Biblical Flood? Fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru

[GeneMachine]

Under present conditions yes, but present conditions would not have existed with the earth covered with water and fountains of the deep (as the bible calls them) shooting out water---possibly the same water that came from the previous time the earth was covered with water as some scientists mention here:

DOC, even if we go with your hypothesis that the plates were lubricated by the "fountains of the deep", there remains some minor problems. You are aware that the continental plates do not swim around like croutons on a soup? They are subducted under each other where they move towards each other, and they get ripped apart in places where they move away from each other.

On of the latter places is the Atlantic. We see the results of this ripping apart on Iceland - quakes, volcanoes. Iceland, however, is just a tiny visible part of this - a suboceanic ridge spanning the whole Atlantic in roughly N-S-direction, the Midatlantic Ridge. We have been there, seen it from submarines.

Now imagine the American and European plates getting ripped apart at a km per year speed after your proposed flood. Massive amounts of lava would emerge from the result rift, creating a flood basalt province the size of the whole Atlantic. That is an extinction scale event so massive that your flood is a warm springtime rain compared to it.

Just close your eyes and imagine it. Thousands and thousands of cubic kilometers of lava spewing from a crack in the earth spanning from pole to pole. Massive amounts of gases and ash thrown into the stratosphere. Your poor survivors stumble upon the devastated muddy surface, desperately scavenging for not-completely rotten carcasses, all under an overcast sky blotting out the sun, while acid rain and toxic ash rains upon them. When the sun comes through, it is no blessing, though, for the volcanic gases have destroyed the ozone layer. Your god's victims stumble on, their eyes burnt by UV radiation, coughing up blood from ash and SO₂ inhalation, towards their death on that godforsaken mudplain.

That's how your proposed scenario would look, even without the earthquakes.

 

[DOC]

...and modern humans have been around for the past 200,000 years.

Here is one opinion on your statement.

The below excerpt from a scientist is just 3 weeks old and contains the very latest science:

When Did Mitochondrial Eve and Y Chromosomal Adam Live?
April 4, 2013
By Dr. Fazale Rana

"...There is no real reason to think that the dates for mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosomal Adam conflict with the biblical account of human origins. In effect, Scripture is silent about when God created Adam and Eve—just as it’s silent about when God created the earth. Though some people are tempted to use the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 to calculate the time of Adam and Eve’s creation (usually resulting in a date about 6,000 years ago), the best scholarship rejects this approach.

Many biblical scholars point out that these genealogies are theological constructs. The author never intended them to be used to calculate or estimate the date for human origins. Instead, these lists are communicating key theological points, highlighting patriarchs of importance in the lineage of Adam to Noah and Noah to Abraham, respectively..."

http://www.reasons.org/articles/when-did-mitochondrial-eve-and-y-chromosomal-adam-live

He goes on to say at the end of the article: "The scientific and biblical stories of human origins harmonize quite well."

 

[zooterkin]

Here is one opinion on your statement.

The below excerpt from a scientist is just 3 weeks old and contains the very latest science:

When Did Mitochondrial Eve and Y Chromosomal Adam Live?
April 4, 2013
By Dr. Fazale Rana

"...There is no real reason to think that the dates for mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosomal Adam conflict with the biblical account of human origins. In effect, Scripture is silent about when God created Adam and Eve—just as it’s silent about when God created the earth. Though some people are tempted to use the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 to calculate the time of Adam and Eve’s creation (usually resulting in a date about 6,000 years ago), the best scholarship rejects this approach.

Many biblical scholars point out that these genealogies are theological constructs. The author never intended them to be used to calculate or estimate the date for human origins. Instead, these lists are communicating key theological points, highlighting patriarchs of importance in the lineage of Adam to Noah and Noah to Abraham, respectively..."

http://www.reasons.org/articles/when-did-mitochondrial-eve-and-y-chromosomal-adam-live

He goes on to say at the end of the article: "The scientific and biblical stories of human origins harmonize quite well."

Tell us, DOC, what do you believe? How long ago did the Earth form, and how long has there been life on it? How long has there been a species recognisable as human?

 

[pakeha]

DOC, are you now saying the bible isn't literally true?

 

[Tolls]

Apart from the fact that neither Mitochondrial Eve nor Y Chromosomal Adam were the only people around at the time they lived (there were several thousand people in each case), and they lived at the minimum about 50,000 years apart.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

He goes on to say at the end of the article: "The scientific and biblical stories of human origins harmonize quite well."

Which is, of course, quite absurd.

 

[joobz]

Many biblical scholars point out that these genealogies are theological constructs. The author never intended them to be used to calculate or estimate the date for human origins.

"Theological construct" is a nice way of saying "completely made up fictional story."

Funny enough, I agree with that position. The bible does contain a lot of completely made up fictional stories (aka theological constructs). Some teach good things(love thy neighbor, take care of the less fortunate) and some teach horrible things (slavery is acceptable, kill homosexuals, women are property, genocide is acceptable in some settings). This is why the bible is not a very useful source of moral guidance.

Was this the point you were trying to make? Because that is the point you helped make.

 

[Craig B]

Here is one opinion on your statement.

When Did Mitochondrial Eve and Y Chromosomal Adam Live?
April 4, 2013
By Dr. Fazale Rana

"...There is no real reason to think that the dates for mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosomal Adam conflict with the biblical account of human origins. In effect, Scripture is silent about when God created Adam and Eve—just as it’s silent about when God created the earth. Though some people are tempted to use the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 to calculate the time of Adam and Eve’s creation (usually resulting in a date about 6,000 years ago), the best scholarship rejects this approach ... He goes on to say at the end of the article: "The scientific and biblical stories of human origins harmonize quite well."

DOC, mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosome Adam would be the LATEST common human ancestors, according to scientific definition. If the Book of Genesis was true, which it is not: but anyway, if it was true, who would these people be, in that story, and why? Would they be the Adam and Eve of Genesis 2?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

DOC, mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosome Adam would be the LATEST common human ancestors, according to scientific definition. If the Book of Genesis was true, which it is not: but anyway, if it was true, who would these people be, in that story, and why? Would they be the Adam and Eve of Genesis 2?

"Dr." Rana was no doubt just tossing out words picked up from Googling "evilution".

 

[Craig B]

"Dr." Rana was no doubt just tossing out words picked up from Googling "evilution".

Yes, but it's an interesting question. According to the Genesis story, would Adam and Eve be the Y chromosome and mitochondrial ancestors, i.e. the latest common ancestors in each of the male and female line of descent? If not, who would be and why? Has DOC ever thought about this?

 

[Correa Neto]

Creationism, Bible literalism and YEC are scams.
Creationists, Bible literalists and YECs lie, deceive, distort the truth.

The real Genesis is not written at the pages of the Bible but at the pages of Earth.

Case in point: "There are no transitional fossils".

Archeopterix. Looks like something between a small raptor dinosaur and a bird...

Confunciornis. Younger than Archeopterix, looks like something between Archeopterix and modern birds.

It seems we also have lots of transitional fossils when it comes down to whales... Which one ate Jonah, BTW?

Lots of transitional fossils between our own species and our own ancestors from other species and genus, too.

Want more evidence of the lies and falsehoods spewed by Bible literalist, YEC and Creationist scammers?

 

[Craig B]

Correa Neto

All you've done is to increase the number of missing links, as far as creationists are concerned! There used to be a missing link between dinosaurs and birds. Now there's a missing link between dinosaurs and archaeopteryx, and another one between it and these green things with the claws, and another missing link between them and today's birds. So you've made things even worse for the evilutionists!

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yes, but it's an interesting question. According to the Genesis story, would Adam and Eve be the Y chromosome and mitochondrial ancestors, i.e. the latest common ancestors in each of the male and female line of descent? If not, who would be and why? Has DOC ever thought about this?

Yeahbutism allows for that. "It's just a theological construct."

 

[Correa Neto]

Correa Neto

All you've done is to increase the number of missing links, as far as creationists are concerned! There used to be a missing link between dinosaurs and birds. Now there's a missing link between dinosaurs and archaeopteryx, and another one between it and these green things with the claws, and another missing link between them and today's birds. So you've made things even worse for the evilutionists!

Oh, dammit... Especially when it comes down to whales...

Was Lucy the Eve?
I can build a theological construct allowing it...
If I do it... Can I get a cut of the money milked from believers?

 

[zooterkin]

Yes, but it's an interesting question. According to the Genesis story, would Adam and Eve be the Y chromosome and mitochondrial ancestors, i.e. the latest common ancestors in each of the male and female line of descent? If not, who would be and why? Has DOC ever thought about this?

Apart from the fact, already mentioned, that they were not contemporaries, Mitochondrial Eve is not a fixed individual (nor is Y-chromosonal Adam), and will change over time as descendants on a particular line die out.

 

[Craig B]

Apart from the fact, already mentioned, that they were not contemporaries, Mitochondrial Eve is not a fixed individual (nor is Y-chromosonal Adam), and will change over time as descendants on a particular line die out.

So Genesis 2 Eve is not "mitochondrial Eve" in the real world. But she is not "mitochondrial Eve" in the Bible either. We're discussing the Flood. Clearly, if this mythical tale was true, Noah would be "Y chromosome Adam", as the father of all post-Flood males. "Mitochondrial Eve" wouldn't be Mrs Noah, however, as she only had sons. That person would be whoever was the latest common ancestor, in the female line, of Noah's sons' wives. So if they married three sisters, the latter's mother; if cousins, their grandmother, etc. As in the real world, not contemporaries. Creationists don't seem to have taken this into account.

 

[Steve001]

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/HollyDOC.jpg​

Let's do some 'rithmetic. It's fun, and it might help you with your sense of perspective.

Age of Earth ≈ 4.5 billion years

Written out in long form, that looks like this:

4,500,000,000​

Time since alleged Noachian flood ≈ 6 thousand years

ie.

6,000​

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/So.png

The relationship between the time that's passed since the alleged flood and the age of the Earth can be expressed as:

6000/4500000000​

or

1/750000​

If you're anything like me, you'll be all, like "and?" by this stage. It's all just boring old numbers.

Pictures tell the story so much better.

So let's have one . . .

The rectangle below contains 750,000 pixels. The one in the very top left-hand corner is bright red and represents the time which has passed since the alleged flood. (You'll probably need to zoom in a bit to see it, depending on your monitor.) The dark green represents the entirety of the Earth's history.​

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/Perspective.png​

I ask nothing more of you, DOC, than that you contemplate this.

And after he has contemplated he'll say, It's all just boring old numbers.

 

[Steve001]

Under present conditions yes, but present conditions would not have existed with the earth covered with water and fountains of the deep (as the bible calls them) shooting out water---possibly the same water that came from the previous time the earth was covered with water as some scientists mention here:

http://metro.co.uk/2008/12/31/early-earth-was-covered-in-water-274995/

Also the fact that some scientists are now saying almost all of the earth was covered with water 2.5 billion years causes more problems for evolutionists because that reduces the time that the alleged evolution of millions and millions of highly diverse land species such as dinosaurs, land animals, birds, insects, land plants, humans, trees, ferns etc. had time to evolve. When you add to this that there are hardly any transitional specie fossils when they should be all over the place and evolution has some serious problems.

http://www.genesispark.org/exhibits/fossils/missing-links/gaps/

Also, the scientists in the article said that not even fish had evolved yet 2.5 billion years ago.

You link to a creationist site to prove the point, why that's laughable.

 

[Akhenaten]

Here is one opinion on your statement.

<bilge>

He goes on to say at the end of the article: "The scientific and biblical stories of human origins harmonize quite well."

Frogtits.


Aside from that, however, this remains unanswered:

Your intimation that Pangea was one continent as recently as 6K years ago seems to indicate otherwise.

Suppose you lay out a chronology:

In your opinion, when did 'god' create the world?

In your opinion, when was Pangea last a single continent?

In your opinion, when did the "global flood" happen?

In your opinion, when did the orogeny of the Himalayas happen?

Please to put those 4 events in the order you want to be able to claim that they happened, with the dates you want to wish for them.

 

[Akhenaten]

And after he has contemplated he'll say, It's all just boring old numbers.

I admire your optimism, cobber.

For my own part I doubt that he'll even bother to read it.