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rcronk said:
Perhaps God doesn't feed the hungry because He commanded us to do it. I believe He doesn't do for us what we can and should learn to do for ourselves (i.e. feed the hungry, etc.). I believe He wants us to learn and progress toward selflessness. Is that an acceptable alternative to the false dichotomy presented here?
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So, let me get this straight, you see a drowning child, you are the only one who can help, do you feel a moral responsibility?

There are children who die daily from deadly viruses, starvation, the elements, etc. and only god is in a position to help those children today. But he feels no moral responsibility?

Tell me honestly, have you ever prayed for something like lost keys and honestly believed god helped you find them? Why would god help you with your keys and not a child suffering parasites in a 3rd world?
 
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rcronk said:
Why don't you or I feed that child? I think you missed the entire point of my post. That child is starving because of selfishness and corruption of people. You and I can feed that child. So why don't we? Because we're selfish. I believe that our purpose here is to progress into better people and if God fed that child instead of us feeding the child, He'd be treating the symptom (hunger) instead of the cause (selfishness).
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Humans cannot stop deadly predators, viruses, bacteria, etc.. So, do you honestly believe that prayer is worthless? You don't believe god cares enough about our suffering to ever intervenes in the lives of those who are suffering (Matthew 10:29). You think god's attitude is "help that child or I'm going to sit here and watch it suffer"?

Matthew 10:29 said:
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
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Are those children praying to the wrong god? What the hell is going on here? A promise of help was given, why doesn't god keep the promise?

The Riddle of Epicurus said:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
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Madouc said:
We don't have magical powers to instantly alleviate suffering.
rcronk said:
It doesn't take magical powers. It takes money, time, and effort.
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Or, according to your holy book, it takes magical powers (see manna from heaven Exodus 16) Starvation in 3rd world nations is largely a function of politics (see Black Hawk Down). God could soften the hearts of those who prevent us from properly feeding those who are starving but he doesn't get around to it.

But the next time you lose your wallet or keys remember that god counts every sparrow that falls. He'll help you just not starving children. He will cure you of your cold but will never regrow a child's limb lost to a land mine.
 
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RandFan said:
Or, according to your holy book, it takes magical powers (see manna from heaven Exodus 16) Starvation in 3rd world nations is largely a function of politics (see Black Hawk Down). God could soften the hearts of those who prevent us from properly feeding those who are starving but he doesn't get around to it.
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Maybe God's the one who hardened their hearts in the first place like he did in Exodus 9, prince that he is. Sounds just like him.
 
zooterkin said:
Janadele said:
The veil which obscures knowledge and recall of your pre mortal existence is an integral part of the mortal trial you are at present undertaking.
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And why does this veil not prevent you from knowing this too ?
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'Tis a good question, but I'll bet the answer is something really trite like "The Grand Wizards of the LDS are all blessed with Veil-o-Vision™ and are thus able to instruct the rest of the flock about the Great Mysteries™"
 
RandFan said:
Or, according to your holy book, it takes magical powers (see manna from heaven Exodus 16) Starvation in 3rd world nations is largely a function of politics (see Black Hawk Down). God could soften the hearts of those who prevent us from properly feeding those who are starving but he doesn't get around to it.

But the next time you lose your wallet or keys remember that god counts every sparrow that falls. He'll help you just not starving children. He will cure you of your cold but will never regrow a child's limb lost to a land mine.
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I believe our eternal progression is more important than our temporary trials. I personally have been through difficult trials and have progressed in patience, empathy, and in many other ways. And now that my trials are over, I can say that the temporary trial was worth the progress I made and I get to keep that progress forever. I also believe that God's purpose is to help all of us achieve the maximum amount of eternal progression that we can while we're here. I've experienced consequences for my choices here that have taught me a lot and if those consequences had been "mercifully" taken away, I'd end up not progressing in the long run in exchange for some temporary relief. Someone starving is the result of political corruption, selfishness, etc. If I hit my thumb with a hammer and God makes it not hurt, what have I learned? And if I hurt someone else or let them starve, what justification does God have to give consequences for my choices if He feeds that person for me or causes the hurt of that person to cease instantly? If you don't like tornados or earthquakes, don't live where they happen. If you are too poor or enslaved to move elsewhere, why is that? Is it the result of a tyrannical government or poor choices made by people or their parents or grandparents? My father had cancer and luckily it is in remission because of choices made by people studying cancer treatments - and going through that difficult trial has changed him for the better in lasting ways. I watched a documentary about a woman who had no legs and she is a much better person than I am in so many ways simply because she has had the trial of having no legs and she has and amazing attitude toward life. A lot of lasting good can come out of trials and consequences of poor choices just like good can come from good choices. When this life is over, I believe we'll look back and be thankful for the experiences we had here - bad and good - and how those experiences - bad and good - changed us for the better and at that point, the trials will be over and gone but the progression will have remained. So I believe that God sees and values the more lasting effects than the immediate trials we bear and in that sense, He's doing what's best for us in the long run by letting us be exposed to the consequences of our choices and the choices of others and even things that are outside of our control.
 
Well, there's your answer. Being maimed in a land mine or starving to death due to natural disasters is exactly what those little bastards needed. They'll learn better next time.
 
If there were a god, he would have to be compassionate and available all the time, no if, and's, or but's.

I would expect god to be responsible for his actions, and I don't mean after we are dead. I mean here and now.

As it looks right now, in reality, there is no god at all, we are the responsible party. No god involved at all.
 
rcronk said:
I believe our eternal progression is more important than our temporary trials. I personally have been through difficult trials and have progressed in patience, empathy, and in many other ways. And now that my trials are over, I can say that the temporary trial was worth the progress I made and I get to keep that progress forever. I also believe that God's purpose is to help all of us achieve the maximum amount of eternal progression that we can while we're here. I've experienced consequences for my choices here that have taught me a lot and if those consequences had been "mercifully" taken away, I'd end up not progressing in the long run in exchange for some temporary relief. Someone starving is the result of political corruption, selfishness, etc. If I hit my thumb with a hammer and God makes it not hurt, what have I learned? And if I hurt someone else or let them starve, what justification does God have to give consequences for my choices if He feeds that person for me or causes the hurt of that person to cease instantly? If you don't like tornados or earthquakes, don't live where they happen. If you are too poor or enslaved to move elsewhere, why is that? Is it the result of a tyrannical government or poor choices made by people or their parents or grandparents? My father had cancer and luckily it is in remission because of choices made by people studying cancer treatments - and going through that difficult trial has changed him for the better in lasting ways. I watched a documentary about a woman who had no legs and she is a much better person than I am in so many ways simply because she has had the trial of having no legs and she has and amazing attitude toward life. A lot of lasting good can come out of trials and consequences of poor choices just like good can come from good choices. When this life is over, I believe we'll look back and be thankful for the experiences we had here - bad and good - and how those experiences - bad and good - changed us for the better and at that point, the trials will be over and gone but the progression will have remained. So I believe that God sees and values the more lasting effects than the immediate trials we bear and in that sense, He's doing what's best for us in the long run by letting us be exposed to the consequences of our choices and the choices of others and even things that are outside of our control.
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So the result is the same as if no gods existed at all.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
Well, there's your answer. Being maimed in a land mine or starving to death due to natural disasters is exactly what those little bastards needed. They'll learn better next time.
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It would be the people responsible for the land mine or the starvation that would learn and be punished for their actions, not that the victim deserves it. That was a bit disingenuous of you to twist my words and suggest that is what I was trying to convey.
 
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rcronk said:
Why don't you or I feed that child? I think you missed the entire point of my post. That child is starving because of selfishness and corruption of people. You and I can feed that child. So why don't we? Because we're selfish. I believe that our purpose here is to progress into better people and if God fed that child instead of us feeding the child, He'd be treating the symptom (hunger) instead of the cause (selfishness).
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Forget starvation, what about the children who suffer and die from cancer and other horrible diseases?
Are you going to say they suffer and die because we're selfish?
 
GT/CS said:
Forget starvation, what about the children who suffer and die from cancer and other horrible diseases?
Are you going to say they suffer and die because we're selfish?
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See my subsequent post that discusses these other topics.
 
rcronk said:
It would be the people responsible for the land mine or the starvation that would learn and be punished for their actions, not that the victim deserves it. That was a bit disingenuous of you to twist my words and suggest that is what I was trying to convey.
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People did not remove the land mine, they are responsible.
Your god did not remove the land mine, he is responsible.

People put the land mine there, they are responsible.
Your god sent the natural disaster, he is responsible.

I am not twisting your words. If your god is omniscient and omnipotent, he must have some share in responsibility for what occurs in his domain. If he also is in charge of natural disasters, he is directly responsible for the suffering those disasters cause.

You have to twist your own words to give him credit for causing "good" suffering, yet hold him blameless for the bad.
 
rcronk said:
I believe our eternal progression is more important than our temporary trials.
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What about those whose "temporary trials" are so intolerable they commit suicide? How have they progressed?

The cousin of a friend of mind had a daughter who was born blind and deaf. The only time she stopped crying was when someone was touching her, but obviously her parents couldn't be touching her all the time so they mostly just let her cry. I say they but her husband couldn't deal with it and left when the daughter was 5, leaving the mother to cope on her own. The daughter eventually died in her early twenties.

How did this "temporary trial" help the mother progress? How did it help the father progress? How, in the name of all that's holy, did it help the daughter progress?
 
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Beelzebuddy said:
People did not remove the land mine, they are responsible.
Your god did not remove the land mine, he is responsible.

People put the land mine there, they are responsible.
Your god sent the natural disaster, he is responsible.

I am not twisting your words. If your god is omniscient and omnipotent, he must have some share in responsibility for what occurs in his domain. If he also is in charge of natural disasters, he is directly responsible for the suffering those disasters cause.

You have to twist your own words to give him credit for causing "good" suffering, yet hold him blameless for the bad.
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Fair enough - I understand your point and it's logical. However, the more He interferes with our agency and choices, the less of a reason we have for being here. I believe we are here to make choices, experience consequences, an learn from those consequences. I believe that if He's constantly meddling and obstructing people's bad choices, He's defeating the purpose and slowing our progress. If He does everything for us, we might as well not be here. I think agency, consequences, and eternal progression trump temporary comfort. And that's a difficult position for me to defend if others only look at the short term effects or don't believe in an afterlife.
 
rcronk said:
I believe our eternal progression is more important than our temporary trials. I personally have been through difficult trials and have progressed in patience, empathy, and in many other ways.

*snip for brevity*
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You progressed from your suffering because you survived your suffering. How is that starving child supposed to progress when he succumbs to his lack of food, lack of water, and lack of medical care? He can't progress. He is dead. He suffered every day of his short life, and then he died. You believe your god could have saved him, but he chose not to, so the rest of us could progress. Your god is a monster.
 
rcronk said:
This isn't proof or evidence one way or the other in my opinion.
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Absolutely. It isn't proof that The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe and was destroyed in making it. We have no evidence that The Flying Spaghetti Monster has ever regrown an amputated limb so that is good evidence that the creator of the universe (The Flying Spaghetti Monster) was destroyed in making it. The universe behaves exactly the same as if The Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.
 
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