Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[A'isha]

Malcolm, if a person, right now, today, April 17, 2013, sends a resume and application to Boeing for a position as an aircraft designer, but the resume says that the only education he or she has is dropping out of high school (not even a GED), and lists their work experience as managing a small local shop that sells and repairs bicycles, what are the chances of that person getting hired by Boeing for the job?

 

[RandFan]

It will get you elected in times of anti-Catholic bigotry, like the waves of immigration of the early 1800s. Today, expanding the span of compulsory schooling (what used to be 12-14 is now often 5-18) will win a politician support from public-sector unions.Then someone doesn't know what "freedom" means. Compulsion and freedom are antonyms.On-the-job training is education. Thomas Edison's parents were not wealthy. Cyrus McCormick's parents were not wealthy. John D. Rockefeller's parents were not wealthy. Sam Colt went to sea at 16 and developed the idea for his revolver while underweigh as a seaman between Boston and Bombay.

The Free Market demands a formal education. End of story. We aren't talking about statistical outliers. We are talking about the average person who can't get a job without an education. All of your speculation means nothing in the face of the fact that every nation high in HDI, GDP or Economic Freedom have figured out that compulsory education is the best bet for a functioning society. You've yet accounted for why all of the top nations have compulsory education and many poor nations don't. Ability to pay doesn't cut it. There are poor nations with schools.

All that government has to contribute to the education industry is violence and threats of violence. Motivation is critical to educational success and compulsion kills motivation. Political control of school harms most the children of the least politically adept parents. Who gets the wretched schools on the US mainland? Blacks and Hispanics. Who's overrepresented in prison on the US Mainland? Blacks and Hispanics. Who gets the wretched schools in Hawaii? Hawaiians and Samoans. Who's overrepresented in prison in Hawaii? Hawaiians and Samoans.

The answer is to fix the schools not take it away. You are advocating throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

And you still have not addressed my points. Is there going to come a time when you actually address my arguments and not just repeat your tired conspiracy theory?

 

[RandFan]

Malcolm, if a person, right now, today, April 17, 2013, sends a resume and application to Boeing for a position as an aircraft designer, but the resume says that the only education he or she has is dropping out of high school (not even a GED), and lists their work experience as managing a small local shop that sells and repairs bicycles, what are the chances of that person getting hired by Boeing for the job?

Malcolm? Why is it that the free market demands an education?

 

[Spindrift]

Why use "other words" when we can discuss what I actually wrote?Compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery. Laws compel attendance at school. You can't eat a transcript.

You obviously were never a slave.

 

[RandFan]

Why use "other words" when we can discuss what I actually wrote?Compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery. Laws compel attendance at school. You can't eat a transcript.

You won't have a very good job if you don't get a diploma or GED at least. And you certainly won't get into an institution of higher education.

So, back to loki's paradox. You say slavery is a degree. Fine, when does it end? If a parent forces his or her child into some kind of education, home education, then is that slavery for the child?

Your arguments are at best weak as far as I can tell. It would be helpful if your arguments could actually address the many points made. As it is they are just repeats and are simply becoming argument ad nauseam.

 

[RandFan]

More questions not to be answered.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Gasp... slavery.

• Does public education provide skills necessary for many if not most to survive in today's world?
• If a rich parent compels a child to go to a private school is that slavery?
• If a parent compels a child to do home chores is that necessary?
• If a poor child never goes to school is that child more or less likely to be a success?
• Does public education provide any useful skills and knowledge to the children who attend?

These questions won't be answered with a yes and no because they are inconvenient. The fact that a child's future is typically dependent on how well he or she does in school makes the argument that public school is slavery idiotic.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Malcolm? Why is it that the free market demands an education?

NOT("compulsory attendance at school" = "education").

 

[RandFan]

NOT("compulsory attendance at school" = "education").

So, if parents force their children to be educated, is that slavery?

 

[RandFan]

NOT("compulsory attendance at school" = "education").

The ability to work increases significantly with a diploma or GED do you deny that? If your "education" won't get you a job then what the hell good is it?

 

[elbe]

So, if parents force their children to be educated, is that slavery?

Since, obviously, compulsory schooling isn't education, I think the more important question is why the free market demands it. I can only assume it's so they know the employees are used to being slaves.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

The ability to work increases significantly with a diploma or GED do you deny that?

That is an artifact of the employment laws which penalize pre-employment tests which yield a "disparate impact" and which make firing employees who don't fit costly.

If your "education" won't get you a job then what the hell good is it?

A lot of English MAs wonder the same thing as they restock shelves and fall farther behind in their student loan repayments. A lot of welders wonder why they had to take four years of high school literature.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Since, obviously, compulsory schooling isn't education, I think the more important question is why the free market demands it. I can only assume it's so they know the employees are used to being slaves.

"The free market" did not demand compulsory schooling.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

So, if parents force their children to be educated, is that slavery?

To a degree. Compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery.
Compulsion and compensation are matters of degree. Compulsion and compensation vary in degree with the range of options available to parents and children. Every increase in the range of options reduces compulsion and enhances compensation.

 

[elbe]

"The free market" did not demand compulsory schooling.

Well, for some reason companies seem to want people with high school educations. Do you believe they are being coerced into that?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

If a poor child never goes to school is that child more or less likely to be a success?¹Does public education provide any useful skills and knowledge to the children who attend?²These questions won't be answered with a yes and no because they are inconvenient.³ The fact that a child's future is typically dependent on how well he or she does in school makes the argument that public school is slavery idiotic.⁴

1. More or less likely than whom? Whether parents who keep children out of school enhance or degrade mental development relative to children who attend school depends on the parents and on the schools that the comparison group attend.
2. That depends on the school.
3. They won't be answered "yes" or "no" because, like the question "does X-radiation enhance longevity" the answer depends on the specific case. Radiation therapy is not indicated for the common cold, for example.
4. The relation between credentials and income indicates the success of the rent-seekers political strategy of lobbying for degree requirements for various employment and against use to pre-employment tests.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Well, for some reason companies seem to want people with high school educations. Do you believe they are being coerced into that?

Yes. Laws and court decisions make test-based pre-employment screening legally risky.

 

[elbe]

Yes. Laws and court decisions make test-based pre-employment screening legally risky.

It does? My company uses tests for employment screening. They've gone through several varieties in the time I've been here. I trust you have some citations for your claims, yes?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

It does? My company uses tests for employment screening. They've gone through several varieties in the time I've been here. I trust you have some citations for your claims, yes?

Yes. See the chapter on the evolution of affirmative action in employment in Murray and Hernstein, The Bell Curve.

 

[A'isha]

Yes. See the chapter on the evolution of affirmative action in employment in Murray and Hernstein, The Bell Curve.

A) Murray's book is racist bunk, as I told you when you first brought him up, and B) that isn't actually a cite in support of your claims, as elbe requested.

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

A) Murray's book is racist bunk, as I told you when you first brought him up, and B) that isn't actually a cite in support of your claims, as elbe requested.

Alas, "racist bunk" for Murray is a feature, not a bug.