Biblical Flood? Fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru

[Christian Klippel]

We actualy have strong archeological evidence of prehistoric trade routes that stretched from the Middle East to Northern Europe that predate the rising of sea levels at the end of the last glaciation oeriod by quite a long time. News could easily travel along such routes.

For one, the Middle East ist not that far away from Europe. Then, even that would cause quite some delay between the event and people from Middle East and Europe meeting to share the news. Also, in no way i would consider rising sea levels as a flood. To be truly a global flood i say it must cover the land masses, if not completely then at least most of it.

Add in the issue that to declare something global, the reporting people that agree that some kind of flood happened at a specific time must be, in turn, from all over the world. That's what the word "global" implies.

That people from two geographic locations that are rather close together (considering the global scale) agree that some sea level rose does not make it a global flood. And to embellish/change that over time to actually be told as a global flood is way closer to complete fabrication then it is to simply "enhancing" some story.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Sideroxylon]

AiG makes a pretty compelling argument for a global interpretation:

Let me urge you to read carefully Genesis 6-9—chapters dealing with the Flood. If God was really trying to describe a local flood, He surely could have written a little more clearly, for over and over again the wording demands a global flood. In fact, I have counted more than 100 times when the wording implies a global flood. It is true that some of the individual words could be understood in a local sense, but in the context, no other position than that of a global flood is defensible. Consider these few quotes of the many: ‘the face of the earth (i.e. planet)’ (6:1); ‘end of all flesh. . . the earth is filled with violence . . . I will destroy them with the earth’ (6:13); ‘destroy all flesh wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven, and everything that is in the earth shall die’ (6:17). If God had intended to describe a global world-destroying flood, He couldn’t have said it any more clearly.

Furthermore, God promised never to send another flood like Noah’s Flood (9:11,15), but there have been many local floods, even regional floods, since Noah’s time. If Noah’s Flood was only local, then God lied to us. Likewise, there was no need for Noah to build an ark for his survival. He had up to 120 years’ warning (6:3), long enough to walk anywhere on the earth, certainly out of the region of the coming local flood.​

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v12/n2/noah

But very clearly the things that are predicted by a global flood, like present day species distributions congruent with origins in eastern Anatolia, are not cashed out in observation. There was no global flood.

Doc, could you comment on the AiG argument for Genesis referring to a global flood?

 

[DOC]

Some do, some don't.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2011/06/28/did-moses-write-genesis]

The majority do, as well you know...

No, I didn't know, do you have a link that supports the majority of biblical scholars feel that way.

It doesn't on the copies, which seems to happen a lot on ancient writings. That's why other evidence is looked for which I presented in a previous post.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.p...50#post9194750

So essentially, what you are actualy saying is that you cannot quote me the part in the Book of Genesis itself that names it's author because if it ever did name it's author in the 'original' scripture then that scripture has now been changed and the original version is lost to history, correct?...

You might not know this but almost all original ancient documents have been lost and we only have the copies of those originals left.

And we get almost all of our information about Alexander the Great (the man who conquered Jerusalem, Palestine, and much of the known world at that time) from authors writing over 300 years after his death.

And if someone last week dug up a copy of Genesis in the desert that said Written by Moses, I doubt it would change many skeptic minds so the author thing is pretty much a non-issue.

 

[dafydd]

No, I didn't know, do you have a link that supports the majority of biblical scholars feel that way.

'Biblical scholars' is a contradiction in terms.

 

[SlackerBabbath]

No, I didn't know, do you have a link that supports the majority of biblical scholars feel that way.

Certainly.
taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Genesis
"current thinking places the first draft of Genesis either just before or during the Babylonian exile of the 6th century BCE, and the final edition in the late Exilic period or soon after."

When the term 'current thinking' is used, it means that it is the opinion of the majority of experts in whatever particular field is being discussed.

You might not know this but almost all original ancient documents have been lost and we only have the copies of those originals left.

Believe it or not, as someone who's closely studied religion, including Christianity, and how it developed for over a quarter of a century, I actualy am aware of that fact.

And we get almost all of our information about Alexander the Great (the man who conquered Jerusalem, Palestine, and much of the known world at that time) from authors writing over 300 years after his death.

Hmmm. While this is indeed fascinating stuff, I'm awfully sorry to have to repeat myself here but the question that I actualy asked you was; if the Book of Genesis has been changed from the original scripture, as you yourself have just claimed, then how do you know that the changed 'copies' that we read today are still a trustable source?

Any chance of you putting forward a reply to the question?

'Biblical scholars' is a contradiction in terms.

How so?

If you can have people who study the fictional works of Tolkein in a scholarly fashion, why can't you have people who study the Bible in the same way?
Biblical scholarship isn't just the religious thing that it used to be y'know, modern Biblical scholarship is a way of studying an ancient civilisation via the things that they were writing, regardless of if we consider those writings as true or not. The field of Biblical scholarship actualy draws upon various disciplines ranging from archeology, literary criticism, history, philology, and social sciences.

 

[DOC]

Volcanoes that erupt with enough violence to fling water, fossils, and who knows what else for miles, and yet leave no other physical evidence of their existence?

DOC, you may want to crack a basic geology text...

THE GEOLOGY OF LEBANON
A SUMMARY

C. D. Walley

"We know very little about what lies off the coast of Lebanon and the area has not been mapped in detail..."

" ...within the last ten million years there was large-scale basaltic volcanism both in the extreme north of Lebanon with the Homs Basalts, which extend into the Akkar and in the extreme southeast where the Golan and Jebel Druze volcanics occur round Mount Hermon. The Golan volcanism in particular seems to have died out very recently, probably within the last 10,000 years..."

"...Older and subtler volcanic features can be seen exist in a number of Late Jurassic volcanic vents."

http://almashriq.hiof.no/ddc/projects/geology/geology-of-lebanon/

 

[pakeha]

No, I didn't know, do you have a link that supports the majority of biblical scholars feel that way. ...

DOC, even I have posted up such a link.
Why are you ignoring it?

 

[pakeha]

THE GEOLOGY OF LEBANON
A SUMMARY

C. D. Walley

"We know very little about what lies off the coast of Lebanon and the area has not been mapped in detail..."

" ...within the last ten million years there was large-scale basaltic volcanism both in the extreme north of Lebanon with the Homs Basalts, which extend into the Akkar and in the extreme southeast where the Golan and Jebel Druze volcanics occur round Mount Hermon. The Golan volcanism in particular seems to have died out very recently, probably within the last 10,000 years..."

"...Older and subtler volcanic features can be seen exist in a number of Late Jurassic volcanic vents."

http://almashriq.hiof.no/ddc/projects/geology/geology-of-lebanon/

Excellent, DOC.
Now.
What does this tell us about the Genesis account?

 

[Craig B]

THE GEOLOGY OF LEBANON
A SUMMARY

C. D. Walley

"We know very little about what lies off the coast of Lebanon and the area has not been mapped in detail..."

" ...within the last ten million years there was large-scale basaltic volcanism both in the extreme north of Lebanon with the Homs Basalts, which extend into the Akkar and in the extreme southeast where the Golan and Jebel Druze volcanics occur round Mount Hermon. The Golan volcanism in particular seems to have died out very recently, probably within the last 10,000 years..."

"...Older and subtler volcanic features can be seen exist in a number of Late Jurassic volcanic vents."

http://almashriq.hiof.no/ddc/projects/geology/geology-of-lebanon/

Yes DOC. There are things that happened ten million years go, and other things that ended less than ten thousand years ago. Agreed!

 

[SlackerBabbath]

THE GEOLOGY OF LEBANON
A SUMMARY

C. D. Walley

"We know very little about what lies off the coast of Lebanon and the area has not been mapped in detail..."

" ...within the last ten million years there was large-scale basaltic volcanism both in the extreme north of Lebanon with the Homs Basalts, which extend into the Akkar and in the extreme southeast where the Golan and Jebel Druze volcanics occur round Mount Hermon. The Golan volcanism in particular seems to have died out very recently, probably within the last 10,000 years..."

"...Older and subtler volcanic features can be seen exist in a number of Late Jurassic volcanic vents."

http://almashriq.hiof.no/ddc/projects/geology/geology-of-lebanon/

DOC, you've just used a quote that advocates dates of 10,000 years ago and 199.6 to 145.5 million years ago (Jurassic age) to support a book that dates the creation of the earth to just 6000 years ago.

EDIT.
Ahh, I see this has already been mentioned.

 

[Sideroxylon]

THE GEOLOGY OF LEBANON
A SUMMARY

C. D. Walley

"We know very little about what lies off the coast of Lebanon and the area has not been mapped in detail..."

" ...within the last ten million years there was large-scale basaltic volcanism both in the extreme north of Lebanon with the Homs Basalts, which extend into the Akkar and in the extreme southeast where the Golan and Jebel Druze volcanics occur round Mount Hermon. The Golan volcanism in particular seems to have died out very recently, probably within the last 10,000 years..."

"...Older and subtler volcanic features can be seen exist in a number of Late Jurassic volcanic vents."

http://almashriq.hiof.no/ddc/projects/geology/geology-of-lebanon/

For reference, here is a guide for the time period that you have to work with for events in human history:

Homo sapiens originated in Africa, where it reached anatomical modernity about 200,000 years ago and began to exhibit full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago.[4] The human lineage diverged from the last common ancestor with its closest living relative, the chimpanzee, some five million years ago, evolving into the Australopithecines and eventually the genus Homo.[5] The first Homo species to move out of Africa was Homo erectus, the African variety of which, together with Homo heidelbergensis, is considered to be the immediate ancestor of modern humans.[6][7] Homo sapiens proceeded to colonize the continents, arriving in Eurasia 125,000-60,000 years ago,​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

 

[DOC]

Certainly.
taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Genesis
"current thinking places the first draft of Genesis either just before or during the Babylonian exile of the 6th century BCE, and the final edition in the late Exilic period or soon after."

"Current thinking" -- that can mean anything. If I'm currently thinking that Moses wrote Genesis around 1400 BC. I can truthfully say "Current thinking places Genesis around 1400 BC."

 

[pakeha]

...Ahh, I see this has already been mentioned.

No worries!
I'm still recovering from the vision of volcano-ejected tunnelweb spiders raining upon New Zealand.

For reference, here is a guide for the time period that you have to work with for events in human history:

Homo sapiens originated in Africa, where it reached anatomical modernity about 200,000 years ago and began to exhibit full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago.[4] The human lineage diverged from the last common ancestor with its closest living relative, the chimpanzee, some five million years ago, evolving into the Australopithecines and eventually the genus Homo.[5] The first Homo species to move out of Africa was Homo erectus, the African variety of which, together with Homo heidelbergensis, is considered to be the immediate ancestor of modern humans.[6][7] Homo sapiens proceeded to colonize the continents, arriving in Eurasia 125,000-60,000 years ago,​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

And we know this by studying fossils!
DOC, isn't learning fun?

 

[SlackerBabbath]

"Current thinking" -- that can mean anything. If I'm currently thinking that Moses wrote Genesis around 1400 BC. I can truthfully say "Current thinking places Genesis around 1400 BC."

To repeat what I just said, when the term 'current thinking' is used, it means that it is the opinion of the majority of experts in whatever particular field is being discussed.

Changing the accepted definition of a term to suit your own needs doesn't really count.

Now, how about answering that earlier question of 'if the Book of Genesis has been changed from the original scripture, as you yourself have just claimed, then how do you know that the changed 'copies' that we read today are still a trustable source?'

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"Current thinking" -- that can mean anything. If I'm currently thinking that Moses wrote Genesis around 1400 BC. I can truthfully say "Current thinking places Genesis around 1400 BC."

It would be equivalent only if it was backed up with some kind of GOOD evidence. Haven't seen that from you yet.

 

[joobz]

THE GEOLOGY OF LEBANON
A SUMMARY

C. D. Walley

"We know very little about what lies off the coast of Lebanon and the area has not been mapped in detail..."

" ...within the last ten million years there was large-scale basaltic volcanism both in the extreme north of Lebanon with the Homs Basalts, which extend into the Akkar and in the extreme southeast where the Golan and Jebel Druze volcanics occur round Mount Hermon. The Golan volcanism in particular seems to have died out very recently, probably within the last 10,000 years..."

"...Older and subtler volcanic features can be seen exist in a number of Late Jurassic volcanic vents."

http://almashriq.hiof.no/ddc/projects/geology/geology-of-lebanon/

Very interesting.
Now, in what way does that represent a response to hokulele's post?
From what I read, it actually supports her condemnation of your concepts of geology.

 

[Sideroxylon]

"Current thinking" -- that can mean anything. If I'm currently thinking that Moses wrote Genesis around 1400 BC. I can truthfully say "Current thinking places Genesis around 1400 BC."

You could say that but it would look very silly. Clearly current thinking of experts who have examined various streams of evidence is not equal to the opinion of one non expert who cannot back his assertions up.

 

[DOC]

THE GEOLOGY OF LEBANON
A SUMMARY

C. D. Walley

"We know very little about what lies off the coast of Lebanon and the area has not been mapped in detail..."

" ...within the last ten million years there was large-scale basaltic volcanism both in the extreme north of Lebanon with the Homs Basalts, which extend into the Akkar and in the extreme southeast where the Golan and Jebel Druze volcanics occur round Mount Hermon. The Golan volcanism in particular seems to have died out very recently, probably within the last 10,000 years..."

"...Older and subtler volcanic features can be seen exist in a number of Late Jurassic volcanic vents."

http://almashriq.hiof.no/ddc/projects/geology/geology-of-lebanon/

For reference, here is a guide for the time period that you have to work with for events in human history:

Homo sapiens originated in Africa, where it reached anatomical modernity about 200,000 years ago and began to exhibit full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago.[4] The human lineage diverged from the last common ancestor with its closest living relative, the chimpanzee, some five million years ago, evolving into the Australopithecines and eventually the genus Homo.[5] The first Homo species to move out of Africa was Homo erectus, the African variety of which, together with Homo heidelbergensis, is considered to be the immediate ancestor of modern humans.[6][7] Homo sapiens proceeded to colonize the continents, arriving in Eurasia 125,000-60,000 years ago,​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

What does unproven evolution theory and opinions have to do with my post about volcanoes in Lebanon?

But since you put it up I'll respond to the evolution opinions with this:

http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-index

http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-study-guide-lesson-6

 

[Correa Neto]

C'mon, post it anyway.
You know you want to!

Well, it'll be of no help regarding YEC scammers and their blind followers, but since there's always a chance that it will help cure or ease the symptoms of someone's religion-induced ignorance...

Follow the linkie thingie below to the geological time scale.
http://www.geosociety.org/science/timescale/timescl.pdf
Before we move on, please note its not in scale. Precambrian is the largest division (~4Gy) but is relegated to a single collumn, same space used by the pesky Cenozoic, a mere 65My (0.065Gy) time span.

Now, note the number of "-ians" each larger unit ("Eon") is divided and how many "-ians" subdivide the Periods and Epochs.

It all begun back in the XVII century, when people realized that not only (sedimentary) rock beds could be followed along large horizontal distances, but also that as you move upwards or downwards across a cliff, the fossil contents of rocks change and in some cases, quite fast and dramatically. Some fossils had widespread vertical span while others had very short ones, say, like restricted to a single thin bed. Then they noticed parts of a given fossil assemblage say, from a limestone in England could be present at a sandstone in Portugal, across a large horizontal distance and that at these two assemblages, some of those fossils with a small vertical span were included. This meant the limestone from England and the sandstone from Portugal were deposited at the same time, when that particular species of critters lived. That species had a large habitat area but lived for a short (in human terms) time. Good for correlation. Tiny critters such as foramnifera, dinoflagelates, ostracods and diatoms are excellent for such purpose, allowing very narrow definitions of time intervals.

So, most of those "whateverthefwordians" divisions and subdivisions actually represent fossil assemblages of different sizes distributed through time. No wonder some of those dividions will correspond to mass extinction events. Now, Mr. Rockhound found a given fossil assemblage at a given rock layer at a given site. Among them, a number are from unknown species, but since the assemblage includes other known critters, wich we know are restricted to the Cenomanian time division, then Mr. Rockhound can conclude the unknown fossils and the rocks hosting them are from that particular time.

Cool, aint it? But wait, this is simply a relative dating, we still don't know how many years ago those critters lived. So how can Mr. Rockhound know when those sediments were deposited?

Mr. Rockhound can do this because before him, other people working at several other parts of the world located volcanic rocks interbedded within sediments containing fossils wich are restricted to the geologic time division called Cenomanian. They not only found them - they also assayed minerals which compose those volcanic rocks, looking for unstable isotopes and the products of their decay. Based on the relative concentrations of parent and daughter isotopes and the decay constant, they managed to calculate the absolute ages of crystallization of those voclanic rocks. This allowed Mr. Rockhound to conclude the unknown fossils date back from the Cenomanian, a time slice ranging from 100 to 93.9My ago. This will allow geologists and paleontologists to establish absolute dates for a sedimentary rock based on their fossil contents.

Suck it up, creationist scammers.

 

[Sideroxylon]

What does evolution theory and opinions have to do with my post about volcanoes in Lebanon?

But since you put it up I'll respond to the evolution opinions with this:

http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-index

http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-study-guide-lesson-6

My wiki link was not dealing specifically with evolution but outlined our best understandings of broad human history. I am very familiar with American evangelical misunderstandings/misrepresentations of evolution so I'll pass here. If I thought you would make a better showing of arguing your position on evolution than the deliberate obfuscation going on here, I might ask you to take it up in the science forums.

And, Doc, its hilarious that you have nothing to say on that AiG argument for the Bible describing a global flood. This is no discussion, its all about you trying to avoid defending the obviously indefensible.