Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[anglolawyer]

Not with p2p. You need to wait for the download to finish.


Oh, come on. I have the kindle book at hand. She does mention pausing the film.



She does mention reading Harry Potter, too.

Is this where we have a discussion in which you can't be bothered to cite? If so, let's not bother shall we?

 

[Katody Matrass]

Is this where we have a discussion in which you can't be bothered to cite? If so, let's not bother shall we?

You need to read the book, at least up to the description of the interrogation.

My Kindle for PC has this wonderful feature of full text search. I can enter a phrase like "Harry potter" or a word like "paused" and results pop up immediately. That's quite cool.

Raffaele sat down at his desk and rolled a joint, and I climbed into his lap to read aloud to him from another Harry Potter book, this one in German. I translated the parts he didn’t understand, as best I could, into Italian or English while we smoked and giggled.

Knox, Amanda (2013-04-30). Waiting to Be Heard: A Memoir (Kindle Locations 819-820). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

“Amélie.” “How long is that movie?” “I don’t know.” “Did you watch it all the way through?” “Well, we paused it at some point, because we noticed that the sink was leaking.” “But you said you’d had dinner before that.” “I guess you’re right. I think the sink leaked before we watched the movie, but then I remember pausing it.” “Why did you pause it?” “I don’t remember.”

Knox, Amanda (2013-04-30). Waiting to Be Heard: A Memoir (Kindle Locations 1466-1471). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

 

[anglolawyer]

Is this where we have a discussion in which you can't be bothered to cite? If so, let's not bother shall we?

You need to read the book, at least up to the description of the interrogation.

I have.

My Kindle for PC has this wonderful feature of full text search. I can enter a phrase like "Harry potter" or a word like "paused" and results pop up immediately. That's quite cool.

Quote:
Raffaele sat down at his desk and rolled a joint, and I climbed into his lap to read aloud to him from another Harry Potter book, this one in German. I translated the parts he didn’t understand, as best I could, into Italian or English while we smoked and giggled.

Knox, Amanda (2013-04-30). Waiting to Be Heard: A Memoir (Kindle Locations 819-820). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Quote:
“Amélie.” “How long is that movie?” “I don’t know.” “Did you watch it all the way through?” “Well, we paused it at some point, because we noticed that the sink was leaking.” “But you said you’d had dinner before that.” “I guess you’re right. I think the sink leaked before we watched the movie, but then I remember pausing it.” “Why did you pause it?” “I don’t remember.”

Knox, Amanda (2013-04-30). Waiting to Be Heard: A Memoir (Kindle Locations 1466-1471). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

What point are you trying to make? You have just quoted two extracts that make mine. The Harry Potter reading takes place after Amelie at location 819-820 but in the second memoriale (location 2044 - I am unable to copy and paste from the iPad) it takes place before. Then you post an extract from the interrogations in which she can't remember when she had dinner nor when the leak happened. Yes, she mentioned the pausing of Amelie to the police or, rather, in her recollection of a recollection she does, but it's not in the memoriale.

Just so we don't get too carried away, please read what I said about this stuff, which is that it doesn't amount to a row of beans. But if you want to argue she has only given one clear and consistent account of the evening please say so plainly and then we can have it out. I'm not arguing with a shadow.

 

[Dan O.]

Amelie

Il Favoloso Mondo Di Amelie.avi
The Fabulous World of Amelie
Runtime 120 minutes (it.wikipedia)
created‛ on Sunday 28 October at 22:36, (Massei 326)
Last opened 2007-11-01 18:27:15
Last access 2007-11-01 21:10:32
(difference 2:43:17 = 163+ minutes)

 

[Katody Matrass]

Il Favoloso Mondo Di Amelie.avi
The Fabulous World of Amelie
Runtime 120 minutes (it.wikipedia)
created‛ on Sunday 28 October at 22:36, (Massei 326)
Last opened 2007-11-01 18:27:15
Last access 2007-11-01 21:10:32
(difference 2:43:17 = 163+ minutes)

Thanks, that sums it up very good. She must have told Raf about Amelie on Sunday or before. Incredible how much you can reconstruct if you really pore through the documentation.

 

[anglolawyer]

Il Favoloso Mondo Di Amelie.avi
The Fabulous World of Amelie
Runtime 120 minutes (it.wikipedia)
created‛ on Sunday 28 October at 22:36, (Massei 326)
Last opened 2007-11-01 18:27:15
Last access 2007-11-01 21:10:32
(difference 2:43:17 = 163+ minutes)

Thanks Dan.

So, 40 minutes of pauses but, yet another anomaly: now it turns out it was 'created' (=downloaded?) on the 28th. It looks worse and worse.

 

[anglolawyer]

Thanks, that sums it up very good. She must have told Raf about Amelie on Sunday or before. Incredible how much you can reconstruct if you really pore through the documentation.

Funny how you direct that to Dan but ignore my reply to you. Are you advancing a proposition of any kind or just taking pot shots?

 

[Katody Matrass]

I have.


What point are you trying to make? You have just quoted two extracts that make mine. The Harry Potter reading takes place after Amelie at location 819-820 but in the second memoriale (location 2044 - I am unable to copy and paste from the iPad) it takes place before. Then you post an extract from the interrogations in which she can't remember when she had dinner nor when the leak happened. Yes, she mentioned the pausing of Amelie to the police or, rather, in her recollection of a recollection she does, but it's not in the memoriale.

Neither the memoriale nor the book attempts to reconstruct the evening precisely and with all the details.

The purpose of the memoriale was to document the memories that came back to her and report how it made her sure her statement about Patrick was false, not fully reconstruct what she did at Raffaele's.

The description in the book shows how ordinary the evening was, introducing only the elements that will play some role later.

 

[anglolawyer]

Neither the memoriale nor the book attempts to reconstruct the evening precisely and with all the details.

The purpose of the memoriale was to document the memories that came back to her and report how it made her sure her statement about Patrick was false, not fully reconstruct what she did at Raffaele's.

The description in the book shows how ordinary the evening was, introducing only the elements that will play some role later.

Thanks for explaining all that.

 

[Doghouse Reilly]

I have a "what if" question. If Amanda had ignored the advice that having a lawyer would make things go worse for her, and if she had insisted upon having legal counsel present for any questioning, would she still have ended up being held and charged with the murder of Meredith Kercher?

Obviously nobody can know for certain, but what are the chances?

 

[anglolawyer]

I have a "what if" question. If Amanda had ignored the advice that having a lawyer would make things go worse for her, and if she had insisted upon having legal counsel present for any questioning, would she still have ended up being held and charged with the murder of Meredith Kercher?

Obviously nobody can know for certain, but what are the chances?

IMO there is practically no chance she would have been arrested had she taken advice at an early stage.

 

[Grinder]

IMO there is practically no chance she would have been arrested had she taken advice at an early stage.

Given the quality of the early legal work for Amanda, I'm not so sure it would have made a difference unless she would have been given Maresca or Biscotti.

 

[Doghouse Reilly]

IMO there is practically no chance she would have been arrested had she taken advice at an early stage.

That was my impression, too. Very sad. I feel that there is a great lack in our (U.S.) educational system in terms of instilling in young people an understanding of the most effective ways to deal with issues of such gravity. Any children of mine will be taught early on how to stand up for themselves and to never underestimate the seriousness of encounters with elements of justice, foreign or domestic.

Most people never find themselves in circumstances where it matters much, but when they do, things sure can go wrong. Especially when you have madmen at the helm of the legal system.

 

[Doghouse Reilly]

Given the quality of the early legal work for Amanda, I'm not so sure it would have made a difference unless she would have been given Maresca or Biscotti.

Yes, I guess I was assuming the legal advice would be of sufficient quality, perhaps from a lawyer hired by her parents or something, but that certainly might not have been the case. This entire case is so frustrating.

 

[anglolawyer]

Given the quality of the early legal work for Amanda, I'm not so sure it would have made a difference unless she would have been given Maresca or Biscotti.

A lawyer consulted on, say, 02 Nov might have:

1 taken a full statement from her nailing down her recollections and focusing very particularly on her account of the morning of 02 Nov
2 sensed the direction enquiries were taking
3 protected her from oppresive and exhausting questioning and unlawful activity
4 prevented her from icriminating herself, Raffaele or Patrick
5 perhaps, monitored the police investigation and suggested promising lines of enquiry.

 

[Dan O.]

Thanks Dan.

So, 40 minutes of pauses but, yet another anomaly: now it turns out it was 'created' (=downloaded?) on the 28th. It looks worse and worse.

We don't know if the p2p software preserves the creation date. It's a presumption though that the downloads in that era took longer than the play time. In order to be ready to play when it was, the movie was probably downloaded previously and the Sunday time is as good as any other lacking specific information. It's entirely conceivable that Amanda had mentioned Amelie at an earlier time which prompted Raffaele to download it so it was available to be watched the next time Amanda mentioned it.

 

[Grinder]

A lawyer consulted on, say, 02 Nov might have:

1 taken a full statement from her nailing down her recollections and focusing very particularly on her account of the morning of 02 Nov
2 sensed the direction enquiries were taking
3 protected her from oppresive and exhausting questioning and unlawful activity
4 prevented her from icriminating herself, Raffaele or Patrick
5 perhaps, monitored the police investigation and suggested promising lines of enquiry.

Or told her not to worry, cooperate, billed her 500 Euro and then meet with Mignini for a drink.

It has always baffled me that Raf's dad didn't reject the advice of his attorney friend and insist he get counsel. And his sister why wasn't she more proactive?

Remember on the 3rd the first day I would think an attorney would have been considered Amanda would have been a bit anxious to be spending 250 an hour when she was innocent.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

That was my impression, too. Very sad. I feel that there is a great lack in our (U.S.) educational system in terms of instilling in young people an understanding of the most effective ways to deal with issues of such gravity. Any children of mine will be taught early on how to stand up for themselves and to never underestimate the seriousness of encounters with elements of justice, foreign or domestic.

Most people never find themselves in circumstances where it matters much, but when they do, things sure can go wrong. Especially when you have madmen at the helm of the legal system.

The reality is that many police detectives have no investigative skills whatsoever, and they don't even try. Their one and only technique is to identify a suspect and get him/her to confess.

It looks like PBS has taken the full Central Park Five documentary off their website. That's too bad. I'm glad I downloaded it when I could.

If the cops in that case had bothered to look at other complaints in their own files, they would have found a description of a similar attack involving a man with stitches on his face. Local hospital records would have led them to the rapist, and the DNA would have checked out. They would have solved the case, pulled a dangerous predator off the street, and prevented the murder of a young mother.

But that is a lot of work, and they couldn't be bothered. They had a gaggle of kids who had been presented to them as suspects, and the sum total of their "investigation" was to use every trick in the book to get them to confess.

Then they took their bows before an adoring public. I was living in NYC at that time, and I was one of those credulous zombies, happy to be part of a society where the business of law and order is in such capable hands. It makes me sick to think about it.

 

[Supernaut]

The Kerchers are, officially, not despicable.

Anyone who asserts otherwise will have their posts consigned to "AAH".

You have been notified.

 

[acbytesla]

Apparently Follain wrote:

"[Knox] fails to say that [Cassation] definitively convicted her of slandering an innocent man, confirming an earlier three-year prison sentence (which she had already served)"

"the book fails to tackle the unanswered questions about Kercher’s death — why, and how, did she die? All questions that still torment the Kercher family"

Yes, it is shocking that someone locked up for 4 years can't shed light on what happened that night.

Really? Memories don't get better over time, they get worse. Details get lost, especially when everyone is arguing about it. For example, I see no evidence of Amanda calling her mother first in the phone records. Yet the police and prosecution insisted over and over again that she did....even in the appeal they insisted that she did. Now we have Amanda saying that she did.

Is there some record of this call that I no nothing about? There is not a record of this call in the Massei's judgement where he lists the phone records of Amanda, Raffaele and Meredith?

Or is this an implanted false memory caused by everyone telling Amanda that she did call her mom?

Overall I think Amanda did a good job in her book. But going in, it was extremely unlikely that Amanda would know any more what happened to Meredith than the landscaper who does my yard.

I bought the book so I could understand what it is like to be sucked into the whirlwind of injustice and how a human being deals with being wrongfully convicted of murder and spending 4 years of their life in a surreal tragic existence with the terrifying thought that you could spend 30 years of your life that way.