Explosion at the Boston Marathon.

Keep it coming, BD. These supposed critical thinkers need to get a bit of comeuppance.

Be careful. Smug is deadly in high concentrations.

There was a fund set up to help victims of the bombing barely 24 hours after it happened; by the Massachusetts state government no less. I believe (although I'm not positive, mind) that the federal government was going to either contribute or set up a similar fund.

Dude got 2 legs blown off. Unless he's related to Bill Gates, he's screwed.

I'd be willing to bet that some of the surgeons and doctors will waive their fees. I've heard of just that happening in the past.

That's nice. I guess it pays to lose your legs in a high profile event. Now my cousin lost his leg when a drunk driver clipped him and he went bankrupt, losing his house and everything because of the medical expenses. No surgeon waived those fees for him.

People in prison don't pay anything for their health care costs, either in the US or the UK.

If I ever get cancer I'm robbing a bank. I'd rather be in prison getting chemo than free and dying because I can't afford chemo.
 
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If I ever get cancer I'm robbing a bank. I'd rather be in prison getting chemo than free and dying because I can't afford chemo.

Total win-win. If they don't catch you, you have the money to afford chemo, if they do, free chemo! :D
 
Did the FBI catch both suspects? I think in both cases it was the Boston Police who did the shooting/catching.

Perhaps you meant it was the FBI that solved the case. But did they? The investigation team seemed to be made up of more than the FBI, so giving the FBI sole credit doesn't seem right, and even if you meant it was the authorities and not the FBI as the sole entity responsible for the capture/shooting of the suspects it doesn't seem quite right to give the authorities sole credit for the success of this operation. The guy with his legs blown off provided them with a pretty big clue when he regained consciousness and I'd give some credit to the guy who found suspect #2 in his boat and called authorities.

Perhaps your point was that the authorities together with support from various citizens caught both suspects, but without any help from the various internet investigations that materialized. You might be right about that, but even there I'm not sure you were right. What was the process that led to the release of better resolution pictures of the suspects and did the better resolution pictures play any role in their capture?

Okay, first please excuse a non-American's understanding of the agencies involved. I had assumed the FBI was 'in charge' and would take the suspects into custody. Like wot happens in Die Hard.:cool:

Second let me phrase it like this instead: the FBI-led investigation apparently identified the suspects using good old fashioned methods, including analysis of photos and videos, vigilance of the public and the eyes, ears and bravery of local police. (And sadly sacrifice)

It's emerging that the crowd sourced analysis was a disaster. It looks like nobody involved in that fiasco noticed the two actual suspects. Not until the FBI released their images did the amateurs begin to stop fingering innocents and focus on the correct people. The only worthwhile achievement was the identification of a higher resolution photo, which it seems was not related to reddit or other online collaborations. It's not known if this higher resolution photo even helped, but what is very likely is that other people privately contacted the FBI with their own tips and high res photos without getting awarded all the Internet kudos.

In my opinion, the most inept analyses spread furthest and fastest across the Internet. I could not believe my eyes when I saw posters here, of all places, taking the 'same fence' photos at face value and distributing them. That particular analysis was as bad as the worst Truther garbage. The episode proved nothing other than what every JREF supporter already knows - BS spreads faster than facts.

For the most part this forum handles things well. I actually chose to follow the entire thing via this forum rather than any other source. It's quick and a lot of people give excellent skeptical counterpoints to overexcited pundits and bloggers. I just think its a shame that what was clearly an utter mess is being defended under the banner of 'rights'. Having the right to do something, doesn't mean it's right to do it.

I hope next time this happens the amateur sleuthing is doused in healthy scepticism in light of what happened this time around. Who knows maybe there'll one day be a sub-forum here dedicated to tackling rampant unchecked online witch-hunts the way we once tackled no-planers. It's clearly a phenomenon that isn't going to go away, but like dowsing and mediumship, unless it's doing some proven good it needs challenging for all the harm its capable of wherever it crops up.
 
Croud sourcing can work. But it needs to be controlled. I posted how it could be handled in another thread when this all started. I specifically said that the photos at the bomb site and time of the blast needed to be withheld from the croud.
 
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I hope next time this happens the amateur sleuthing is doused in healthy scepticism in light of what happened this time around. Who knows maybe there'll one day be a sub-forum here dedicated to tackling rampant unchecked online witch-hunts the way we once tackled no-planers. It's clearly a phenomenon that isn't going to go away, but like dowsing and mediumship, unless it's doing some proven good it needs challenging for all the harm its capable of wherever it crops up.

And so do I. I just don't think the amateur sleuths were committing some great moral crime. It was unlikely that they would do good and likely that they would do harm if they were not circumspect with regard to any suggestions or conclusions put forth. And it appears some of them were not sufficiently circumspect. Still, I see a variety of potential benefits from a crowd source type investigation like this and I'm fine with it happening if there is another similar event. For one thing, not all similar events are likely to involve the massive number of professionals that this one did and in that case this kind of volunteer effort might be especially helpful .

One effect of the amateur sleuths' involvement in this case might have been that the authorities released the images of the suspects sooner than they might have otherwise. I don't know whether that was good or not, but I lean to the idea it was good. The authorities considered the possibility that when the suspects realized that they had been identified, the suspects might have committed another more violent act. And perhaps the early release of the photos resulted in the death of the MIT police officer, or perhaps without the early release of the images the suspects would have escaped and gone on to commit more grievous acts.
 
Croud sourcing can work. But it needs to be controlled. I posted how it could be handled in another thread when this all started. I specifically said that the photos at the bomb site and time of the blast needed to be withheld from the croud.

It's possible this cannot be helped. The FBI and police did not release any of the bomb site photos; it seems all the photos used in the Internet speculation came from spectators who had submitted their photos to news sites and online photo albums. I would hope all of these people had also submitted their photos to the police, but I suppose it's possible that some did not.
 
I was happy to have it settled how they came to know the identity of the suspects. Nothing to do with internet guesswork (of course), but also nothing to do with friends of the suspects! It all came down to fingerprints after the shootout.
Also nothing to do with trained law enforcement investigation, apparently.

They were identified because they hijacked a car, identified themselves, released the owner unharmed, and remained in the car until the police were able to surround and capture one of them.

I'm amazed they didn't blow themselves up before they managed to plant the first bomb.
 
So it seems the only thing the "Internet sleuths" really accomplished was force the FBI try and clean up the mess they were making.
Good enough.

Honestly, they'd announced they had a picture of a suspect wearing a hoodie and a white baseball cap turned backwards. At that point, the suspect knew they'd spotted him, and the only thing not releasing the pictures achieved was providing him 24 hours to escape before the public could identify him.

Rather than trying to control everything and restrict information, law enforcement should share more of the information they have with the public they're supposed to protect and serve.
 
For the most part this forum handles things well. I actually chose to follow the entire thing via this forum rather than any other source. It's quick and a lot of people give excellent skeptical counterpoints to overexcited pundits and bloggers. I just think its a shame that what was clearly an utter mess is being defended under the banner of 'rights'. Having the right to do something, doesn't mean it's right to do it.

I hope next time this happens the amateur sleuthing is doused in healthy scepticism in light of what happened this time around. Who knows maybe there'll one day be a sub-forum here dedicated to tackling rampant unchecked online witch-hunts the way we once tackled no-planers. It's clearly a phenomenon that isn't going to go away, but like dowsing and mediumship, unless it's doing some proven good it needs challenging for all the harm its capable of wherever it crops up.
You could call it an utter mess, but I don't see it that way.

It's true the folks on Reddit highlighted "suspicious backpacks" on a handful of people who had nothing to do with the bombing, and didn't highlight the two people who did. I see that failure as one of too little information rather than too much. They were working only with the photos and videos they had, and they didn't have most of what was available.

In this day of near-ubiquitous imaging devices, it's unrealistic to expect that people will not upload and share their images of newsworthy events, or that people will not examine those images and share their opinions if the event involved an unsolved crime.

We haven't yet seen the video of S2 planting the backpack which exploded, but I think it's pretty certain that if that video had been available online, the folks at Reddit would have implicated S2 more quickly than the authorities did.

I agree with you that this amateur sleuthing should be accompanied by a healthy dose of skepticism, and from what little I've seen of the discussions at Reddit, for the most part, it was. The "findthebostonbombers" section is closed now, but from the very beginning they honored the Reddit policy of not posting personal information, and "Tunil is not one of the bombers" was one of the top half-dozen topics there from virtually the moment someone claimed a resemblance. I see nothing wrong with using such events to inculcate a bit of critical thinking. At the same time, I think it's important to remember that teaching people to think critically involves more than incessantly whining "this is not critical thinking".

It's also important to remember that "we don't know all the facts" is not the same as "we don't have enough information to make intelligent guesses".
 
It's true the folks on Reddit highlighted "suspicious backpacks" on a handful of people who had nothing to do with the bombing, and didn't highlight the two people who did. I see that failure as one of too little information rather than too much. They were working only with the photos and videos they had, and they didn't have most of what was available.

Picking out guys with backpacks big enough to hold a bomb has value. It's certainly much better than looking for people with "evil eyes" or "suspicious body language".
 
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Honestly, they'd announced they had a picture of a suspect wearing a hoodie and a white baseball cap turned backwards. At that point, the suspect knew they'd spotted him, and the only thing not releasing the pictures achieved was providing him 24 hours to escape before the public could identify him.

This seems like an interesting point. Is it true that the authorities released a statement with this much information about the suspects 24 hours before they released the images of the suspect?

If this is true, what was the intent of the authorities? It seems like it would have been to let the suspects know they had been identified, but to not release information to the public that would have helped them identify the suspects. Perhaps they felt the delay was necessary to insure that it was very likely, at least, that they hadn't identified the wrong suspect. When did they determine that it was very likely that the suspects they had identified were the bombers? If it was roughly coincident with the release of the first statement describing the suspects it seems very hard to find a justification for not releasing the images sooner except that the authorities were exercising excessive control of the information.

Rather than trying to control everything and restrict information, law enforcement should share more of the information they have with the public they're supposed to protect and serve.

You might be right, but I would like to hear a bit from the people who disagree with you on this.
 
Also nothing to do with trained law enforcement investigation, apparently.

They were identified because they hijacked a car, identified themselves, released the owner unharmed, and remained in the car until the police were able to surround and capture one of them.
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Exactly, while from the outside it looked like the authorities did a lot of good work, it also looks like various bits of good luck were key to the successful capture/death of these suspects including the identification from the man whose legs were blown off, the information from the man whose car was hijacked and the man who found the suspect hiding in his boat.

Right now, it looks like the police made at least one major mistake when they allowed S2 to escape. It also seems possible that the delayed release of images of the suspect might not have been a good decision. Of course, I am making these judgments as a person with no law enforcement experience without a full understanding of all the facts, but that is the same situation that most of the people who are congratulating the police on a job well done are in.
 
This seems like an interesting point. Is it true that the authorities released a statement with this much information about the suspects 24 hours before they released the images of the suspect?

I don't think so -- sort of.

I don't believe that the information about the cap, hoodie and jacket was released in any press briefing or through any official means. However, I do recall hearing about those details a day before the photos were released (on Wednesday, amid the false rumors of the arrest), so these details must have been leaked by someone.

Whether the leak was intentional on the part of the FBI or not is just a matter of guesswork. (My guess is not, but it's no better than anyone else's guess.)
 
This seems like an interesting point. Is it true that the authorities released a statement with this much information about the suspects 24 hours before they released the images of the suspect?

If this is true, what was the intent of the authorities? It seems like it would have been to let the suspects know they had been identified, but to not release information to the public that would have helped them identify the suspects. Perhaps they felt the delay was necessary to insure that it was very likely, at least, that they hadn't identified the wrong suspect. When did they determine that it was very likely that the suspects they had identified were the bombers? If it was roughly coincident with the release of the first statement describing the suspects it seems very hard to find a justification for not releasing the images sooner except that the authorities were exercising excessive control of the information.

You might be right, but I would like to hear a bit from the people who disagree with you on this.
It's definitely true that they released the information that one suspect had a white baseball cap turned backward 24 hours before they held the press conference at which the images were made public.

It may be that all they had at that time was the video we haven't seen of S2 placing the backpack, and there was no possibility of an identification (i.e., face wasn't visible). I tend to think that's not the reason, because there were also quasi-official reports that the images they had were distributed to various law-enforcement agencies at that time. If no identification was possible, it seems pointless to share the images with law enforcement.

The "official" reason seems to be that they didn't want to spook the suspects, but as I've said earlier, that doesn't pass the snort test.

I think the real reason is that they were annoyed by the internet sleuthing, and wanted to "nip it! Nip it in the bud!" by announcing that all the people Reddit had implicated, none of whom were wearing a white baseball cap turned backwards, were not "official" suspects, so Reddit should just cut it out. I imagine most of the reasonable people in law enforcement knew that would be ineffective, but the decision makers thought otherwise.
 
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