Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

I would think if the initial responders had thought the burglary was staged they would not have let Filomena into to disturb evidence of any staging. The police photographer would have been told to take pictures of the glass on clothes and pictures of the search for glass under the window. That extensive article I posted at JREF from the very early days of the case seems to imply there were two lines of investigation (something that Kaosium has theorized), one focused as a burglary gone bad, the other on Amanda's involvement. Once they announced case closed the other line of investigation (burglary gone bad) pretty much shut down.

Exactly.

 

[RoseMontague]

I hope this isn't considered to be off topic. I've been in Italy for a month and have spoken to many about this case. I haven't yet found one who believes that AK is innocent, but when pressed, their belief is strengthened, or indeed formed, by the continual, unrelenting criticism of the Italian justice system by Americans.

I would have thought that the pro-innocence case would be best served by non-criticism of, indeed respect for, the Italian justice system. Yet even in this thread you see insults galore. Is this smart? Can't Italy, as an ancient civilisation, and still one of the world's top ten economies, be trusted to run a fair trial? Is continual reference to Italy as a backward and uncivilised country a good idea, even in this forum?

I have a friend on Facebook that speaks out about injustice in the US and even has a website and group protesting several US cases of injustice, most of which I agree are injustices. It turns out she is from Perugia, knows Mignini personally, and refuses to discuss the evidence. She is attending school in the US and has no problem finding fault with our system, but for the Kercher case it is a matter of being Italian.

 

[christianahannah]

I would think if the initial responders had thought the burglary was staged they would not have let Filomena into to disturb evidence of any staging. The police photographer would have been told to take pictures of the glass on clothes and pictures of the search for glass under the window. That extensive article I posted at JREF from the very early days of the case seems to imply there were two lines of investigation (something that Kaosium has theorized), one focused as a burglary gone bad, the other on Amanda's involvement. Once they announced case closed the other line of investigation (burglary gone bad) pretty much shut down.

I guess it depends on the time frame of when one would have thought this was not a normal burglary. This might have happened when Filomena and the officer were checking her room to see if anything was missing. And upon doing so things might have not seemed quite right.

The initial responders were there not to investigate a robbery but rather to return a cell phone - they were then informed of the circumstances in the cottage upon seeing Amanda and Raffaele and more when Filomena arrived.

 

[Grinder]

The article from Corriere della Sera on November 4 fairly well portrays the staging process versus theft gone bad and interjects the theory it may not have been only one person responsible for Meredith's death. I cannot tell if the article is a mix of official response and/or opinion by the author, however, it plays out the case for staging of Filomena's room.This same subject may have been in other Italian papers for that date but I have not searched.

http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/...va_suo_assassino_Trovate_co_9_071104164.shtml

Prior to this date, I believe on November 3, both Sophie Purton and Amanda (and maybe others) had been questioned by the police and the direction of those questions appeared to be towards those who were familiar to Meredith or who had previously visited the cottage.

Thanks. The early reports that I read all pointed to someone she knew had been involved, they specifically mentioned someone from the night before.

I don't remember nor can I find one story that discussed a burglary gone bad. They clearly thought she knew her attacker and by implication the burglary was staged.

Given the quality of the work done, a missing photograph or other work one would expect of quality work means little.

 

[Grinder]

I would think if the initial responders had thought the burglary was staged they would not have let Filomena into to disturb evidence of any staging. The police photographer would have been told to take pictures of the glass on clothes and pictures of the search for glass under the window. That extensive article I posted at JREF from the very early days of the case seems to imply there were two lines of investigation (something that Kaosium has theorized), one focused as a burglary gone bad, the other on Amanda's involvement. Once they announced case closed the other line of investigation (burglary gone bad) pretty much shut down.

I guess it depends on the time frame of when one would have thought this was not a normal burglary. This might have happened when Filomena and the officer were checking her room to see if anything was missing. And upon doing so things might have not seemed quite right.

The initial responders were there not to investigate a robbery but rather to return a cell phone - they were then informed of the circumstances in the cottage upon seeing Amanda and Raffaele and more when Filomena arrived.

You nailed it. This is a PIP doing what the PGP do all the time. The PGP always want AK and RS to remember the night of the murder as if they knew a murder was being committed. Over and over the PGP are amazed that one thing or another happened while Meredith was being attacked or lay dead.

In this case the PP were returning two phones. The kids showed them what they had found, the blood spots and broken window and oh my god, the poo.

Filomena comes and sees the broken window etc. and is asked whether anything is missing. She goes to look which isn't strange for the circumstances. Note she wasn't so freaked out that she screamed at the PP "screw my stuff break down the door." (Anglo that missing quote is pointed out in the Book of Grinder).

It was after it was determined that nothing was missing, not the laptop, not the camera and not her jewelry, that she became exercised and had the door broken down.

It was after the body was discovered that F and the PP began to suspect the burglary was staged. And that is when they should have.

 

[lionking]

I have a friend on Facebook that speaks out about injustice in the US and even has a website and group protesting several US cases of injustice, most of which I agree are injustices. It turns out she is from Perugia, knows Mignini personally, and refuses to discuss the evidence. She is attending school in the US and has no problem finding fault with our system, but for the Kercher case it is a matter of being Italian.

Yes, I can see this. One of our tour guides spoke of the case as we were going through Florence, and said words to the effect that the SC will find the murderer - Rudy seems to have been erased from the picture in Italy. I was talking to another Italian last night ("we know she's guilty" was his opening comment) and spoke about Rudy's conviction. This guy's very intelligent, but was convinced that Lumumba was in jail due Amanda's false evidence. I tried to tell him he was wrong, but he wanted none of it. He did admit that the whole case was now one of national pride.

So, getting back to the point of my earlier post, given the depth of feeling, and the strong likelihood that the case will be decided in the Italian court of public opinion, it simply doesn't seem to be a good idea to relentlessly criticise the Italian prosecutorial and justice system.

 

[Bill Williams]

You nailed it. This is a PIP doing what the PGP do all the time. The PGP always want AK and RS to remember the night of the murder as if they knew a murder was being committed. Over and over the PGP are amazed that one thing or another happened while Meredith was being attacked or lay dead.

In this case the PP were returning two phones. The kids showed them what they had found, the blood spots and broken window and oh my god, the poo.

Filomena comes and sees the broken window etc. and is asked whether anything is missing. She goes to look which isn't strange for the circumstances. Note she wasn't so freaked out that she screamed at the PP "screw my stuff break down the door." (Anglo that missing quote is pointed out in the Book of Grinder).

It was after it was determined that nothing was missing, not the laptop, not the camera and not her jewelry, that she became exercised and had the door broken down.

It was after the body was discovered that F and the PP began to suspect the burglary was staged. And that is when they should have.

Exactly. Before the body discovery the condition of Filomena's room was seen as the act of a stupid burglar.

The only thing I would add is that Filomena wanted the door broken down because she became worried about Meredith being separated from the phones. It was not just that she'd taken care of her own business, THEN told them to break down the door. Filomena was, to me, slowly herself (and the only one) putting two and two together about the mobiles.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes, I can see this. One of our tour guides spoke of the case as we were going through Florence, and said words to the effect that the SC will find the murderer - Rudy seems to have been erased from the picture in Italy. I was talking to another Italian last night ("we know she's guilty" was his opening comment) and spoke about Rudy's conviction. This guy's very intelligent, but was convinced that Lumumba was in jail due Amanda's false evidence. I tried to tell him he was wrong, but he wanted none of it. He did admit that the whole case was now one of national pride.

So, getting back to the point of my earlier post, given the depth of feeling, and the strong likelihood that the case will be decided in the Italian court of public opinion, it simply doesn't seem to be a good idea to relentlessly criticise the Italian prosecutorial and justice system.

I like the idea that just being Italian means you know stuff. I know where Lord Lucan is. I bet Grinder knows who shot JR

 

[Dan O.]

Couldn't find the link please post it again. It has been reported repeatedly that the front door lock did not work properly and needed to be secured with a key. I guess when I see the info on your Wiki it will become clear. I have never encountered a exit door that won't open from the inside without a key even if the deadbolt was thrown. Here it would against code.

Check your PMs for the link.


I view that latch as a fire hazard myself. I believe it was Laura's handyman friend that fixed the washer who also jammed the latch with a wedge of wood. This rendered the normal latch inoperative and required that they use the deadbolt to secure the door. This may have been a misguided attempt to insure that the girls didn't accidentally lock themselves out.

 

[christianahannah]

Yes, I can see this. One of our tour guides spoke of the case as we were going through Florence, and said words to the effect that the SC will find the murderer - Rudy seems to have been erased from the picture in Italy. I was talking to another Italian last night ("we know she's guilty" was his opening comment) and spoke about Rudy's conviction. This guy's very intelligent, but was convinced that Lumumba was in jail due Amanda's false evidence. I tried to tell him he was wrong, but he wanted none of it. He did admit that the whole case was now one of national pride.

So, getting back to the point of my earlier post, given the depth of feeling, and the strong likelihood that the case will be decided in the Italian court of public opinion, it simply doesn't seem to be a good idea to relentlessly criticise the Italian prosecutorial and justice system.

I am confused about the highlighted sentence - do you mean Rudy in jail rather than Lumumba? Or does your Italian friend think that Lumumba is still in prison? Lumumba was in jail for a time due to Amanda's declaration.

I am of the opinion that the case will not be decided by Italian public opinion. I think when it has reached the SC a lot is ruled on by the law presented and argued by both representations (defense and prosecution). Perhaps I am naive in this opinion but so far, this case has done the opposite of what many in the public has said or thought it would do.

As an aside, I have enjoyed the topic of your and your wife's travels. Your photos are wonderful as they give happy memories of times past (and present). I also hope your health is much improved.

 

[lionking]

I am confused about the highlighted sentence - do you mean Rudy in jail rather than Lumumba? Or does your Italian friend think that Lumumba is still in prison? Lumumba was in jail for a time due to Amanda's declaration.

This guy thought Lumumba was still in jail, and didn't know anything of Rudy. Yet he claimed to know about the case.

You may be right about the impact of public opinion. I hope it doesn't play a part, but think it will.

 

[Dan O.]

Here is one of the early reports

"But - according to investigators - the line of investigation is prudent, there are no means for in police custody." Yesterday morning, the magistrate leading the investigation into his office called a Middle East expert. The details of 'murder prosecution suggests to' Islam. "The girl was knifed el 'murderess has covered his private parts before fleeing. Ritual Muslim. Private parts of a woman 's Islam must remain covered even dead. Three knives. Meredith was killed that. Prosecutors yesterday morning has denied the rape. "It could have been a relationship started in a consensual and then degenerate," the investigators mention. But on the girl's body was found the Taglietti, which might indicate a sexual relationship under the threat of a knife blade smooth and short.

This is from the Republica published November 6 and translated with google.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the confusion is not unique to one person

I am confused about the highlighted sentence - do you mean Rudy in jail rather than Lumumba? Or does your Italian friend think that Lumumba is still in prison? Lumumba was in jail for a time due to Amanda's declaration.

I had a discussion with a colleague who had discussed the case with someone else. That someone else appeared to be confusing Lumumba with Guede, saying words to the effect that the black guy was innocent. Therefore, I am not wholly surprised that other people are also confused about the guilt or innocence of the person actually in prison now (Guede).

 

[Grinder]

Exactly. Before the body discovery the condition of Filomena's room was seen as the act of a stupid burglar.

The only thing I would add is that Filomena wanted the door broken down because she became worried about Meredith being separated from the phones. It was not just that she'd taken care of her own business, THEN told them to break down the door. Filomena was, to me, slowly herself (and the only one) putting two and two together about the mobiles.

Bill, Filomena knew about the phones before she checked her room.

 

[Grinder]

I like the idea that just being Italian means you know stuff. I know where Lord Lucan is. I bet Grinder knows who shot JR

JR no but JFK...

 

[Grinder]

Check your PMs for the link.

I view that latch as a fire hazard myself. I believe it was Laura's handyman friend that fixed the washer who also jammed the latch with a wedge of wood. This rendered the normal latch inoperative and required that they use the deadbolt to secure the door. This may have been a misguided attempt to insure that the girls didn't accidentally lock themselves out.

Thanks and thanks.

Wouldn't that mean that Rudi would assume he could open the door from the inside? That was the issue Anglo brought up as a reason Rudi didn't take stuff because he would have to get it through the window.

 

[anglolawyer]

Thanks and thanks.

Wouldn't that mean that Rudi would assume he could open the door from the inside? That was the issue Anglo brought up as a reason Rudi didn't take stuff because he would have to get it through the window.

He could easily have checked the door. It would take two seconds and then he would know not to waste time with lap tops (which sell for a fortune in Milan) of which he had a choice of at least three. Dunno whether Laura had one.

 

[Bill Williams]

Exactly. Before the body discovery the condition of Filomena's room was seen as the act of a stupid burglar.

The only thing I would add is that Filomena wanted the door broken down because she became worried about Meredith being separated from the phones. It was not just that she'd taken care of her own business, THEN told them to break down the door. Filomena was, to me, slowly herself (and the only one) putting two and two together about the mobiles.

Bill, Filomena knew about the phones before she checked her room.

Then it becomes a matter of her own personal testimony, about when she finally put 2 + 2 together. No one else did... if she put 2 + 2 together, but first checked her own room that's one thing. If it took her a couple of minutes before starting to argue with the postal police about breaking down the door, that's another.

The bigger point here, is that no one thought this scene as confusing as it was (for everyone, including Amanda who first found it, including Raffaele and the postal police) signalled murder.

Before the door was broken down it was just a confusing scene. And the best that Battistelli could do, if you believe he said it at the time (in situ!) is say, "This is no burglary." And he was right! It's just that this does not mean that it was a staged break-in.

Unless one wants to somehow besmirch Filomena, which there is no real need to do, what matters is that she and she alone, apparently, put 2 + 2 together. And she met resistence - not from Raffaele and Amanda - but from the ranking authorities at the scene.

 

[Kestrel]

He could easily have checked the door. It would take two seconds and then he would know not to waste time with lap tops (which sell for a fortune in Milan) of which he had a choice of at least three. Dunno whether Laura had one.

Meredith had almost certainly locked the door when she left to have dinner with his friends. For Rudy had checked the door to see if he could get out, he would have to leave Filomena's room to do so. And if he found it locked, he would know he had to leave via the window. Even if he planned to steal Filomena's laptop and climbing out via the window, why not pick it up on the way out of the apartment?

 

[Grinder]

He could easily have checked the door. It would take two seconds and then he would know not to waste time with lap tops (which sell for a fortune in Milan) of which he had a choice of at least three. Dunno whether Laura had one.

Dear Anglo, he could have drilled a hole in his knee and planted carrots as well.

There was no reason to check the door because doors open from the inside without a key. This door as Dan O pointed out was different because someone had altered it.

It has never occurred to me to check a door to see if I could get out of the house. Granted I have never been in Rudi's alleged situation.

A burglar breaks in and quickly assesses the situation in the room and perhaps other rooms. Perhaps Meredith comes in just then. But I see no reason that if she didn't, that he wouldn't start putting things into a pillow case or better a suitcase.