Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[anglolawyer]

If he could escape Italy the story of how he was allowed to help frame the kids would be a much bigger pay day.

It will be interesting to see if he makes it out alive.

The trouble is no one would believe him whatever he says and especially if there is a big pay day involved.

 

[Grinder]

The trouble is no one would believe him whatever he says and especially if there is a big pay day involved.

I don't know. If it involved him staging the break-in because he feared Meredith had mentioned their arrangement I'd believe it.

 

[anglolawyer]

The word 'lamp' does not feature in the book (which I now have). So that theory is still alive and well at least.

 

[Mary_H]

I am highly suspicious about Curatolo's death,and sometime in the future I would expect Rudy to be silenced by the time honoured and proven method

I agree, Billy. As acbytesla and Grinder suggest, people will want his story. The Perugian powers-that-be will have to weigh whether it is worth keeping Rudy on their payroll against the remote possibility he will ever tell the truth.

 

[Mary_H]

The word 'lamp' does not feature in the book (which I now have). So that theory is still alive and well at least.

Thank God.

 

[christianahannah]

I doubt Rudy is ever going to talk and if he does, it will be to parrot the company line. That somehow he got involved with these two crazy homicidal college kids who turned an evening of grass and maybe sex into something far more sinister. It wouldn't even surprise me that Rudy finds a way to get paid for saying this crap to the press.

I don't know if he will or will not talk. So far this hasn't been the case even with him being in court twice. One time there was silence and the second time he gave vague testimony which couldn't be used against anyone.

However, should he somehow find payment for his words, concerning the case, or I guess any other payment with a job, etc. will not some/most/all of this money go to the Kerchers since they won their civil suit against him? I am not certain how this goes about being done but I don't think there would be a judgment given if it could not be enforced.

 

[anglolawyer]

Thank God.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't know if he will or will not talk. So far this hasn't been the case even with him being in court twice. One time there was silence and the second time he gave vague testimony which couldn't be used against anyone.

However, should he somehow find payment for his words, concerning the case, or I guess any other payment with a job, etc. will not some/most/all of this money go to the Kerchers since they won their civil suit against him? I am not certain how this goes about being done but I don't think there would be a judgment given if it could not be enforced.

how do you enforce a judgement when they guy has no money . My guess is that there are ways for him to collect a few dollars on his story, not a lot..but enough to make a difference for an ex-con who was convicted of murder with no marketable skills. Any money he gets will likely to be always be hush hush payments, probably even cash or deposited elsewhere.

I'm curious if Italy will deport him to the country of his birth. I'm under the impression that Rudy is not an Italian citizen. I could be wrong about that, I know he was adopted by a wealthy Italian family who really don't want anything to do with Rudy any more.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't know. If it involved him staging the break-in because he feared Meredith had mentioned their arrangement I'd believe it.

You're hanging on to that chestnut with both hands aren't you Grinder?? LOL.

For the life of me, I don't understand why.

 

[RandyN]

How is a question about the SMS message to Lumumba really relevant? No one certainly believes this was a simple lost in translation issue. Even Italians have a phrase similar to see you later that does not mean see you later, but goodby.

The approach by Lumumba to Amanda Monday morning outside her school is what cooked his goose ....if in fact one considers his goose cooked. I happen to think the police and prosecutor nailed Lumumba because he fit somehow that so far has not been revealed. Lumumba was a bar owner and hung out in the student area. Was he a dealer? Who knows...but what does he do at the students hang out? With kids half his age? No matter....

That police arrest and interrogate and beat and fail to provide a lawyer to Lumumba just as with Knox and RS suggests that Italy has no real laws. Why do those rights violations seem to be ignored? Anyone heard of any official investigation as to why these 3 had their rights so plainly and openly violated?

At what point does someone call Italy onto the carpet for these clear violations?

And sticking with Lumumba a tad longer...who can doubt the police and prosecutor kept Lumumbas bar closed for months in order to control him? They essentially starve him and his family into submission. And sure who could think police and prosecutor would actually do that...but. This case has several parallel stories exactly like that. Toto is one. He ends up dead while in jail. No bells going off about that? Toto lived on the street and was fine (he was actually a fairly less older person than he appeared to be) and yet once inside prison being fed regular meals and sleeping in relative comfort he some how turns up dead. Huh!

Monica...she and her cohorts lied to make a favorable case against her ex-husband...many of these same names appear as signatories to the arrest document of AK and RS...co-incidence or just dumb luck?

I haven't heard of any evidence the police had any reason to suspect a black man...but I bet when Lumumba approached Amanda outside her school that some police person or prosecutor got a boner.

Ill bet my yacht on that one.

 

[anglolawyer]

I agree, Billy. As acbytesla and Grinder suggest, people will want his story. The Perugian powers-that-be will have to weigh whether it is worth keeping Rudy on their payroll against the remote possibility he will ever tell the truth.

How is a question about the SMS message to Lumumba really relevant? No one certainly believes this was a simple lost in translation issue. Even Italians have a phrase similar to see you later that does not mean see you later, but goodby.

The approach by Lumumba to Amanda Monday morning outside her school is what cooked his goose ....if in fact one considers his goose cooked. I happen to think the police and prosecutor nailed Lumumba because he fit somehow that so far has not been revealed. Lumumba was a bar owner and hung out in the student area. Was he a dealer? Who knows...but what does he do at the students hang out? With kids half his age? No matter....

That police arrest and interrogate and beat and fail to provide a lawyer to Lumumba just as with Knox and RS suggests that Italy has no real laws. Why do those rights violations seem to be ignored? Anyone heard of any official investigation as to why these 3 had their rights so plainly and openly violated?

At what point does someone call Italy onto the carpet for these clear violations?

And sticking with Lumumba a tad longer...who can doubt the police and prosecutor kept Lumumbas bar closed for months in order to control him? They essentially starve him and his family into submission. And sure who could think police and prosecutor would actually do that...but. This case has several parallel stories exactly like that. Toto is one. He ends up dead while in jail. No bells going off about that? Toto lived on the street and was fine (he was actually a fairly less older person than he appeared to be) and yet once inside prison being fed regular meals and sleeping in relative comfort he some how turns up dead. Huh!

Monica...she and her cohorts lied to make a favorable case against her ex-husband...many of these same names appear as signatories to the arrest document of AK and RS...co-incidence or just dumb luck?

I haven't heard of any evidence the police had any reason to suspect a black man...but I bet when Lumumba approached Amanda outside her school that some police person or prosecutor got a boner.

Ill bet my yacht on that one.

Well Grinder has mine so he might take you up on it but I won't because I think you are correct, if only gliding over the timing of the exchange of SMSs of which the cops were surely aware and suspicious, as with Patrick's call to her in the questura on the night of 02 Nov. I wonder if, as luck had it, he abstained from calling her after that and, if so, whether this was spotted by the cops and viewed darkly?

I am going through the book. Amanda got a message from Meredith on Hallowe'en which she quotes verbatim, along with the kisses. I believe that one is in the trial record somewhere. How come? Surely she would have deleted it in line with her usual policy or, per my good friend Jackie, surely it would have been overwritten by later incoming messages.

 

[Mary_H]

Well Grinder has mine so he might take you up on it but I won't because I think you are correct, if only gliding over the timing of the exchange of SMSs of which the cops were surely aware and suspicious, as with Patrick's call to her in the questura on the night of 02 Nov. I wonder if, as luck had it, he abstained from calling her after that and, if so, whether this was spotted by the cops and viewed darkly?

I am going through the book. Amanda got a message from Meredith on Hallowe'en which she quotes verbatim, along with the kisses. I believe that one is in the trial record somewhere. How come? Surely she would have deleted it in line with her usual policy or, per my good friend Jackie, surely it would have been overwritten by later incoming messages.

I'm not following this discussion that closely so I shouldn't be replying, but I will anyway, just to straighten myself out. When the police looked at Amanda's phone records, they didn't have the texts of the messages, they only had the numbers and times. If they had had the actual texts, they would not have needed to look at her phone to see them.

They took her phone from her and looked at the sent messages, which showed she had texted Patrick (his name was there). Then they grilled her about Patrick.

Amanda apparently deleted Patrick's text about working (although she did not remember doing it), but did not delete her own or Meredith's texts. This makes sense to me. I delete businesslike texts that I don't care about and save ones that are more important to me at the time (like from friends and family), until I need to make more room.

 

[anglolawyer]

I'm not following this discussion that closely so I shouldn't be replying, but I will anyway, just to straighten myself out. When the police looked at Amanda's phone records, they didn't have the texts of the messages, they only had the numbers and times. If they had had the actual texts, they would not have needed to look at her phone to see them.

They took her phone from her and looked at the sent messages, which showed she had texted Patrick (his name was there). Then they grilled her about Patrick.

Amanda apparently deleted Patrick's text about working (although she did not remember doing it), but did not delete her own or Meredith's texts. This makes sense to me. I delete businesslike texts that I don't care about and save ones that are more important to me at the time (like from friends and family), until I need to make more room.

I agree. You shouldn't be replying

But seriously, I also acknowledge the points you make but I still don't believe Amanda deleted Patrick's text though. Call me perverse if you want.

 

[Mary_H]

I agree. You shouldn't be replying

But seriously, I also acknowledge the points you make but I still don't believe Amanda deleted Patrick's text though. Call me perverse if you want.

With your permission, you're perverse. Then what happened to Patrick's message? And what difference does it make?

 

[anglolawyer]

With your permission, you're perverse. Then what happened to Patrick's message? And what difference does it make?

What I think happened to Patrick's message is the cops deleted it. What difference it would make, if so, would be to cast the integrity of the investigation in a new light, not just as an ass-covering operation after Rudy came on the scene but as a fundamentally corrupt one ab initio. If you haven't already, I recommend you read this excellent article about the deleted text.

 

[RoseMontague]

Sorry to say I missed the interview but I have seen some comments that the Kerchers have said they do not intend to even read Amanda's book. Is that true?

 

[Rolfe]

That's what was said on TV.

The interview seemed to me to be deliberately set up or edited to make it seem ambiguous. Pictures of Amanda looking she-devlish and so on.

Well, at least the politicians are staying out of it. When the biography of Megrahi was published last year, David Cameron went on TV within about half an hour of the launch of the book - way to early for him to have possibly read it - and denounced it as a shocking and appalling insult to the bereaved.

Rolfe.

 

[billyryan]

Sorry to say I missed the interview but I have seen some comments that the Kerchers have said they do not intend to even read Amanda's book. Is that true?

Yes that is correct Rose,Meredith's sister Stephanie said her family is not interested in Amanda's book and will not read it,just watched a reported state that on Sky tv

 

[Chris_Halkides]

ambivalent words

Yes that is correct Rose,Meredith's sister Stephanie said her family is not interested in Amanda's book and will not read it,just watched a reported state that on Sky tv

[URL="http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/04/30/amanda-knox-italy-reactions/2124693/"]USA Today[/URL] mentions this. "Meredith Kercher's sister Stephanie said in a statement Tuesday that her family is not interested in Knox's book and will not read it.

'I have no doubt that there is also a story of pain and loss and enormous mistrust on the other side,' Stephanie Kercher said, referring to Knox. 'But in the end, there is also the hope and the opportunity to live a life — something Meredith will never have and something that we will never share with her.'"

This article goes on to quote an Italian commenter. "'I want to know how Americans believe it was not her,' one commenter wrote. 'Who else would have had any interest in doing it?'" Two words: Rudy Guede.

The USA Today story also quotes Vogt. Business Insider also has an article about the case, mostly relying upon Burleigh's book.

 

[Mary_H]

What I think happened to Patrick's message is the cops deleted it. What difference it would make, if so, would be to cast the integrity of the investigation in a new light, not just as an ass-covering operation after Rudy came on the scene but as a fundamentally corrupt one ab initio. If you haven't already, I recommend you read this excellent article about the deleted text.

Wow, that is an excellent article. WHO is that author?! I want his autograph.

While I am inclined to agree with this author (about almost anything), I must confess I haven't given this matter much research or thought in the past, so I shouldn't comment at this time, but of course I will, though briefly and not in much detail.

I haven't looked at the two "confessions" in awhile, and without looking at them right now, because I'm tired, I will say that it is my understanding that both the 1:45 and the 5:45 statements initially were used by Claudia Matteini and everybody else to reach their conclusions about Amanda and Patrick. In that sense, the 5:45 statement did not supersede the 1:45 statement, nor did it make it disappear.

For example, if Claudia wasn't looking at the 1:45 statement, then why would she state that Amanda had claimed that Patrick had told her the bar would "remain closed" that evening? I think that's the only place that claim appears. According to everything Amanda said OTHER than the 1:45 statement, Patrick didn't tell her the bar would be closed, he just told her it was slow and not to come in. And in fact, he did not close the bar, at least not until 10:00 p.m.

When the cops wrote Amanda's 1:45 statement for her, they stuck the part in there about the bar being closed because they were trying to set up the meeting between Amanda and Patrick. When Claudia talks about the discrepancy between what Amanda said and what Patrick said, she is actually talking about the discrepancy between what the 1:45 statement said and what Patrick said.

I can see why the police would have wanted to delete the message, and they very well may have, in order to make it look like Patrick closed the bar so he could go out and commit murder. But at some point, the cops' and Claudia's approaches seem to have diverged.

As I said, I'm tired, but to me, Claudia seems to be admitting that indeed the bar was open that night. She lends so much more weight to Patrick's claims than to Amanda's that it appears to be much more important to her to say that Amanda lied than to say that Patrick closed the bar.

I don't know how she went about establishing how Patrick went out and committed murder when the bar was open, but I will reread your article and look into it more later.