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Biblical Flood? Fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru

I beg your pardon, Roger Moore is not a poor substitute for anything.

Apologies, Majesty.

Too hastily were my words chosen and I beg thy mercy.

;)

Some might say he's a poor substitute for Sean Connery...
I couldn't possibly comment, myself.
Don't think of him as a substitute - think of the whole change as a switch to a new universe, like the last Star Trek movie. In one universe, Bond is dark, intense and brooding. In the other, he's charming, suave, and given to the easy double-entendre.
 
Couple of inches per year is the best I can say for those environments. Enough that if you leave a beer can on the coral it'll be significantly encased next year.

Though Correa Neto reminded me of anotherr setting where carbonate is deposited quite rapidly. There are carbonate volcanoes in Africa. What happes is carbonate deposits get subducted and melted, just like any other rock. When it comes up, it's lava--but carbonate lava. They apparently glow brown instead of red. We know this isn't how carbonate throughout the world is deposited (many reef deposits preserve the coral forms), but it's a neat quirk of geology that Creationists never bother to address. The accumulation rate there would be in the feet/year range, where the lava was flowing.

Thanks. Last question. How long to accumulate 400 feet of limestone? :)
 
I'm stealing that. In fact I just have. :)

It's exactly the same as regular limestone. We know this because we can date some coral growths by the production date on the beer cans they've grown around.
Couple of inches per year is the best I can say for those environments. Enough that if you leave a beer can on the coral it'll be significantly encased next year.

Though Correa Neto reminded me of anotherr setting where carbonate is deposited quite rapidly. There are carbonate volcanoes in Africa. What happes is carbonate deposits get subducted and melted, just like any other rock. When it comes up, it's lava--but carbonate lava. They apparently glow brown instead of red. We know this isn't how carbonate throughout the world is deposited (many reef deposits preserve the coral forms), but it's a neat quirk of geology that Creationists never bother to address. The accumulation rate there would be in the feet/year range, where the lava was flowing.
Cool. Sometimes I regret only doing one year of undergrad geology
 
The "age of rocks" versus "age of fossils" question is actually kind of interesting, though not in the way Doc so fervently wishes.

Most fossils are marine. When they died, they sank to the bottom, or they were already on the bottom, so the bottom is obviously older than the fossil (though maybe only by hours). The sediments which cover the fossils are younger than the dead critter, though again, probably not much.

But then, the "bottom" of most oceans is quite mucky, so the dead critters may sink a bit into slightly older sediments. Or, the fossils may be of burrowing critters, meaning they penetrate into even older sediments. But really, all of these differences are inconsequential when dating sedimentary rocks. With rare exceptions, they are all within error bars of being contemporary.

However, there are a few things to remember. First of all, the sediments themselves, unless they are newly extruded volcanic ash, were formed by the breakup of older rocks, so the time of their crystallization may have been a long long time before the became sediment. If you date the sediment particles, they will probably be significantly older than the dead critter.

Secondly, note that sediment is not rock. True, limestone, especially coral, may be a "rock" as soon as it is formed, but this is the exception rather than the rule. These "instant preservation" fossils are some of the highest quality fossils in existence, but they are not as common as other types. For most sediments, the lithification and cementation process may occur thousands or millions of years after the deposition. So it is important, when you are taking your sample for radiometric dating, to know whether you are sampling matrix or cement. And you have to know the source of the cement. Was it formed by recrystallization of the local sediments, or was it carried in years later by groundwater moving through the strata?

And we also have to take into account a process called diagenesis, which is the change of the rocks subsequent to burial. Compositions of rocks can change markedly over the millenia, and indeed, many fossils no longer contain any of the original critter, or even the mold of the critter, but have been completely replaced by other minerals. Most of you who like fossils have probably seen these shiny silicate nauteli or petrified trees. I promise you, few were made of silicates when they were alive.

But the people who have made a career of doing radiocarbon dating are generally knowledgable about these "gotchas" and can usually select careful samples and proper error bars to allow for these differences. It is really a shame that fundamentalists will not allow themselves to see the beauty and complexity of this process, rather than trying to fit all the data into their mythology.
 
Thanks. Last question. How long to accumulate 400 feet of limestone? :)

Depends on the setting. Some areas will produce it fairly rapidly--volcanoes can make 400' of rock in a remarkably short time. For reefs, it'll be much, much slower. For limestone-depositing lagoons, such as where the Silica Shale was deposited, it'll be even longer.

Tricky said:
But then, the "bottom" of most oceans is quite mucky, so the dead critters may sink a bit into slightly older sediments. Or, the fossils may be of burrowing critters, meaning they penetrate into even older sediments. But really, all of these differences are inconsequential when dating sedimentary rocks. With rare exceptions, they are all within error bars of being contemporary.
Time and Space Averagingg. Always a fun thing to try to work around...

If you date the sediment particles, they will probably be significantly older than the dead critter.
Thermoluminescence and optically stimulated luminescence can give you the age of deposition of the sediment (well, technically the age of the sed.'s last exposure to sunlight, but that's the same thing 99% of the time). I don't get the physics of how it works, but the folks at the USGS do, and I've seen the results compared against C14 results. Works best as a pair.

So it is important, when you are taking your sample for radiometric dating, to know whether you are sampling matrix or cement.
How often do people actually do this? Most of them that I know of simply find index fossils tied to volcanic deposits that have been dated (some are IN volcanic deposits, such as tuffs, which is super convenient). I don't recall ever reading a report of radiometric dating of matrix material. I'd wager maniscus cementation (meniscus? I could never spelll that word) would be the easiest to work with here, if the method was used--it's easy to identify.

And we also have to take into account a process called diagenesis,
A process? :D
 
But the people who have made a career of doing radiocarbon dating are generally knowledgable about these "gotchas" and can usually select careful samples and proper error bars to allow for these differences. It is really a shame that fundamentalists will not allow themselves to see the beauty and complexity of this process, rather than trying to fit all the data into their mythology.

Sorry for the double-post, but this reminded me of something. My final for my Isotopic Geochemistry class included the professor handing us a geologic map with some sample sites and a list of dates. We had to tell him the history of the formations. Using the mineral composition, closing temperatures, etc., we were able (well, some of us, anyway--this class drove one person to a mild mental breakdown) to unravel an enormously complex series of events including deposition, multiple episodes of deformation at different temperatures, multiple episodes of intrusion, etc. We got to read the life-history of a mountain range just by being given some basic data. This methodology has ENORMOUS explanetory power, IF you take the time to learn it.

That, I think, is the problem: this stuff isn't intuitive. You've got to work to understand it, and work HARD. That exam took 12 hours to complete. I remember working for 8 hours on a single homework problem. It's incredibly math-intense, and requires a knowledge of multiple academic diciplines (we started with a short introduction to nuclear chemistry and went from there). When someone says "Granite" you need to know what percentage of minerals they're talking about, the closing temperature for the applicable isotope, the effects of decay on that mineral, all of that. And I'm not an expert at it; I only know enough to know if things make basic sense. The real experts would laugh at me calling what I did hard work, given what they have to do on a regular basis.

Most Creationists simply haven't put enough effort in to understand all this, and are innocently duped by the mallicious frauds that control the movement. They think, because it's what they're told, that they understand it adequately. Sadly, nothing could be further from the truth.
 
...Another find was a snake with two legs. This provided a valuable example of evolution at work, illustrating how ancient lizards became modern snakes
If true, this provides evidence that the author of Genesis had supernatural knowledge that snakes at one time had legs.
 
Ever looked at a snake up close? :rolleyes:

RRfoPhW.jpg
 
DOC said:
Were the fossils estimated to be that old or was the material surrounding them estimated to be that old? And who was the person who did the estimating?

DOC, {Carbon} dating is a science...

A relatively young science that has problems.

From the article: Problems with Radiometric and Carbon-14 Dating -- From the website
The California Institute for Ancient Studies

"Are there things that can't be carbon dated?

The method doesn't work on things that didn't get their carbon from the air. This leaves out aquatic creatures since their carbon might originate from dissolved carbonate rocks limestone. This in turn causes problems in dating animals that eat sea food.

We can't date things that are too old. After about 10 half lifes, there is very little C-14 left to measure."

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/carbon14.html
 
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A relatively young science that has some problems.

From the article: Problems with Radiometric and Carbon-14 Dating -- From the website
The California Institute for Ancient Studies

"Are there things that can't be carbon dated?

The method doesn't work on things that didn't get their carbon from the air. This leaves out aquatic creatures since their carbon might originate from dissolved carbonate rocks limestone. This in turn causes problems in dating animals that eat sea food.

We can't date things that are too old. After about 10 half lifes, there is very little C-14 left to measure."

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/carbon14.html

When (in your opinion) did the fludde happen, DOC?
 
DOC said:
A relatively young science that has some problems.
Anything that starts with that is always good for a laugh.

"Are there things that can't be carbon dated?

The method doesn't work on things that didn't get their carbon from the air.
Don't have to look too far to find it, either. You're equivocating between radiometric dating and carbon 14 dating. This is a bigger mistake than calling all vehicles the space shuttle. Ever hear of lead/lead dating? Uranium/Uranium dating? (No, that's not a typo--there are multiple isotopes of uranium.) Strontium dating? Fission track dating? Concordance? There are a LOT more ways to do radiometric dating that simply by using C14.

This leaves out aquatic creatures since their carbon might originate from dissolved carbonate rocks limestone.
Oddly enough, scientists have thought of that. There's a known bias in marine organisms (not due to dissolved limestone, by the way--it's due to lags between generation of C14 in the atmosphere and its absorption into the oceans), and SOP is to present the results, and then the correct results.

We can't date things that are too old. After about 10 half lifes, there is very little C-14 left to measure."
Right--that's when we turn to OTHER dating techniques.

You forgot a big one, DOC: C14 dating needs calibrated. Of course, to even acknowledge that error requires you to acknowledge that we DO calibrate it, and that we've established calibration curves via radiometric dating of varves and tree rings. And that in turn would require you to acknowledge that C14 isn't some mystical black box that no one understands but we use anyway, but rather a carefully studied and well-understood method that has some potential pitfalls, but which is still incredibly useful.

You've also forgotten the posibility of contamination. I've worked with sediments that have been contaminated by "dead" carbon (ie, carbon with no C14 in it). Gives some weird results--the same stratigraphic unit can give different ages, even ages a few hundred thousand years apart, depending on where you sample it! Of course, the mudpot volcanism was a bit of a give-away.

All in all, a disapointing attempt. You can do better.
 
A relatively young science that has problems.

From the article: Problems with Radiometric and Carbon-14 Dating -- From the website
The California Institute for Ancient Studies

"Are there things that can't be carbon dated?

The method doesn't work on things that didn't get their carbon from the air. This leaves out aquatic creatures since their carbon might originate from dissolved carbonate rocks limestone. This in turn causes problems in dating animals that eat sea food.

We can't date things that are too old. After about 10 half lifes, there is very little C-14 left to measure."

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/carbon14.html

Not this again! DOC, 14C dating is subject to calibration. It's considered reliable up to many thousands of years. Nobody dates the age of the Earth from 14C dating, if you are trying to imply that they do.
 
DOC said:
You will notice that the fossils shown in the below link from the mountains of Lebanon look to be in very good shape with the marine life looking fully formed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleontological_sites_of_Lebanon

The link above also says fully formed octopus (which are quite rare in fossil form) were also found:

"An octopus's corpse cannot usually survive long enough to become fossilized, which is why the discovery of well-preserved octopuses in Lebanon in 2009 was remarkable"

Mojo said:
The very next sentence from your link (my emphasis):

Quote:
Dirk Fuchs of the Freie University Berlin said about these 95-million-year-old fossil octopuses found in Lebanon:

"This provides important evolutionary information. The more primitive relatives of octopuses had fleshy fins along their bodies. The new fossils are so well preserved that they show, like living octopus, that they didn't have these structures."

How long ago was the flood, DOC?

Yeah, but from your post we still don't know who is the person who estimated the fossil to be 95 million years old. That part is not footnoted.
 
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