Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Charlie Wilkes]

Most murders are committed by someone the victim knows.

Yes, about 85-90 percent globally. This is why small police departments start any homicide investigation by grilling the people who knew the victim. Most of the time, somebody knows what happened. They know that someone had a reason to commit the murder. If the police can get that story, they often can solve the case.

But Amanda did not have a reason to kill Meredith. Raffaele certainly did not. In fact, nobody did. This was one of the 10-15 percent of murders in which the victim had no relationship with the perpetrator. That is evident in the forensic evidence as well as the nature of the crime scene.

But the cops didn't stop to think about the nature of the crime scene, and they didn't understand its significance. They followed the one and only approach they do understand, a rough heuristic driven by the factoid you cite here. It led to a spectacularly wrong answer. They did the same thing with the Michael Morton case in Texas, and with the Suzanne Jovin case in New Haven, CT, a murder that has never been solved. This is the cause of many wrongful convictions.

 

[JREF2010]

I would like Barbie, Andrea, John F, Pisa, Squires et al. to tell us where and from whom they received the early leaked details on the case.

Thats one I find interesting too. Especially the leaked HIV-Sex list. The reasoning is that the list was from a time where she was in police custody and the few people in power shouldnt be that hard to trace to uncover the leak.

The doctor and who else? Who would have power to access this "sex partner list" derived from the false HIV diagnosis?

I would guess a small group, a few names. Migninni seems to be aware of media and websites he wants shutdown, I would imagine he was in power enough to be one of the few aware of the leaks.

This whole calunnia thing is pathetic, as I see it, the Prosecutor can do anything and make up any vile and disgusting remark, but the common folk are supposed to live in fear and not say anything to defend themself or else! How do they allow this to go on ?

 

[Grinder]

Thats one I find interesting too. Especially the leaked HIV-Sex list. The reasoning is that the list was from a time where she was in police custody and the few people in power shouldnt be that hard to trace to uncover the leak.

The doctor and who else? Who would have power to access this "sex partner list" derived from the false HIV diagnosis?

I would guess a small group, a few names. Migninni seems to be aware of media and websites he wants shutdown, I would imagine he was in power enough to be one of the few aware of the leaks.

This whole calunnia thing is pathetic, as I see it, the Prosecutor can do anything and make up any vile and disgusting remark, but the common folk are supposed to live in fear and not say anything to defend themself or else! How do they allow this to go on ?

Not only that but Barbie for sure and perhaps Andrea made much of the emails from the FOA camp and how the PR supertanker was trying to skew the coverage.

It seems only just and fair for the reporters to tell us where some key misinformation came from, such as the bathroom picture, the bleach receipt, the mop and bucket, sex game gone bad, satanic ritual, etc.

 

[Grinder]

Yes, about 85-90 percent globally. This is why small police departments start any homicide investigation by grilling the people who knew the victim. Most of the time, somebody knows what happened. They know that someone had a reason to commit the murder. If the police can get that story, they often can solve the case.

But Amanda did not have a reason to kill Meredith. Raffaele certainly did not. In fact, nobody did. This was one of the 10-15 percent of murders in which the victim had no relationship with the perpetrator. That is evident in the forensic evidence as well as the nature of the crime scene.

But the cops didn't stop to think about the nature of the crime scene, and they didn't understand its significance. They followed the one and only approach they do understand, a rough heuristic driven by the factoid you cite here. It led to a spectacularly wrong answer. They did the same thing with the Michael Morton case in Texas, and with the Suzanne Jovin case in New Haven, CT, a murder that has never been solved. This is the cause of many wrongful convictions.

I repeat, she did know her killer. She had attended at least one party with him and probably bumped into him more than once in the bar scene. The police from day one were of the mind it was consensual sex.

 

[Grinder]

Well it took me long enough to dig up that link and I'm not going hunting for more, but in any case, you were still wrong. The cops affected not to know who Patrick was during the interrogation of 05-06. If we agree they knew the records but not the content then we can see the whole thing that night was a set up.

I am still mulling over the deleted text thing in light of Amanda's account, which certainly has some new points and is a clearer account than she gave at trial, unsurprisingly considering the chaotic nature of her examination.

I wouldn't use any form of the word mull.

I'm sure that police knew who Patrick was before the 5th. They had spotted him with AK in a plaza and he had called her the night of the 2nd.

Are you saying that Amanda wasn't asked anything about her work or what she did the night of the murder until the 5th? If she was asked it seems improbable that they didn't find out she had been scheduled to work and where.

 

[Grinder]

Wow her book has moved up to number 5 on Amazon.

How high did Myths on Trial get?

 

[Bill Williams]

Not only that but Barbie for sure and perhaps Andrea made much of the emails from the FOA camp and how the PR supertanker was trying to skew the coverage.

It seems only just and fair for the reporters to tell us where some key misinformation came from, such as the bathroom picture, the bleach receipt, the mop and bucket, sex game gone bad, satanic ritual, etc.

Not to mention the sensational and Pulitzer-style reporting of Andrea Vogt, passing this info straight to the hate sites as well as Seattle newspapers....

That:

1) Amanda admitted to being at the cottage with her "I was there" statement; when Amanda clearly was telling her mother that, "I was at Raffaele's";

2) Rudy's fast track trial had concluded that the multiple attackers included Raffaele and Amanda; when the SC motivations' report eventually id'ed none of these alleged extra attackers.​

Now, Andrea Vogt is reporting that Amanda Knox is virtually admitting to be the killer, in the inconsistencies in the book.... namely, that in an e-mail home in 2007 she'dd said that she looked through the keyhole of Meredith's room and saw nothing, and then in the 2013 book said she saw Meredith's purse. Or was it the other way around?

I always get so confused when in the presence of such journalistic lumninaries as Bernstein and Woodword.... er, Nadeau and Vogt.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I repeat, she did know her killer. She had attended at least one party with him and probably bumped into him more than once in the bar scene. The police from day one were of the mind it was consensual sex.

She knew who he was, but there's no indication that he had any reason to kill her other than the circumstances of the moment, or that it would have been any different had they never met.

The police from day one didn't know what they were dealing with and they misread lots of things. I can see why they might have considered the possibility that the break-in could have been staged, but they had no real reason to think it was. As for imagining that it was a consensual sexual encounter that somehow became violent, that is simply clueless.

It was an unusual homicide. It wasn't planned, and the sexual assault came after the knife attack. One has to study the crime scene photos and the autopsy report to figure all that out. But that's not what the police did, is it? They zeroed in on the woman who first stumbled across the crime scene. They questioned her repeatedly and picked at vagaries in her story. They took note of her mannerisms, which they regarded as strange and inappropriate. They browbeat her into making a false statement, and they held a triumphant press conference in which they announced that it was a sex game that turned violent.

Then they looked at the evidence, which told a completely different story, and they were stuck. Just like the idiots who railroaded Billy Wayne Cope in North Carolina. He confessed, right? He even re-enacted the crime on video, but without mentioning his accomplice who left DNA at the crime scene, because the cops only found out about that later.

 

[Dan O.]

It seems only just and fair for the reporters to tell us where some key misinformation came from, such as the bathroom picture, the bleach receipt, the mop and bucket, sex game gone bad, satanic ritual, etc.

Please try to keep up. We broke The case of that bathroom picture here on JREF. Even got the perp taking the picture recorded on video.

 

[Grinder]

Please try to keep up. We broke The case of that bathroom picture here on JREF. Even got the perp taking the picture recorded on video.

I know you fingered the photographer. Did any writer or editor come forward? That's what I'm talking about.

 

[acbytesla]

I repeat, she did know her killer. She had attended at least one party with him and probably bumped into him more than once in the bar scene. The police from day one were of the mind it was consensual sex.

Yes, Meredith knew her killer. She smoked grass with him in the boys' part of the cottage. From my knowledge they never met at any other time. Feel free to correct me Grinder, but I don't count any on Rudy's testimony on this.

I think the reason Meredith was killed was because she knew Rudy and unlike Rudy's encounter with Christian, he was afraid of the world knowing he was a burglar. Especially considering he just got out of jail for B&E days before.

 

[Grinder]

Yes, Meredith knew her killer. She smoked grass with him in the boys' part of the cottage. From my knowledge they never met at any other time. Feel free to correct me Grinder, but I don't count any on Rudy's testimony on this.

I think the reason Meredith was killed was because she knew Rudy and unlike Rudy's encounter with Christian, he was afraid of the world knowing he was a burglar. Especially considering he just got out of jail for B&E days before.

We will never know for sure but Meredith spent a lot of time in the club/bar scene and Rudi was out and about as well. He was out Halloween and may or may not have talked with Meredith.

He wasn't in jail IIRC but rather was sent back to Perugia by the Milanese police. I'm not sure they considered it a B&E because it was to sleep but I don't know.

From what I've gathered about Italian law, he would fear a conviction for B&E enough to kill someone.

 

[christianahannah]

Thats one I find interesting too. Especially the leaked HIV-Sex list. The reasoning is that the list was from a time where she was in police custody and the few people in power shouldnt be that hard to trace to uncover the leak.

The doctor and who else? Who would have power to access this "sex partner list" derived from the false HIV diagnosis?

I would guess a small group, a few names. Migninni seems to be aware of media and websites he wants shutdown, I would imagine he was in power enough to be one of the few aware of the leaks.

This whole calunnia thing is pathetic, as I see it, the Prosecutor can do anything and make up any vile and disgusting remark, but the common folk are supposed to live in fear and not say anything to defend themself or else! How do they allow this to go on ?

The information about the HIV partner list from Barbie Nadeau January 16, 2008:

After that, she goes on to list all the young men she has had sex with since coming to Italy, including one man she met on the train to Perugia. In that entry—part of which was redacted before her lawyers released it—she notes when her partners used condoms and writes about her fear of contracting AIDS.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/01/16/prison-diaries.html

I don't know how much of the diaries (both Raffaele's and Amanda's) were released by their attorneys, if this is so. I think the diaries were seized sometime mid-to-late November 2007.

There was a book of Amanda's diary written by a journalist with Corriere della Sera who said she had gotten the diary as it was part of the case record. Amanda sued the journalist, the case was won and damages awarded to Amanda but that judgement was turned over on appeal and I am not sure of its status presently.

 

[Grinder]

The information about the HIV partner list from Barbie Nadeau January 16, 2008:



http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/01/16/prison-diaries.html

I don't know how much of the diaries (both Raffaele's and Amanda's) were released by their attorneys, if this is so. I think the diaries were seized sometime mid-to-late November 2007.

There was a book of Amanda's diary written by a journalist with Corriere della Sera who said she had gotten the diary as it was part of the case record. Amanda sued the journalist, the case was won and damages awarded to Amanda but that judgement was turned over on appeal and I am not sure of its status presently.

Well that bit by Nadeau is contested by Amanda in her interview. It would be good for Barbie to show the source. I don't believe her but would believe she is so dense that the police could have fooled her.

 

[acbytesla]

We will never know for sure but Meredith spent a lot of time in the club/bar scene and Rudi was out and about as well. He was out Halloween and may or may not have talked with Meredith.

He wasn't in jail IIRC but rather was sent back to Perugia by the Milanese police. I'm not sure they considered it a B&E because it was to sleep but I don't know.

From what I've gathered about Italian law, he would fear a conviction for B&E enough to kill someone.

Whose to say Grinder? I think it had more to do with the embarrassment of being exposed to everyone in the community than the jail time for burglary or B&E.

There may have been some sexual component at that time as well....but no way do I believe that Rudy or anyone else for that matter "staged the burglary"

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I don't think they participated in the actual murder. Raffaele most likely was not even there at that time.
The prosecution's theory is wrong, no wonder they could not prove it.

Wow, we should talk, just today I heard Barbie N say she believed Amanda wasn't telling the truth and what you just said above fits into what I believe to have happened as well. She was convicted, and will be again, not because of the fact that she actually killed Meredith, but because she is obviously lying, ad if she is lying, she must be guilty. Now, she can no longer change her stories, no one will believe her anymore.

 

[Malkmus]

Wow, we should talk, just today I heard Barbie N say she believed Amanda wasn't telling the truth and what you just said above fits into what I believe to have happened as well. She was convicted, and will be again, not because of the fact that she actually killed Meredith, but because she is obviously lying, ad if she is lying, she must be guilty. Now, she can no longer change her stories, no one will believe her anymore.

So neither Amanda nor Raf committed the murder, they just lied about it? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

The whole timing is gibberish.

Now in the book she says that she called Filomena and Meredith's both phones while walking to Raffaele. And Filomena called back while she was still at his house. That is at 12:20.

But then how could they have a breakfast and discussion of "about an hour"
when at 12:34 they were already in the cottage's cell?

She now even dropped into the story a new call to her mother before anything started (even before the first call to Filomena, even before she knew that anybody had broken into her room).
This call never was discussed before.

It is complete nonsense.

Where does she say she had a discussion of "about an hour" at Raffaele's place? I see a "quick breakfast," followed by this:

Even before we’d downed the last sips of our coffee, Filomena called back. “What do you see?” she demanded. Her panic was retriggering my own.

“Filomena,” I said, as evenly as I could, “we’re just leaving Raffaele’s.”

That would be the 12:20 call, through the Via dell'Aquila tower that serves the area around Raffaele's apt. Amanda then says:

Ten minutes later, when we reached the villa, my stomach was knotted with dread.

She describes how Filomena called again, just after she and Raffaele discovered the broken window. That was the 12:34 call that went through the Piazza Lupettelli tower that serves the cottage.

What Amanda describes is exactly consistent with what the cell records show and what she has always said. The new call must be one we didn't know about because of a gap in the phone records available to us.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

So neither Amanda nor Raf committed the murder, they just lied about it? Is that what you're saying?

No, read it again

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Wow, we should talk, just today I heard Barbie N say she believed Amanda wasn't telling the truth and what you just said above fits into what I believe to have happened as well. She was convicted, and will be again, not because of the fact that she actually killed Meredith, but because she is obviously lying, ad if she is lying, she must be guilty. Now, she can no longer change her stories, no one will believe her anymore.

She never had any reason to lie. The story she tells in her book is the same one she told the cops on Nov. 2, 2007. She changed her story under pressure, during a police interrogation, just as many other innocent people have done.