How To Use Bitcoin – The Most Important Creation In The History Of Man

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So what is a reasonable surcharge to accept bitcoins say a 50% increase in price?
Probably not unless you think that they are more likely to lose value than to gain value. I suppose one could buy insurance though if one wants to eliminate that risk, and the reasonable surcharge would be equal to the insurance premium.
 
Out of curiosity, is there anyone in this thread using Bitcoin as anything other than a speculation vehicle? I hear a lot about "running businesses" but I'm curious if anyone in here is actually trying to use Bitcoin that way, as well as if anyone in here has actually run a non-Internet business?

I'll start. No and no.
The best way to satisfy one's curiosity is to actually look for things with your own eyes. It's also the best way to learn. This very issue was addressed very recently in this thread. You clearly haven't paid even the slightest bit of attention.
 
remirol said:
The speculation-based volatility of Bitcoin has no effect on its utility-based value, and the utility-based value is what will cause it to grow in acceptance, and that growth in acceptance will disperse the market and thus decrease the volatility over time.
Wrong.
EGarrett said:
Why don't you try making an actual argument instead of bald-assertions? It would make you look less like you're making things up to suit a sub-rational bias.

:id:

If you were following the discussion, you would understand that in fact, the speculative volatility of Bitcoin is the primary and possibly the only thing hindering its utility right now. You would have seen the conversation between myself, psionl0, and a couple others with regard to just what the practical problems are with starting a business around Bitcoin, or trying to adapt an existing business to use Bitcoin on the side. You would have also seen the conversation about how the numbers have tipped such that starting a new mining operation now requires a significant investment with no guarantee of sufficient RTI to make it worthwhile (big red flag IMO), so now the only way "into" Bitcoin is to throw real money at it and hope it doesn't go splat.

Complaining at this point because I corrected your bald-faced assertion is... well... sort of amusing since I'm not _supposed_ to be the Bitcoin expert here. But you (who pompously inflate yourself at every turn with regard to a number of issues) don't appear to even understand the basic obstacle standing in the way of Bitcoin's wider acceptance, and in fact will directly declare it doesn't exist?

FYI, that emperor of yours is naked.

The best way to satisfy one's curiosity is to actually look for things with your own eyes. It's also the best way to learn. This very issue was addressed very recently in this thread. You clearly haven't paid even the slightest bit of attention.

I'll take that as a "no" and a "no" from you as well.
 
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:eusa_sick: ...(must)...(not)...(ask)...(who's)...(eyes)...(to)...(trust)...

"Just close your eyes and fall backwards." :D

In reality I suspect that trusting eyes at all would be a bad move; hence the reason I'm curious if anyone is currently not-speculating with Bitcoin, because someone _actually running a BTC business_ will be able to explain quite handily how they overcame the obvious limitations, as well as how their world looks day-to-day. Not sure we have any of those, but you never know, sometimes the lurkers come out when you ask.
 
someone _actually running a BTC business_ will be able to explain quite handily how they overcame the obvious limitations, as well as how their world looks day-to-day.
Yes, that would be interesting but could you trust anybody who responds in the affirmative any more than you trust mhaze or EGarrett?
 
Yes, that would be interesting but could you trust anybody who responds in the affirmative any more than you trust mhaze or EGarrett?

I could, indeed, because I could ask them "Where's its web presence so we can go all have a look at it?" and get an actual answer. :)

ETA: I suppose it's possible that someone could be doing BTC transactions storefront-only with no web presence, but that strikes me as one of those "see foot, shoot foot" scenarios given the nature of BTC.

The lack of trust for mhaze is based on observations of his behavior in other subforums over the past few years -- in short, he'll say anything at all at any time in order to support a flagging case, or to avoid having to admit he was wrong. (for example, does anyone think he really ordered a pizza during that last exchange? Yeah, me either, but you can see that he's now emotionally invested in it and can't let go, even when I made a valid challenge to his claim about PJs/PizzaHut/Dominos.)
 
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:id:

If you were following the discussion, you would understand that in fact, the speculative volatility of Bitcoin is the primary and possibly the only thing hindering its utility right now. You would have seen the conversation between myself, psionl0, and a couple others with regard to just what the practical problems are with starting a business around Bitcoin, or trying to adapt an existing business to use Bitcoin on the side.
So far nothing but bald assertions...and psionl doesn't share your views. So keep going.

EDIT: Oh, and your "Iron-E Meter" is cute because it indicates that you didn't read basically any of the previous posts where I explained exactly the reasoning behind what I said.

You would have also seen the conversation about how the numbers have tipped such that starting a new mining operation now requires a significant investment with no guarantee of sufficient RTI to make it worthwhile (big red flag IMO), so now the only way "into" Bitcoin is to throw real money at it and hope it doesn't go splat.
You don't "get into Bitcoin," speculation does not create real growth in a product or service, utility does, and the long-term viability of Bitcoin is not from exchanging money for it, it's from its ability to facilitate trades of goods and services...to which the volatility is a negligible factor due to the divisibility and the presence of instant speed middleman-style processors.

Complaining at this point because I corrected your bald-faced assertion is... well... sort of amusing since I'm not _supposed_ to be the Bitcoin expert here.
Good because you sure aren't.

But you (who pompously inflate yourself at every turn with regard to a number of issues) don't appear to even understand the basic obstacle standing in the way of Bitcoin's wider acceptance, and in fact will directly declare it doesn't exist?
If you don't pay attention then I will tell you that you didn't, that's what happens when you make people repeat themselves endlessly.

Now, do you have a real reason that the volatility will stop Bitcoin from performing its real purpose of facilitating trades? I'd love to see a realistic scenario where a malicious speculator could shift the price so dramatically and so quickly that he ruins automated transaction processing services and in the process doesn't quickly bankrupt himself due to the sheer amount of selling below market value and/or buying above it that he'd have to do on a large-scale in a billion dollar market.

I'll take that as a "no" and a "no" from you as well.
Really? So what am I referencing then, and why didn't you just address it instead of asking that question as though it wasn't there?
 
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You don't "get into Bitcoin,"

You do right now, with the price going up and down like a yo-yo on a roller coaster. Bitcoin is not currently a viable currency, but instead a speculative commodity.

and the long-term viability of Bitcoin is not from exchanging money for it, it's from its ability to facilitate trades of goods and services...to which the volatility is a negligible factor due to the divisibility and the presence of instant speed middleman-style processors.
Filling a paragraph with buzzwords is a red flag of a different kind; not to mention that it doesn't address the original point, which is that the volatility _is_ the obstacle... which is being demonstrated as we speak by the number of common things you _cannot_ do with bitcoin, because the people who provide those goods and services will not _accept_ bitcoin... because of the volatility.

Now, do you have a real reason that the volatility will stop Bitcoin from performing its real purpose of facilitating trades?
Other than "it's doing so right now?". Hence my l'il straw poll about "is anyone doing anything OTHER than speculating in Bitcoin right now?" Which is producing mostly the expected answers -- even the people who have run businesses aren't jumping on board the Bitcoin train in any other way, and there's an extensive pile of very obvious reasons why. See actual discussion.
 
:eusa_sick: ...(must)...(not)...(ask)...(who's)...(eyes)...(to)...(trust)...

Do I have to spell it out ? Science and skepticism have shown that personal experience and testimony is unreliable because we have a tendency to confirm our own preconceptions. So I prefer trusting data and numbers, even if it "feels" wrong to me.
 
You do right now, with the price going up and down like a yo-yo on a roller coaster. Bitcoin is not currently a viable currency, but instead a speculative commodity.
And what does the speculation have to do with its long-term viability?

Filling a paragraph with buzzwords is a red flag of a different kind;
Yes, that you aren't following the meaning of actual terms and would rather handwave them away then pay attention. Address what I just told you.

not to mention that it doesn't address the original point, which is that the volatility _is_ the obstacle... which is being demonstrated as we speak by the number of common things you _cannot_ do with bitcoin, because the people who provide those goods and services will not _accept_ bitcoin... because of the volatility.
Do you even know what my argument is?

Other than "it's doing so right now?". Hence my l'il straw poll about "is anyone doing anything OTHER than speculating in Bitcoin right now?" Which is producing mostly the expected answers -- even the people who have run businesses aren't jumping on board the Bitcoin train in any other way, and there's an extensive pile of very obvious reasons why. See actual discussion.
Yup, you just confirmed that you haven't paid any attention. So don't complain when I tell you that you haven't.
 
Do I have to spell it out ? Science and skepticism have shown that personal experience and testimony is unreliable because we have a tendency to confirm our own preconceptions. So I prefer trusting data and numbers, even if it "feels" wrong to me.
And how do you view that data and those numbers?
 
I hear a lot about "running businesses" but I'm curious if anyone in here is actually trying to use Bitcoin that way, as well as if anyone in here has actually run a non-Internet business?
I could, indeed, because I could ask them "Where's its web presence so we can go all have a look at it?" and get an actual answer. :)
If you are asking someone who runs a "non-internet business" for its "web presence" you might just draw a few blanks. ;)

ETA: I suppose it's possible that someone could be doing BTC transactions storefront-only with no web presence, but that strikes me as one of those "see foot, shoot foot" scenarios given the nature of BTC.
Are you ignoring some responses of mine that deal with that question?

-- in short, he'll say anything at all at any time in order to support a flagging case, or to avoid having to admit he was wrong.
Hmmmm
 
And what does the speculation have to do with its long-term viability?

remirol said:
If you were following the discussion, you would understand that in fact, the speculative volatility of Bitcoin is the primary and possibly the only thing hindering its utility right now. You would have seen the conversation between myself, psionl0, and a couple others with regard to just what the practical problems are with starting a business around Bitcoin, or trying to adapt an existing business to use Bitcoin on the side. You would have also seen the conversation about how the numbers have tipped such that starting a new mining operation now requires a significant investment with no guarantee of sufficient RTI to make it worthwhile (big red flag IMO), so now the only way "into" Bitcoin is to throw real money at it and hope it doesn't go splat.

HTH

Yes, that you aren't following the meaning of actual terms and would rather handwave them away then pay attention. Address what I just told you.
As I just noted, you didn't say anything; you just filled a paragraph with buzzwords.

Also, I don't respond to dictates from Internet weenies; if you want to continue this conversation with me, you will immediately moderate your tone. Until you do so, this non-discussion is concluded; I will continue to respond and debunk your noise as I see fit, but I see no reason to actually _engage_ with you since you are clearly more interested in puffing up your own ego and chest-beating rather than actually explain why Bitcoin might be a good thing at all. As I said to mhaze, you need to take a page from psionl0's book. Right now all you've convinced me of is that Bitcoin attracts gold bugs like moths to a flame.
 
If you are asking someone who runs a "non-internet business" for its "web presence" you might just draw a few blanks. ;)

By non-internet business I mean "a business which has a storefront and live customers, not one that exists solely on the Internet to sell Internet-based products and services", not "a business which avoids the Internet".

Pizza Hut is an excellent example of what I'm talking about -- they have a web presence but it does nothing but facilitate what is essentially a non-Internet purchase.

remirol said:
ETA: I suppose it's possible that someone could be doing BTC transactions storefront-only with no web presence, but that strikes me as one of those "see foot, shoot foot" scenarios given the nature of BTC.
Are you ignoring some responses of mine that deal with that question?

...er, I didn't ask a question there?
 
[baleeted for the moment; conf call + talk not possible, will fix in a few]
 
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