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Why is there so much crackpot physics?

xtifr, listen up, you'll like this.

I don't have an hour to spare, but I had a little sniff around and found some stills here. Have a look at slide 19. It's about some crank called Bob who claims Einstein was wrong and E≠mc² or E=mc². Remember we were talking about mass, and I said the Higgs mechanism contradicted E=mc² because "the mass of a body is a measure of its energy-content", not something else. And you said I was wrong?

I'm not Bob. You are.
A perfect example in the slide about how crackpots have "terminal reasoining". Farsight will never give up the idea that he holds the one truth, even when continually confronted by descriptions of his own behaviour. Even when confronted with questions about his own theory that, if he were to think of them for a minute, should make immediately plain to him that he doesn't understand the topic well enough to justify his claims.
 
There's a good bit in that talk where Bob (I think) fails to grasp the significance of his fail when he's made a unit error...
 
Here again we see an intriguing preponderance of engineers involved in crackpot physics. My own personal experience is in the context of teaching freshman calculus and linear algebra to engineering students. I do have the general impression (perhaps unfairly) that the engineering students tended to perform poorly in math compared to the physics and mathematics majors.
That observation is certainly consistent with the fact that all the cranks I have observed in these threads seem to lack a good understanding of the mathematics needed to do physics.
A few computer programmers also come to mind. I personally know both engineers and computer professionals (retired) that embrace crackpot notions.
I acknowledge that the above comments are purely anecdotal and I'm on thin ice here.
You're not to notice a correlation between engineers and woo science, especially IDiocy; it's referred to as the Salem Hypothesis.
My own take is that engineers, and others on the edge of science, know enough to think they understand the subject, but not enough to realise they don't.
 
You're not to notice a correlation between engineers and woo science, especially IDiocy; it's referred to as the Salem Hypothesis


The Salem Hypothesis is the observation of the apparent correlation between the engineering trade and creationist beliefs (possibly due to crank magnetism, this can also include climate change denial and other crackpot beliefs). It holds that people who claim science expertise, whilst advocating creationism, tend to be formally trained as engineers.[1] This hypothesis does not address whether engineers tend to be creationists (the converse); however, it has been speculated that engineering predisposes people to a creation science view.

Well some of us (Engineers that is) do create things. So I guess in these cases it might just be an extension of that trend (something else we also do, extend trends and try to work with the implications).


My own take is that engineers, and others on the edge of science, know enough to think they understand the subject, but not enough to realise they don't.

A trend I have found in some Engineers. Even when the subject is, well, engineering.
 
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Since I've provided examples and evidence to the contrary, (such as the lack of feedback from philosophy of science to monitor and control risk in theory development) along with the perspective and its assumptions which are required to reach that conclusion, you don't seem to be paying attention and I don't feel any need to repeat reasoning that has already been ignored.
I ask, what tool specifically are you thinking of. You made the claim, what tool, cognitive of technological should be considered that isn't?


Control risk, you mean from things like what?

Becquerel and the glass plate?
 
Just a slight addition to my earlier thought experiment for Farsight:

You claim that mass is a measure of energy content, and that because of this (somehow) the Higgs mechanism can't be responsible for any portion of mass.

You also claim that by firing a laser (particles) at a chunk of iron (matter), that interact through a field (electromagnetism), one can increase mass.

You also claim that heat energy can be responsible for a portion of mass.

But mass is a measure of energy content, not heat! Why is it "OK" when particles (photons) interact via a filed (electromagnetism) to be responsible for a portion of the mass, but for Higgs bosons (particles) that interact via a field (Higgs) to be responsible for a portion of the mass?

Your arguments are inconsistent. There's no reason for your objections to the Higgs not to be extended to any other similar concept.

Not that I really expect you to understand any of this, respond honestly, or do anything but the bare assertions you've continued with so far. I suspect you won't dissappoint.

Although I have stayed away from math (not even a 2+2 in there), so there's some hope.
 
Beyond that, I suspect that mathematics and physics simply draw a smarter and more dedicated crowd than engineering. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for anyone who gets a degree in engineering from a good program, but mathematicians and physicists are, I think, more elite on average.

As a physicist, I very much disagree. Maths, physics and engineering are simply different, and people will choose to study one over the others for any number of different reasons. I don't think I know a single engineer who couldn't have been a physicist if they'd wanted, they just happen to have different interests.

However, I do agree with your previous point. Generally, if you're having trouble with an engineering problem, the answer is more engineering - if your current device doesn't work, you make it more efficient, stronger, whatever, until it does. It's rarely the case that no solution is possible because it's forbidden by the laws of physics. There could therefore be a tendency to do the same even when the solution actually isn't possible. Perpetual motion is a good example. How many examples have we seen where someone builds a spinning thing with magnets and insists that it's just a matter of improving the bearings just a bit more and it will produce excess energy? Obviously I'm not suggesting all, or even most, engineers would fall into that trap, but it may well be easier for them to do so than for people who aren't used to working with that mindset in the first place.

As for being a random guy...OK, that's perhaps true. On the other hand, I am also a random guy who happens to have an award from NASA on the bookcase next to me for the risk management work I did on Gravity Probe B, which you seem to think I need schooling on...

About as good an example of the argument from irrelevant authority as one could hope to find. I remember a while ago we had a member who claimed to work at CERN, and yet spouted all kinds of nonsense. When I pointed out that CERN has rather more janitors than it does Nobel-winning physicists and could he perhaps provide some evidence for his obviously wrong claims, he went quiet and I don't think he's been back since. Similarly, we talking about physics here. Having an award for management is not in any way relevant to that, whether it's from an organisation that also employs physicists or not. Having an award for management on a project does not imply any understanding of the actual physics behind the project. I work at a particle accelerator, and the majority of people have absolutely no idea how it actually works because that's nothing to do with their actual job.

So instead of telling us all about risk management and how great you are at it, why not try addressing the actual science? As far as I can tell, so far your point seems to be that we won't be able to discover FTL travel unless we use risk management. As Ben M says, that's really not very helpful. Could you perhaps be a little more specific about how to use it and exactly what difference the changes you want would make? Bearing in mind that we don't know that FTL travel is possible at all, how exactly do you think orienting scientific progress with a particular defined goal in mind is compatible with, well, science?
 
By the way, as a member of large experimental collaborations, I've worked with professional project managers.

On a science project like this, it's the scientists who decide what the goals and methods are. The collaboration founders (physicists) decided what experiment to do. They decided on the R&D needs, the components and their arrangement, the precision requirements, the computational tools. The collaboration board (physicists, again) actually perform the R&D, design the components, diagnose the components that turn out not to work, write the software, run the software, etc.

As far as I can tell, the project manager's role was to listen to the physicists and turn our statements into Gantt charts. They look at the Gantt charts and monitor for things that are on the critical path, or in danger of becoming so. The project manager says (very useful) things like "Hey, guys, the project plan assumes that Task #400 and Task #506 can take place simultaneously, but they both want to use Resource #66a full-time"; or "Task #101 has missed three of its declared milestones by 1.5 months. If milestone #4 slips by more than 2 months, it impacts the critical path. Fix that." Or "The physicists involved proposed declaring 3-month contingency window for Tasks #6-10 collectively, but experience with tasks #2-5 suggest this is inadequate. I will budget assuming at least one of tasks in this group will overrun, and assign a 10% chance that two will overrun."

The project manager did NOT make statements like "You're measuring top quarks? I prefer Higgs bosons, they sound important. I will add a 'discover Higgs boson' milestone and complain that you're failing to meet it."

Again, I don't think that your claim "There's a risk of failing to discover truths about space and time" is an authentic statement of risk management. You don't have a Gantt chart showing how and when spacetime-knowledge milestones might be reached. You don't know what tasks already underway are tied to spacetime-truths milestones. You don't know the probability of success of those tasks, nor the resource-allocation among them. You don't have a new task to add to the chart, nor any evidence that such new tasks would decrease the schedule risk.

If you want to convince me that you *do* have such things, please go ahead.
 
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By the way, as a member of large experimental collaborations, I've worked with professional project managers.

On a science project like this, it's the scientists who decide what the goals and methods are. The collaboration founders (physicists) decided what experiment to do. They decided on the R&D needs, the components and their arrangement, the precision requirements, the computational tools. The collaboration board (physicists, again) actually perform the R&D, design the components, diagnose the components that turn out not to work, write the software, run the software, etc.

As far as I can tell, the project manager's role was to listen to the physicists and turn our statements into Gantt charts. They look at the Gantt charts and monitor for things that are on the critical path, or in danger of becoming so. The project manager says (very useful) things like "Hey, guys, the project plan assumes that Task #400 and Task #506 can take place simultaneously, but they both want to use Resource #66a full-time"; or "Task #101 has missed three of its declared milestones by 1.5 months. If milestone #4 slips by more than 2 months, it impacts the critical path. Fix that." Or "The physicists involved proposed declaring 3-month contingency window for Tasks #6-10 collectively, but experience with tasks #2-5 suggest this is inadequate. I will budget assuming at least one of tasks in this group will overrun, and assign a 10% chance that two will overrun."

The project manager did NOT make statements like "You're measuring top quarks? I prefer Higgs bosons, they sound important. I will add a 'discover Higgs boson' milestone and complain that you're failing to meet it."

Again, I don't think that your claim "There's a risk of failing to discover truths about space and time" is an authentic statement of risk management. You don't have a Gantt chart showing how and when spacetime-knowledge milestones might be reached. You don't know what tasks already underway are tied to spacetime-truths milestones. You don't know the probability of success of those tasks, nor the resource-allocation among them. You don't have a new task to add to the chart, nor any evidence that such new tasks would decrease the schedule risk.

If you want to convince me that you *do* have such things, please go ahead.

Excellent post, Ben.

Whilst I don't want to rip away my anonymity, I teach project managers, coach program managers and set up projects in my job. To have a project manager try to tell subject matter experts that they don't know what they're talking about would be frowned upon severely and I'd probably sack the PM if the client hadn't already. At the very minimum they'd be replaced and sent to a "re-education camp".
 
About as good an example of the argument from irrelevant authority as one could hope to find.
Indeed.

Risking my own anonymity to add to Kid Eager's post: I've been teaching a graduate-level course on managing software development. Starting with the very first day of class, I emphasize the importance of respecting your clients' domain-specific expertise.

It's been extraordinarily entertaining to see people claim experience in IT project management as authority to pronounce judgment upon modern physics.

[size=-2](At further risk to my anonymity, I'll repeat my Usual Disclaimer: I am not a physicist. My academic training was in mathematics, with some dabbling in physical sciences, philosophy, psychology, and computer science.)[/size]​
 
Just a slight addition to my earlier thought experiment for Farsight:

You claim that mass is a measure of energy content, and that because of this (somehow) the Higgs mechanism can't be responsible for any portion of mass.
Yes. That's what Einstein said. The mass of body is a measure of energy content. He even referred to the electron as a body. So the mass of the electron is a measure of its energy content. Not something else.

You also claim that by firing a laser (particles) at a chunk of iron (matter), that interact through a field (electromagnetism), one can increase mass.
Yes. Ask around elsewhere about this. I'm appalled that the guys here don't have the honesty to say I'm right about this. It's just bog-standard E=mc².

You also claim that heat energy can be responsible for a portion of mass. But mass is a measure of energy content, not heat!
Hellbound, go look it up: "In physics and chemistry, heat is energy transferred from one body to another by thermal interactions.[1][2] The transfer of energy can occur in a variety of ways, among them conduction,[3] radiation,[4] and convection".

Why is it "OK" when particles (photons) interact via a filed (electromagnetism) to be responsible for a portion of the mass, but for Higgs bosons (particles) that interact via a field (Higgs) to be responsible for a portion of the mass?
I'll presume there was a "not" missing from the last bit. Answer: because you can make an electron (and a positron) from photons in gamma-gamma pair production. The mass of the electron is 511keV. The mass of the "Higgs boson" is 125GeV. So the electron mass can't be because of the Higgs boson. Now can it?

Your arguments are inconsistent. There's no reason for your objections to the Higgs not to be extended to any other similar concept. Not that I really expect you to understand any of this, respond honestly, or do anything but the bare assertions you've continued with so far. I suspect you won't dissappoint.
They aren't my arguments. They're Einstein's.
 
What does that have to do with the fact that your grasp of mathematics is hopelessly limited?
My maths isn't hopelessly limited. I've explained maths behind things like SR time dilation which employs the Lorentz factor
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.

Nope, because that never happened. I've repeatedly called you out on your utter inability to do maths beyond what I learned in high school. I've never said anything to you about physics, because I'm not a physicist.
You must be thinking of somebody else mate. And no, you're not a physicist. You don't have to tell me that.

Even if we grant the imaginary scenario where I said what you think I said, and even if the example you're citing was actually an incorrect claim instead of simply another example of your failure to understand maths and physics, my being wrong wouldn't make you right. That's what's called a false dichotomy. You and Bob seem to both be wrong.
No, Bob's wrong and I'm right. Because I'm telling you what Einstein said, and Einstein was right. The mass of a body is the measure of its energy content. It isn't the measure of something else. It isn't the measure of how that body interacts with some kind of "cosmic treacle".

In different ways. Even I can tell that, and as I said, I'm no physicist. I might have had some hope for you until I saw your mind-boggling attempt to assign meaning to a coincidence of numbers that were totally dependent on the unrelated units you happened to be using. That was an error I learned to avoid before I finished high school. (But I didn't call you on that one, because others had already done quite an adequate job of it.)
And I repeat: I'm telling you what Einstein said. Now I suggest you go and read Einstein's E=mc² paper, and pay attention. Here's an excerpt:

The kinetic energy of the body with respect to (ξ ɳ Ϛ) diminishes as a result of the emission of light, and the amount of diminution is independent of the properties of the body. Moreover, the difference K0 − K1, like the kinetic energy of the electron (§ 10), depends on the velocity.

Neglecting magnitudes of fourth and higher orders we may place

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From this equation it directly follows that:—

If a body gives off the energy L in the form of radiation, its mass diminishes by L/c². The fact that the energy withdrawn from the body becomes energy of radiation evidently makes no difference, so that we are led to the more general conclusion that

The mass of a body is a measure of its energy-content; if the energy changes by L, the mass changes in the same sense by L/9 × 10²°, the energy being measured in ergs, and the mass in grammes.
So if a body gives off radiation it loses mass. If a body absorbs radiation it gains mass. So Hellbound's heated chunk of iron gains mass.
 
They aren't my arguments. They're Einstein's.

No, it's a mashup of your misreading of Einstein and your misunderstanding of the Higgs mechanism. You've cartooned up a straw-Higgs mechanism that (indeed) violates conservation of energy, arrogantly assumed it was the real thing, and ignored all explanations to the contrary.
 
It's (probably) some low percentage of the mass of all the matter in the universe, that is true. When it comes to the charged leptons, though, the situation is this: if the Higgs mechanism is an accurate description of nature, as seems increasingly likely as time goes on, then it is responsible for 100% of the rest mass.
And I'm afraid it can't do that without saying Einstein was wrong. He said the mass of a body is a measure of its energy content. Not something else. It's that simple. And after all, where does the mass of the "Higgs boson" itself come from? Duh, the kinetic energy supplied to LHC protons. If you believe the Higgs mechanism is responsible for mass you're effectively walking around wearing a T-shirt like this:E=mc². Or this: m≠E/c². Then you're on Bob's side. You're just another crackpot saying Einstein was wrong.

It's strange that anyone would keep insisting that a theory with Lorentz invariance built in to its very foundations is inconsistent with special relativity. Perhaps it because the Higgs mechanism eliminates the need for certain just-so stories purporting to explain electron mass in terms of self-trapped (or rather, "loopy") photons, but to be fair these loopy photon models were broken in several other ways, as has been recorded elsewhere in these forums.
They've never been broken, and you know it. We know that we can make an electron and a positron from light in pair production, we know that we can diffract an electron, we know it's got a magnetic moment, we know about the Einstein-de Haas effect which “demonstrates that spin angular momentum is indeed of the same nature as the angular momentum of rotating bodies”. We also know that in atomic orbitals electrons "exist as standing waves". And that the electron and the positron have the opposite chirality. We know about the wave nature of matter. And about electron-positron annihilation to gamma photons. Whence it's pretty obvious that the electron and the positron are a couple of radiating bodies losing mass. Only they lose all of it, then they don't exist any more. There's oodles of evidence. What's the evidence for the Higgs boson? Damn statistics and a bump on a graph.

Higgs' theory being disproven would not be enough to save them, not by a long chalk.
The Higgs mechanism is a dead man walking, ct. Because it's going up against E=mc². Guys like me try to steer people away from it or at least revise it so that it's responsible for photon momentum as well as electron mass. You know, where momentum is a measure of how easily you can change the state of motion of a wave moving linearly, and mass is a measure of how easily you can change the state of motion of a standing wave going round and round. But other people just won't listen. It's going to end in tears, and it will not be pretty.

Which makes me wonder, by the way, why don't supporters of fringe/crackpot ideas like Williamson and van der Mark's "toroidal photon" complain about charge conservation as vehemently as they do about Higgs, that being equally fatal for such ideas? Would it be too obviously ridiculous?
There's no problem with charge conservation. The electron and the positron have opposite chiralities. See figure 2 on page 6 of the paper. You just reverse the direction of the arrowheads. Then the positron is a "time reversed electron". It isn't going back in time or anything ridiculous like that, the stress-energy just goes the other way.
 
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No, it's a mashup of your misreading of Einstein and your misunderstanding of the Higgs mechanism.
Garbage. Einstein said the mass of a body is a measure of its energy content. How do you misread that? How on earth do you miss Einstein's reference to the electron as a body, and all the hard scientific evidence as per my post above? And then how do you fall for the mass of a body is a measure of its interaction with magic cosmic treacle ?

I've got a T-shirt for you, ben:

E≠mc²

Wear it with pride, change your name to bob, and then we can talk about why there's so much crackpot physics.
 
Garbage. Einstein said the mass of a body is a measure of its energy content. How do you misread that? How on earth do you miss Einstein's reference to the electron as a body, and all the hard scientific evidence as per my post above? And then how do you fall for the mass of a body is a measure of its interaction with magic cosmic treacle ?

I've got a T-shirt for you, ben:

E≠mc²

Wear it with pride, change your name to bob, and then we can talk about why there's so much crackpot physics.

Well, Einstein did not actually say that:

http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Ives/HerbertIvesDerivation.pdf
 
Farsight, please explain the contradiction between the Higgs mechanism and E=mc2.

So far you've completely failed to do so and have, as far as I can tell, only asserted that there's a contradiction.
 
I find Farsight's views completely unfathomable. It's like he'd have a problem with me saying this:
"I've got this measuring cylinder outside with a ping-pong ball in it. The height of the ping-pong ball is a measure of the cylinder's water content. It's also a measure of how much rain fell since I last emptied it, and if the rain hadn't fallen the ball would be at the bottom of the cylinder."
 
Have you read this article Farsight?


http://www.calphysics.org/articles/newscientist.html

"Some particle physicists claim that a hypothetical particle called the Higgs boson gives mass to subatomic particles such as electrons. Late last year, hints that the Higgs really exists were found at CERN, the European centre for particle physics near Geneva. So, does the Higgs explain weight and inertia? The answer is probably no.

Wait a minute. How can these physicists claim they have discovered the origin of mass when their proposed mechanism fails to explain the very things that make it what it is? Well, as Bill Clinton might say, it all depends on what you mean by mass. When these particle physicists speak of mass, they are not thinking in terms of inertia or weight. Matter is a concentrated form of energy. It can be changed into other forms of energy and other forms of energy can be changed into matter -- an equivalence embodied in Einstein's famous equation E= mc2. So in this sense, the mass of a subatomic particle is a measure of the amount of energy needed to make it. The Higgs can account for that, at least partly (see "Mass delusion" sidebar). "
 

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