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Brian Dunning lawsuit

"I spent it on lawyers" has been referenced a couple times on this thread. I don't understand why Dunning considers that relevant, or a reason it's cool to continue asking for money. He spent the money on lawyers because he acquired the money thru criminal activity...and he thinks we should send him more money to help him out? Chutzpah.

And if even half the money was legally obtained - which means you have to accept Dunning's sites legitimately generated over $2.5M and that seems absurd to me - and he gave half of the full $5M to his partner, he spent $2.5M on lawyers? That's capital case type fees, leaving him in a position to need ten bucks from you and me to cover his light bill? Yes, I'm slightly outraged.
 
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Exactly. When I was listening to Skeptoid and considering making a donation, I was picturing a guy doing this work on the side, having to spend money on bandwith and some fancy recording equipment or something. He made it sound like he was a guy of modest means going to extraordinary lengths to shine that light of skepticism to help keep the innocents from falling prey to the scammers.

Apparently, he WAS such a scammer and didn't need money to support Skeptoid, he needed money to pay off the legal fees associated with his defense for criminal activity. That defense also would've been one heck of a lot cheaper had he just admitted to wrongdoing in the first place.

Of course, I contributed to those fees by purchasing two copies of "Here Be Dragons." I've used snippets of that production in my classes; now I will never use it again.

Sorry, no sympathy here.
 
icerat said:
The FBI says $5.2 million, but the plea agreement apparently includes Dunning disputing that it was all illegally obtained. This is probably true, some would have been from legitimate links from his sites.
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SomedayGirl said:
"I spent it on lawyers" has been referenced a couple times on this thread. I don't understand why Dunning considers that relevant, or a reason it's cool to continue asking for money. He spent the money on lawyers because he acquired the money thru criminal activity...and he thinks we should send him more money to help him out? Chutzpah.

And if even half the money was legally obtained - which means you have to accept Dunning's sites legitimately generated over $2.5M and that seems absurd to me - and he gave half of the full $5M to his partner, he spent $2.5M on lawyers? That's capital case type fees, leaving him in a position to need ten bucks from you and me to cover his light bill? Yes, I'm slightly outraged.
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I didn't take his comment to mean that he spent $5M, or even $2.5M, on lawyers, I took it to mean that his share of the $5M was minor, such that it was all spent on lawyers in a pretty short amount of time.

Taking the amount of time he has been fighting this I would not be surprised if he sent over $100k on lawyers, but I doubt it was even close to a $1M.

And could it be that he is not saying much because the eBay civil case is still pending? Once that is settled I would expect some clarification of what he has admitted doing and why. But not until the dust has truly settled.

ETA: As to accusations of fanboy fawning, yes I once listened to Skeptoid on a fairly regular basis, but I stopped listening some time ago for a far more important reason: I don't like his voice or delivery. And if you listen to several episodes back to back during a long drive the intro and ending combine in an especially annoying way. It's a personal thing, but once I find something annoying it is hard for me to get past it. Yet, I still feel like I can withhold judgement until I know more facts, as opposed to allegations. Odd.
 
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erlando said:
From your last link:
Update 4/17/13: I have pled guilty to one count of writing one cookie.]
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One count of writing one cookie. Hardly earning him $5.2 million.

I'm still waiting for this to play out. The guilty plea may just be his only way of stopping this. It's been going on for 5 years. It cannot be fun.
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Um. That's a claim by the accused. If a person accused of fraud says, "I only did it once", how much weight should you give to that as a skeptic? Especially since the case against him is for much more than that, and plenty of links have been provided which indicate it was much greater than that.

If a psychic said, "I only gave one fraudulent psychic reading", how hard would you laugh?
 
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G6000 said:
Um. That's a claim by the accused.
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If that is what the plea agreement shows then I think it is not just a claim by the accused. It is what the prosecutors settled for.

If the prosecution thought it had a strong case for thousands of counts they typically wouldn't let him plead out to just one count. Unless maybe the US government no longer thinks fraud is a big deal . . .
 
Dr. Keith said:
If that is what the plea agreement shows then I think it is not just a claim by the accused. It is what the prosecutors settled for.

If the prosecution thought it had a strong case for thousands of counts they typically wouldn't let him plead out to just one count. Unless maybe the US government no longer thinks fraud is a big deal . . .
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Per the FBI, the plea agreement is pleading guilty to the offence as outlined in the superseding information. That includes the $5.3 million figure and talks numerous times about cookies, plural. Read it. That's what he plead guilty to.

From the FBI press release -

In pleading guilty, Dunning admitted that, between approximately May 2006 and June 2007, he engaged in a scheme to defraud eBay through so-called “cookie stuffing.” According to the plea agreement, commissions paid to Dunning’s company, Kessler’s Flying Circus (KFC), which Dunning owned jointly with his brother, totaled approximately $5.2 million during that period from eBay’s domestic Affiliate Program.​

As noted above, the Count being for just one cookie is probably primarily procedural, the original Federal indictment only included five examples. I suppose it gives Dunning a bit of a "win", but not very much.

Dunning's edit to his post the way he did is misleading to say the least.

Oh ... and we were talking about where all the money went - rereading the documents reminded me of the fact he was also paying off a Commission Junction employee who was helping him. 10% according to Dunning.
 
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icerat said:
Per the FBI, the plea agreement is pleading guilty to the offence as outlined in the superseding information. That includes the $5.3 million figure and talks numerous times about cookies, plural. Read it. That's what he plead guilty to.

From the FBI press release -

In pleading guilty, Dunning admitted that, between approximately May 2006 and June 2007, he engaged in a scheme to defraud eBay through so-called “cookie stuffing.” According to the plea agreement, commissions paid to Dunning’s company, Kessler’s Flying Circus (KFC), which Dunning owned jointly with his brother, totaled approximately $5.2 million during that period from eBay’s domestic Affiliate Program.​

As noted above, the Count being for just one cookie is probably primarily procedural, the original Federal indictment only included five examples. I suppose it gives Dunning a bit of a "win", but not very much.

Dunning's edit to his post the way he did is misleading to say the least.

Oh ... and we were talking about where all the money went - rereading the documents reminded me of the fact he was also paying off a Commission Junction employee who was helping him. 10% according to Dunning.
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Also according to the fbi link above:

Dunning, 47, of Laguna Niguel, California, was indicted by a federal grand jury on June 24, 2010, and charged with five counts of wire fraud, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1343. Under the plea agreement, Dunning pleaded guilty to a superseding information, filed on April 15, 2013, that alleged a separate violation of the same statute. In his plea agreement, Dunning admitted that he received payments for revenue actions for which he was not entitled to be compensated but reserved the right to dispute how much of those payments were attributable to the cookie stuffing scheme.​

ETA: If you want to hang him from the cross go ahead, I'd just rather wait until this whole thing is settled to see how bad it really is. Not to say it won't be bad, but how bad is another question.
 
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Can't one cookie theoretically generate an unlimited number of fraudulent transactions?

Saying he only created one fraudulent vehicle is pretty lame.
 
Dr. Keith said:
ETA: If you want to hang him from the cross go ahead, I'd just rather wait until this whole thing is settled to see how bad it really is. Not to say it won't be bad, but how bad is another question.
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I don't need to "hang him from a cross", he's "hoist by his own petard" in his FBI interview.
 
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icerat said:
The FBI says $5.2 million, but the plea agreement apparently includes Dunning disputing that it was all illegally obtained. This is probably true, some would have been from legitimate links from his sites.

I don't know if any of his assets have been seized as yet, I can't find any reports of that. A hearing on any restitution is still to occur. On his skeptoid blog he says that he didn't get all the money, that there were others involved in the company (true - the ebay and fbi complaints have him as joint owner with his brother) and that he's spent it all on lawyers anyway.

Cry me a river.
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icerat said:
Per the FBI, the plea agreement is pleading guilty to the offence as outlined in the superseding information. That includes the $5.3 million figure and talks numerous times about cookies, plural. Read it. That's what he plead guilty to.

From the FBI press release -

In pleading guilty, Dunning admitted that, between approximately May 2006 and June 2007, he engaged in a scheme to defraud eBay through so-called “cookie stuffing.” According to the plea agreement, commissions paid to Dunning’s company, Kessler’s Flying Circus (KFC), which Dunning owned jointly with his brother, totaled approximately $5.2 million during that period from eBay’s domestic Affiliate Program.​

As noted above, the Count being for just one cookie is probably primarily procedural, the original Federal indictment only included five examples. I suppose it gives Dunning a bit of a "win", but not very much.

Dunning's edit to his post the way he did is misleading to say the least.

Oh ... and we were talking about where all the money went - rereading the documents reminded me of the fact he was also paying off a Commission Junction employee who was helping him. 10% according to Dunning.
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Thanks very much, icerat. Very helpful, and much appreciated.
 
Personally, I don't care whether it was $5 million of $2 million or whatever other number might be tossed around. It appears that this was deliberate fraud for the sole purpose of lining his own pocket, with no mitigating circumstances and no rationale other than a desire to line his own pocket, so I am unable to work up any sympathy for the fellow at all.
 
Can anyone explain to me the long term ramification of a Federal guilty plea? His prospect for work, travel, etc
 
He can't vote for a while, even in California. He can't own a gun in most places. On the bright side, he won't have to serve on a jury.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
What if he already has one? ;)
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Can be trouble with border crossings still. A friend of mine has a felony from the '80s, something along the lines of using his face to assault a police officer's fist. It's a complete nightmare to even try to get him into Canada.
 
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