Should we try Tsarnaev in the USA?

[Unabogie]

Realistically I think this goes to the two basic emotions with which people approach this incident. Some people (like me) feel sadness. Some people feel anger.

I think Senator Graham is addressing the people who are angry. I guess the positive is, remarks like Senator Graham's serve as a safety valve for the angry people.

It's human nature at work and it's not going to go away.

I take a more cynical view of what he's doing. I feel that he's only doing this to stave off a Tea Party primary challenger, and that this is animating a tremendous amount of what he does and says lately. Which is pathetic. There are worse things than losing your senate seat.

 

[NoahFence]

Chechen terrorism is Muslim-oriented terrorism. It didn't start out that way, but that's what it is today.

The kid is alive.

Here's a thought, have HIM tell us why. Not that it'll matter now that everyone has their own opinion.

 

[newyorkguy]

Chechen terrorism is Muslim-oriented terrorism. It didn't start out that way, but that's what it is today.

I didn't mean Chechen terrorism isn't Muslim-oriented. I meant there's no evidence at this point as to why the Tsarnaev brothers did this. There definitely is reason to believe it could be related to Chechen/Muslim terrorism.

 

[zeggman]

The kid is alive.

Here's a thought, have HIM tell us why. Not that it'll matter now that everyone has their own opinion.

Of course it will matter. I'll be waiting to hear it.

In the meantime, anyone who tells me to keep my opinion to myself can stuff it.

 

[newyorkguy]

The older brother was in Russia last year for six months, the Russian police did warn the FBI that they considered the older brother, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, to be involved with Chechen terrorism, the FBI did interview Tamerlan Tsarnaev when he returned to the US and concluded there were no legal issues to pursue. I think we have to wait and see.

I want to correct the statement I made above. According to The New York Times, Tamerlan Tsarnaev was interviewed by the FBI prior to traveling to Russia. The US had been asked by a "foreign government" to look into possible ties Tamerlan Tsarnaev had to terrorist groups.

“They had something on him and were concerned about him and him traveling to their region,” the official said. The F.B.I. conducted a review, examining Web sites that he had visited, trying to determine whether he was spending time with extremists and ultimately interviewing him. The F.B.I. concluded that he was not a threat. “We didn’t find anything on him that was derogatory,” the official said.

Link to Times' article.

 

[ravdin]

We agree on something!

Why is it that supposed lovers of the Constitution on the right seem to only love the 2nd one, while the 4th and 6th are treated like nuisances?

Don't sound so shocked.

I don't know why so many right wingers love the Constitution until something like this happens and suddenly it's too weak to deal with the suspect properly. Let's not forget that there's plenty of blame to spread around for the erosion of our civil liberties, from both the left and right. For example, a couple of years ago the House of Representatives debated renewal of the PATRIOT Act for 30 minutes and President Obama immediately signed electronically from abroad rather than waiting to return to Washington. I should add that there's also been consistent opposition to Washington taking our civil liberties away from both the left (Bernie Sanders) and the right (Rand Paul).

I'm not worried that Tsarnaev hasn't been Mirandized at this time, as there's a precedent for questioning a suspect without reading him his rights if public safety is at stake, and there's a plausible case to be made for it. I couldn't agree more however that he should be given due process and tried in a criminal court. It will be messy and extremely frustrating given that there seems to be very little doubt about his guilt, but in my view he's won something if we allow ourselves to allow ourselves to be intimidated into giving up the rule of law.

 

[newyorkguy]

I couldn't agree more however that he should be given due process and tried in a criminal court.

CNN is reporting that it is possible (they're not saying how likely) Dzhokhar Tsarnaev could be charged today, arraigned in his hospital bed.

CNN also interviewed a former USAG who said it is conceivable that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev could be taken into federal custody as an "enemy combatant," and potentially sent to Guantanamo Bay. The decision would probably hinge on whether officials were a) convinced the Tsarnaev brothers were conspiring with Chechen terrorist groups and b) that more information could be gained through charging Dzhokhar Tsarnaev as an "enemy combatant," rather than as a criminal defendant.

The former AG said that officials could also do both: take Dzhokhar Tsarnaev into custody as an enemy combatant and then later return him to civilian authorities to face criminal charges.

 

[zeggman]

If they stretch the definition of "enemy combatant" to cover this kid it will be a disgusting abuse of power.

Spaghetti *********** Monster, it seems like ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, we've been trying to fill the void. The Patriot Act was bad, Gitmo was worse. Please don't sink even lower.

 

[DGM]

If they stretch the definition of "enemy combatant" to cover this kid it will be a disgusting abuse of power.

Spaghetti *********** Monster, it seems like ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, we've been trying to fill the void. The Patriot Act was bad, Gitmo was worse. Please don't sink even lower.

I would doubt any logic to classify Dzhokhar as such. Unless they can establish a foreign connection(to the act) it's un-likely they will. There really is no benefit.

In fact I would be surprised if they seek the death penalty with this kid. His brother on the other hand?

Until we know more, I would avoid getting your panties in a bunch.

 

[newyorkguy]

If they stretch the definition of "enemy combatant" to cover this kid it will be a disgusting abuse of power...

I know how you feel but they have to be very careful. If it's possible this attack was related to some kind of effort to import the violence in Chechnya to the US we need to find that out as quickly as possible. Just because Dzhokhar Tsarnaev seems youthful doesn't change the reality that the Boston Marathon bombing may only be Round One.

They also would not be really expanding the definition of 'enemy combatant," by too much I don't believe. Jose Padilla, an American citizen, was arrested in 2002, on suspicion of plotting a radiological bomb ("dirty bomb") attack. He was charged as an enemy combatant and held in a military prison for over three years before being turned over to a federal court for prosecution on criminal conspiracy charges.

 

[Alt+F4]

CNN also interviewed a former USAG who said it is conceivable that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev could be taken into federal custody as an "enemy combatant," and potentially sent to Guantanamo Bay.

He will be tried in a federal court but he will not be taken to Guantanamo. When has any person arrested in the U.S. on terrorism charges (or any federal crime) been taken to Guantanamo? Answer: Never.

The media just wants you to keep watching, that's all.

 

[brodski]

As a UK citizen I find it difficult to accept that such a discussion can even be started. People who are citizens of a country and are accused of atrocious crimes against fellow citizens within the territory of that country - what else could happen except that they are tried by that country's laws? If the laws are not fit for that purpose, of what possible use are they for any purpose at all?

I find it ironic that you express your shock as a UK citizen. As a UK citizen I I remember that my government interred hundreds of other UK citizens for years without trial, and I know how popular it was. It was very wrong, but I can understand where the sentiment comes from.

 

[newyorkguy]

When has any person arrested in the U.S. on terrorism charges (or any federal crime) been taken to Guantanamo? Answer: Never.

Correct. I probably misquoted the former AG being interviewed on CNN. Only one American I know of was ever classified as an enemy combatant, Jose Padilla (born in Brooklyn) and he was held by the military at a Navy installation in South Carolina.

The AG probably said if Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was so classified he would be turned over to military officials. I believe that is a key difference. As an enemy combatant he would be in the military system not civil.

 

[Nogbad]

Beware politicians that think gulags are a good idea.

 

[NoahFence]

Of course it will matter. I'll be waiting to hear it.

In the meantime, anyone who tells me to keep my opinion to myself can stuff it.

 

[ravdin]

Here's further information about Miranda:

http://www.volokh.com/2013/04/20/tsarnaev-and-miranda-rights/

To sum up:

1. It's lawful for the government to intentionally violate Miranda as long as they don't attempt to submit the suspect's statements in court.

2. Agents are free to question Tsarnaev outside of Miranda for intelligence gathering purposes if they don't cross the line of coercing statements from him.

3. Even if Tsarnaev is questioned outside of Miranda, and the information gathered from him doesn't fit the "public safety" exception, he can still be asked to repeat his incriminating statements after he has been read his rights. If he were to agree to this, it's very likely a court would allow his statements to be submitted as evidence.

By the way, IANAL so apologies in advance if I didn't get all of this quite right.

 

[Jodie]

Once you've bombed a public area killing and maiming several people, you forfeited any rights or concerns that this country should honor after you have taken advantage of whatever benefits drew you here to begin with. I say screw it, I don't care what happens to the guy.It won't be a good ending regardless of what kind, where it's done, or how they decide to dish up justice.

 

[Stellafane]

I found some links -- and I'm posting the latest one (from roughly 4 AM this morning) Link -- but they are all very brief.

From a local news radio report:

Link

According to my daughter -- who attends Umass-Dartmouth and is acquainted with some of the people involved (in fact, she stays in the same dorm as Tsarnaev) -- when the FBI initially released the photos, one of the "New Bedford Three" called Tsarnaev and jokingly told him that his twin brother was the Boston bomber. In fact, it's just barely possible that it was that call that tipped him off (not that he was likely to have remained in the dark anyway). I can see why on face value, the FBI might want to have a little chat about the particulars of that call. (Bear in mind this is all college-student level chatter, so feel free to apply salt liberally.)

 

[DGM]

Once you've bombed a public area killing and maiming several people, you forfeited any rights or concerns that this country should honor after you have taken advantage of whatever benefits drew you here to begin with. I say screw it, I don't care what happens to the guy.It won't be a good ending regardless of what kind, where it's done, or how they decide to dish up justice.

In the ideal world. Personally, I want to be sure they got the right guys.

 

[Nogbad]

Once you've bombed a public area killing and maiming several people, you forfeited any rights or concerns that this country should honor after you have taken advantage of whatever benefits drew you here to begin with. I say screw it, I don't care what happens to the guy.It won't be a good ending regardless of what kind, where it's done, or how they decide to dish up justice.

I think it would be unwise to jettison the concept of innocent until proved guilty unless you quite like the idea of Judge Dredd stomping around the streets. One may forfeit rights on conviction in court but up until that point the principle of innocent until proved guilty should remain. The alternative makes it far too easy for those of ill will to start dropping all sorts of things between the "Once" and the "you forfeit all rights"