. It was like being on the playground in grade 6 again.

Dr. Tesla, Dexter, Super 8, Michael (from .NET) and Machiavelli all post freely on IIP. Thoughtful/Leila is running her own thread on IIP on her book, "Math on Trial". There's nothing stopping anyone from doing the same.

Apologies, SH, your post is part of parcel of the evidence that the PMF sites and TJMK are cultish.

Anyone who wants their belief in guilt confirmed (confirmation bias) should head over to those three sites. Anyone else who wants their belief challenged in the marketplace of ideas should head to IIP. That includes anyone who may have a confirmation bias about innocence. No one has ever been bullied off of IIP. I, for one, was bullied off of one of the hate sites.

 

[anglolawyer]

Once again, PMF is a site to discuss aspects of the case from an 'Amanda' is guilty perspective, anyone not of that flavour is banned, thus making it a friendly site where almost everyone gets along fine. The same goes here, as long as your from a 'Amanda is innocent' perspective, the only difference here is you can't ban someone because of their views so you go about it the only way you can, same result.
I am not saying all posters here do this, but there are a great many and the ones who don't do it, don't ot can't do anything about it.

Well, I have been posting about a year here and so far as that period of time goes, I have no idea what the heck you're talking about. If you have any examples of this abuse please reference them. If it's as prevalent as you say this should not be difficult.

Also, can we be clear about what you mean. Strong disagreement is not abuse, nor is severe criticism of another's opinions.

 

[Skind]

Weren't you banned over there?

Tennis anyone?

Not to my knowledge, unless I was banned due to inactivity during a sweep.

 

[anglolawyer]

Not to my knowledge, unless I was banned due to inactivity during a sweep.

I am not banned at dot org but my posts are subject to a peculiar form of moderation in which they never appear . I was banned from dot net for being 'boring' (about the lamp - I shall be banned from here too one day if I keep harping on about it). I never really got far enough to be actually banned at TJ. My posts just stopped appearing even though I can spell 'homicide' (unlike Williams).

Come on. I am never boring.

 

[Skind]

I am not banned at dot org but my posts are subject to a peculiar form of moderation in which they never appear . I was banned from dot net for being 'boring' (about the lamp - I shall be banned from here too one day if I keep harping on about it). I never really got far enough to be actually banned at TJ. My posts just stopped appearing even though I can spell 'homicide' (unlike Williams).

Come on. I am never boring.

I doubt I could remember my user name in order to try to log back in. Can't remember signing up at all, but this must have been late 2009, early 2010 or so, back when I still thought they might have been guilty.

Will check my email accounts later, but I may have used my academic account that is now inactive. Doubt I used my professional one.