General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Another person miling the Holocaust turns up. Anyone seen anybody with an A7734 tattoo. Maybe he should ask A7713, Elie Weasel.

Or maybe you could look up the Auschwitz Chronicle and realise the following:

24 May 1944: numbers A-5729 to A-7728 are registered in the male series, 2000 Jews from Hungary slated to work in the various camps of Auschwitz III, including Elie Wiesel at Monowitz

28 May 1944: numbers A-7729 to A-7740 are registered in the male series, 6 pairs of twins from Hungary = the news story about Menachem Bodner.

29 May 1944: numbers A-7741 to A-9740 are registered in the male series, 2000 Jews from Hungary slated to work, including Dr Miklos Nyiszli to name one example.
 
Yeah, I already found another source saying he was not in the same batch. Mr. Bodner was apparently also experimented upon horribly by Dr. Mengele leading to lifelong medical consequences, even if he himself has no such recollection. Shows you the power of induced memories and apocryphal storytelling.
 
Yeah, I already found another source saying he was not in the same batch. Mr. Bodner was apparently also experimented upon horribly by Dr. Mengele leading to lifelong medical consequences, even if he himself has no such recollection. Shows you the power of induced memories and apocryphal storytelling.

Mengele's experiments on twins are not apocryphal. His collaborator at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute of Anthropology, Human Heredity and Eugenics was Karin Magnusson, who admitted receiving eyes from Auschwitz as research material. There are a number of documents from the SS-Hygiene Institute in Rajsko which explicitly refer to tests being done on Hungarian twins. Lists also exist with anthropometric measurements as well as case notes. These can be seen in facsimile in Helena Kubica's article on Mengele in Hefte von Auschwitz vol. 20.

There is also the case of 200 blood samples being taken, something mentioned by the expermental subjects old enough to remember and which ties in with the paper trail leading back to the KWI. While some older interpretations of this have gone too far, the major research project of the Max Planck Gesellschaft into the activities of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute cleared up quite a few of the myths. See here for a very interesting study (in German) by Achim Trunk on the blood samples.
 
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-posen.htm

'I shall speak to you here with all frankness of a very serious subject. We shall now discuss it absolutely openly among ourselves, nevertheless we shall never speak of it in public. I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race.-Himmler

'It is one of those things which is easy to say. 'The Jewish race is to be exterminated,' says every Party member. 'That's clear, it's part of our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, right, we'll do it.' -Himmler

You are close to convincing me the Posen speech is genuine. How can we be certain this is not a forgery?
 
Yeah, I already found another source saying he was not in the same batch. Mr. Bodner was apparently also experimented upon horribly by Dr. Mengele leading to lifelong medical consequences, even if he himself has no such recollection. Shows you the power of induced memories and apocryphal storytelling.


Or the effects of prolonged mistreatment and mental shock combined with just a little PTSD.
 
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Mengele's experiments on twins are not apocryphal. His collaborator at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute of Anthropology, Human Heredity and Eugenics was Karin Magnusson, who admitted receiving eyes from Auschwitz as research material.
She admitted? You didn't read your own link?

"In August of 1970 Magnussen retired. Still in her advanced age she justified the Nazi racist ideology. In a conversation with the geneticist Benno Mueller-Hill in 1980 she commented that the Nuernberg race-laws did not go far enough. With that, she denied till the end that Mengele had killed children28 in order to do her research.[//b] Magnussen was deeply involved in the concentration camp crimes through her collaboration with Mengele and the supply of "human material", of which she did not want to have known."29
http://www.estherlederberg.com/Eugenics (CSHL_List)/Karin Magnussen.html


I admit she did apparently do some horrible research:

Here I am sending back to you the galleys of your work: "The Influence of the Color Gene on the Development of Pigment in the Eyes of the Rabbit." The composition was destroyed at the publishing house [during the war]. The publisher of the journal will not print a new copy of your publication. I will tell you frankly why.
http://www.estherlederberg.com/Eugenics (CSHL_List)/Karin Magnussen.html


Think of the poor rabbits, being subjected to racial and genetic theory. Your other link is around 88 pages in German, but searching on Magnussen and Augen I get among others this:

Dieses Projekt wurde von Karin Magnussen, einer Assistentin am Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institut für Anthropologie, verfolgt. Sie untersuchte „die Einwirkung mehrerer Hormone und pharmakologisch wirksamer Stoffe auf die Pigmententwicklung“ des Kaninchenauges.325
http://www.mpiwg-berlin.de/KWG/Ergebnisse/Ergebnisse12.pdf


I wonder whether Kaninchen is German for twins.
 
Hitler’s planned extermination of the Slavic people

Hitler’s planned extermination of the Slavic people

In a previous thread it was claimed Hitler planned to exterminate the Slavic people in the East. I am skeptical of this claim and would like to hear the arguments.
 
Hitler’s planned extermination of the Slavic people

In a previous thread it was claimed Hitler planned to exterminate the Slavic people in the East. I am skeptical of this claim and would like to hear the arguments.

Read Mein Kampf
 
Where does he state that in Mein Kampf?

My mother likes to say that the Nazis wanted to enslave the Slavs. Which they did for some of them, the OST-ArbeiterWP ("Eastern workers").
 
She admitted? You didn't read your own link?

"In August of 1970 Magnussen retired. Still in her advanced age she justified the Nazi racist ideology. In a conversation with the geneticist Benno Mueller-Hill in 1980 she commented that the Nuernberg race-laws did not go far enough. With that, she denied till the end that Mengele had killed children28 in order to do her research.[//b] Magnussen was deeply involved in the concentration camp crimes through her collaboration with Mengele and the supply of "human material", of which she did not want to have known."29
http://www.estherlederberg.com/Eugenics (CSHL_List)/Karin Magnussen.html


I admit she did apparently do some horrible research:

Here I am sending back to you the galleys of your work: "The Influence of the Color Gene on the Development of Pigment in the Eyes of the Rabbit." The composition was destroyed at the publishing house [during the war]. The publisher of the journal will not print a new copy of your publication. I will tell you frankly why.
http://www.estherlederberg.com/Eugenics (CSHL_List)/Karin Magnussen.html


Think of the poor rabbits, being subjected to racial and genetic theory. Your other link is around 88 pages in German, but searching on Magnussen and Augen I get among others this:

Dieses Projekt wurde von Karin Magnussen, einer Assistentin am Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institut für Anthropologie, verfolgt. Sie untersuchte „die Einwirkung mehrerer Hormone und pharmakologisch wirksamer Stoffe auf die Pigmententwicklung“ des Kaninchenauges.325
http://www.mpiwg-berlin.de/KWG/Ergebnisse/Ergebnisse12.pdf


I wonder whether Kaninchen is German for twins.


Karin Magnussen admitted receiving eyes from Auschwitz. That she may have denied the eyes were from murdered children doesn't negate the reality of the experiments; for starters she was not at Auschwitz so anything she said about the gathering of the material is hearsay. Other witnesses say that children were killed for this purpose. Her admission is one of a number of pieces of evidence showing a connection between Mengele and the KWI, and thereby proving that there WERE experiments.

Which is all that matters, since your original incredulity suggested there weren't any at all. You are simply wrong on that.

It is quite clear that the experiments and research involved a diverse range of methods, as mentioned, anthropometric measurements, blood tests, as well as some autopsies. Only some of the subjects were evidently killed, otherwise there would be no survivors.

Try reading Achim Trunk's paper in full; he clarifies what experiments involved rabbits and which ones used human subjects; he also refutes some claims by earlier historians by reexamining the evidence. Proper revisionism, not the junk kind we see from deniers.
 
Did a pretty damn good job with my relatives in (what is now) the Czech Republic. It doesn't appear that any of them survived.
 
You are close to convincing me the Posen speech is genuine. How can we be certain this is not a forgery?

Aside from the fact that there are recordings of the speech, we also have contemporary sources indicating the reactions of those who attended it, most notably Goebbels writing about the speech in his diary and paraphrasing the sentiments expressed. Goebbels wrote:

As far as the Jewish question is concerned, he [Himmler] gives a very unvarnished and frank presentation. He is convinced that we can solve the Jewish question throughout Europe by the end of this year. He proposes the harshest and most radical solution: to exterminate the Jews root and branch [Kind und Kegel]. It is certainly a logical solution, even if it is a brutal one. We have to take responsibility of completely solving this issue in our time.

This source dates from the day after one of the Posen speeches, and was written down in a private diary; it is thus much better evidence than a later testimony from anyone who attended the speech who might have pretended not to be there (like Albert Speer) or tried to obfuscate the speech (like Gottlob Berger) in order to distance themselves from the sentiments expressed.

Himmler was even more blunt in a speech on 21 June 1944 at Sonthofen:

It was necessary to resolve another big question. It was the most horrible task and the most awful assignment that any organization could receive: the solution of the Jewish question. I want to say a few words on the matter to this group with complete candor. It's good that we had the hardness to exterminate the Jews in our territory. Don't ask yourselves how difficult it would have been to carry out such an order, even though, as soldiers, I might say you would understand. But thinking critically as German soldiers, you can see that the order was essential.
Because we wouldn't have been able to withstand the aerial bombing if we had had the Jews in our cities. I am also convinced we would not have been able to hold the Lemberg front of the Generalgouvernement if the big ghettos in Lemberg, Krakau, Lublin, and Warsaw had still been there. We cleaned out the last one, the big ghetto in Warsaw, in summer 1943. In Warsaw there were 500,000 Jews. I tell you this number confidentially. It took us five weeks of street fighting. Just the same, I want to answer a little question that surely you must have. The question is, of course you had to kill the adult Jews, I understand that, but how could you do the same to the women and children? So I have to tell you something: The children will be grown one day. Do we want to be so improper that we say, no, no, we're too weak to kill children. Our children can deal with them. Our children will fight that one out. But the Jewish hate, small today, will be big tomorrow, and the grown avengers will attack our children and grandchildren, who will then have to deal with them. I am convinced that this will be the case even if Adolf Hitler does not survive. No, we cannot shirk our responsibility to kill all the Jews. That would have been cowardly and therefore we adopted a clear solution to the problem, as difficult as it was.

We also have reactions from Wehrmacht generals who attended this speech, given independently, which confirm that Himmler really did talk bluntly about extermination and was understood to be talking bluntly about extermination.
 
Did a pretty damn good job with my relatives in (what is now) the Czech Republic. It doesn't appear that any of them survived.
After seventy years, I wouldn't expect many to. And this ought to bring in Nick below as predictable.
 
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Let's do that:

Although no copies of the actual document have survived, most of the plan's essential elements have been reconstructed from related memos, abstracts and other ancillary documents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

To be true to history, one should provide a more in-depth quote as opposed to the one snippet which caught your attention.

Specifically:


Nearly all the wartime documentation on Generalplan Ost was deliberately destroyed shortly before Germany's defeat in May 1945.[3][4] Thus, no copies of the plan were found after the war among the documents in German archives. Apart from Ehlich's testimony, there are several documents which refer to this plan or are supplements to it. Although no copies of the actual document have survived, most of the plan's essential elements have been reconstructed from related memos, abstracts and other ancillary documents.

One principal document which made it possible to recreate with a great deal of accuracy the contents of Generalplan Ost is a memo of April 27, 1942 entitled Stellungnahme und Gedanken zum Generalplan Ost des Reichsführers SS ("Opinion and Ideas Regarding the General Plan for the East of the Reichsführer-SS") and written by Dr. Erich Wetzel, the director of the Central Advisory Office on Questions of Racial Policy of the Nazi Party (Leiter der Hauptstelle Beratungsstelle des Rassenpolitischen Amtes der NSDAP). This memorandum is an elaboration of Generalplan Ost.


Now then, you may be suprised to learn that the Nazis tried to destroy the documentation of their crimes; however I (and many, many, many others) have known that the Nazis tried to destroy the documentation about their various crimes for quite some time now.
 
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