Why did certain religions ban pork?

"Incompatible"? I'm not sure what you mean by that. It could mean many things. But Islam is an Abrahamic religion that takes a vast amount of its belief system from Judaism and Christianity which is why Muslims consider Jews and Christians as "people of the book". That much is indisputable and saying "No...no!" in capitals and italics doesn't change that.

This is only superficially accurate -- and it's a claim of Islam and secularists only. It's certainly not "indisputable" !!!

Islamic cosmology and its concept of God are both straightforwardly incompatible with Judaism and Christianity -- Islam dogmatically positing that everything that is material in nature is inherently hostile to God, and that God is a perfectly transcendental Being with no qualities of immanence whatsoever.

Religiously, Islam is starkly and clearly based on the concept of "good practice", as well as sometimes claiming that Islam is a philosophy, rather than a religion. Whereas Judaism and Christianity are centred on the concept of Faith, which has no real meaning in Islam.

Scripturally, Islam claims that the Koran is the literal Word of God as dictated to Mohammed by an angel, whereas mainstream Judaism and mainstream Christianity (with the exception of a few minority fundamentalist sects in each) are NOT religions "of the book" from that literalist point of view, as both religions have a very different understanding of the nature of Scripture.

So which part did you find disputable?

Islam is an Abrahamic religion

Disputable?

[It] takes a vast amount of its belief system from Judaism and Christianity

Disputable?

Muslims consider Jews and Christians as "people of the book".

Disputable?

Because those were the claims made in the post that you reacted to thusly:

It's certainly not "indisputable" !!!

By the way, the number of exclamation marks does no more than capital letters or italics for increasing a statements truth value.

At least, not in the secular world.
 
Do you have a link to support that? I quoted upthread a 1836 French study that showed that pork and beef keep

meh, sorry no -- my opinion is of anecdotal origin (from programming some meat storage management software), as well as being covered by NDA even IF I had the original data.

This link says that pork and beef and lamb keep well equally long in the fridge. Not exactly what you claim

That's *exactly* part of my claim.

Concerning the 1836 French study, of course it's relevannt to an entirely different climate.

So why the Jewish prohibition on pork while Egyptians, Philistines, Phoenicians, Assyrians etc. had no such prohibition? If you are arguing that that parasite is the (main) reason for the Jewish taboo, you're essentially claiming all the neighbouring peoples were idiots.

eh -- actually I was just being sarcastic, but that's a fair enough response to the sarcasm.

If you like, I'd sort of be claiming that the Hebrew culture had a better understanding of food hygiene than the neighbours.

Sort of.

Though I'd gladly see a link that could prove me wrong, if I were.

a bunch of illiterate goat herders

oh -- please !!!

NOT this foolish cliché again ...

These "illiterate goatherds" produced one of the seminal works of World Literature, and the literary quality of the Old Testament is very often stunningly high.

My conclusion from the evidence is that trichinosis played no part at all in the Jewish prohibition on pork.

What evidence ?

This is just guesswork.

(*) But that choice is a false dichotomy anyway.

Yepsie ... :)
 
So which part did you find disputable?

If you're interested in the detail, I'd say that the claim that
Islam is an Abrahamic religion
is disputable, but even moreso that
[It] takes a vast amount of its belief system from Judaism and Christianity.

Muslims *claim* that Islam is "Abrahamic" (and certain secularists, religious relativists, and atheists help to vehicle that claim), except that Islam denies many of the foundational tenets of Judaism (and Christianity) -- in that it claims that ALL Prophets prior to Mohammed were either mistaken or that they were positive liars.

The belief system of Islam is intrinsically incompatible with Judaism and Christianity, for reasons that I've already provided, notwithstanding various claims otherwise. It is, in fact, founded upon a deliberate rejection of the foundational dogmata of Judaism and Christianity.

By the way, the number of exclamation marks does no more than capital letters or italics for increasing a statements truth value.

At least, not in the secular world.

I have no interest in your personal opinions regarding my posting style.
 
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NOT this foolish cliché again ...

These "illiterate goatherds" produced one of the seminal works of World Literature, and the literary quality of the Old Testament is very often stunningly high.

Important, perhaps, but certainly not "seminal" in the context of world literature. And sometimes instead of "very often" and effective instead of "stunningly high."

There, fixed.
 
Your last point could be rational, for Muslims, although I suspect that would be something well known. Do you have any scholarly references to that?
Those would be the ahadith, koran and islamic biographies (tabari, ibn ishaq), though I can't give you quotes, that subject not my field when it comes to Islam. However, I've come across it a few times during the years and it fits nicely with the abrogation of the Koran. Mo had contact with jews (and christians) and early on he tried to pass himself of as a prophet to the jews, but since he didn't pass their tests for a prophet, they rejected him. (Plus, he copied biblical stories, but got them wrong, as can be seen in the koran.) In the koran you can see the early verses being nice to jews (i.e. trying to suck up), later on the hateful ones come.


As to the nomadic part, that sounds like fantasy. Maybe some were nomadic. I doubt all were, and in any case I can't find anything reasonable in the idea that the taboo arose simply as an expression of difference.
Huh? I know that a lot of the stories about jews are myths, but that they started of as nomads wasn't one of them.

Food was too important for survival to give up for such emotive reasons.
And yet jews not only don't eat pork, but quite a few other animals, which their neighbours - under the same conditions - ate.

Finally, as has been said here already, pigs are prone to a particularly bad parasite for humans. Other domestic animals are not.
Um...yes they are.

No, it's not just about tapeworm and other parasites -- pork meat is actually very fragile, and it starts to deteriorate very quickly after butchering compared to other meats.
Like chicken? ;)


The existence of the taboo is evidence of this. There is no evidence that the Jews were idiots, and unable to understand the provenance of that parasite.
Um, people back then were pretty much morons when it came to biology. They were under the impression that disease was a sign of sin, ffs.


Muslims *claim* that Islam is "Abrahamic" (and certain secularists, religious relativists, and atheists help to vehicle that claim), except that Islam denies many of the foundational tenets of Judaism (and Christianity) -- in that it claims that ALL Prophets prior to Mohammed were either mistaken or that they were positive liars.

The belief system of Islam is intrinsically incompatible with Judaism and Christianity, for reasons that I've already provided, notwithstanding various claims otherwise. It is, in fact, founded upon a deliberate rejection of the foundational dogmata of Judaism and Christianity.
I wouldn't say that Islam is incompatible with Judaism and Christianity, they score right being Islam in the nastyness department and often have similiar views, but Islam imo is a non-abrahamic religion, as it is based on pagan (i.e. non-jewish/christian) roots and because Mo was neither Jew nor Christian. (Allah was the deity of Mo's tribe/clan and had associated minor dieties with him, see satanic verses, the veneration of the Kaaba, and also the wrong retelling of bible stories, see trinity = father, mother, son.)
 
Important, perhaps, but certainly not "seminal" in the context of world literature. And sometimes instead of "very often" and effective instead of "stunningly high."

There, fixed.

How can I respond, other than that you have never studied Literature at the doctoral level ?
 
Does anyone know of similar prohibitions (not just food) in newer religions where we might still be able to see how they arose? Mormons, Scientologists, Raelians, others?

I know this doesn't mean that ancient religion food taboos arose the same way, but I think it would still shed light on the issue.
Perhaps the Mormons and coffee/tea?

No, it's not just about tapeworm and other parasites -- pork meat is actually very fragile, and it starts to deteriorate very quickly after butchering compared to other meats.
Citation required. This directly contradicts the study posted previously.

The existence of the taboo is evidence of this. There is no evidence that the Jews were idiots, and unable to understand the provenance of that parasite.
Unsupported circular reasoning.
 
Like chicken? ;)

:)

I didn't say "than all other meats" (FWIW, your comment is perfectly coherent with what I learned during my stint in the meat industry)

Um, people back then were pretty much morons when it came to biology. They were under the impression that disease was a sign of sin, ffs.

That's actually an anachronism -- the notion that physical evils were the result of moral ones was an objectively false invention of the early Mediaeval period.

Its survival in certain forms of Protestantism, as well as in mainstream Islam, is a source of much confusion and suffering.

The view in the Torah is far simpler -- eating this that or the other is "sinful" ; which etymologically means something like "a very bad mistake" ; that is to say, it has a good chance of making you ill (independently of their iron age ignorance of the reasons why).

There are some differences between 21st century Orthodox Judaism and the orthodox forms of Christianity concerning this question ; but the various errors suggested by various mediaeval theologians of either religion have been pretty much completely abandoned by both.

There is some survival of these notions in Jewish, Orthodox, and Catholic Mysticism -- but the effects of this partial survival on the moral theologies of each religion are minimal, as well as being fairly abstract in nature.
 
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Citation required. This directly contradicts the study posted previously.

Nope -- a study of the behaviour of pork meat after butchering, in the 21st century or the 19th, in Europe, in the Industrialisation or post-Industrialisation period, is of little relevance to the conclusions of iron age inhabitants of the Middle East/North Africa regarding its sanitary qualities.

Link : it boils down to "don't eat the stuff if you want to remain healthy" (viz. Scripture passim)

Really -- this seems like a comparison between the inhabitants of the iron age and their (mysterious) "sanitation" methods and their lack of the 3000 years of accumulated knowledge since time of writing, and the 21st century technocratic meat industry.

It's a false comparison.

Unsupported circular reasoning.

erm -- no.

Evidence from Ancient manuscripts is evidence, regardless of your personal decision to accept or reject it for your own reasons.

The Law stating "don't eat this or that or the other" is evidence that this, that, and the other were viewed as being unhealthy foodstuffs.
 
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How can I respond, other than that you have never studied Literature at the doctoral level ?

True, just at the graduate level, under actual writers of contemporary literature. But that doesn't change the fact that your hyperbole about the bible as uniform and universal example of seminal literature is not nearly as settled as you allege.
 
meh, sorry no -- my opinion is of anecdotal origin (from programming some meat storage management software), as well as being covered by NDA even IF I had the original data.
So no evidence.


That's *exactly* part of my claim.

Concerning the 1836 French study, of course it's relevannt to an entirely different climate.
As well as your anecdotal claims. I presume you're from the USA as most posters here - correct me if I'm wrong. That's a temperate climate as well.

But they're the best data that has been presented thus far on how well meat preserves. And you totally ignored them in your previous post. If you have data that better applies to the climate of the Near East, present them. They're more pertinent than your anecdotal claims, as the study dates from before modern refrigeration techniques. And I see no reason why in a Mediterranean climate, the preservation times of pork (4 days) and sheep (2 days) attested in France would suddenly be reversed.

eh -- actually I was just being sarcastic, but that's a fair enough response to the sarcasm.

If you like, I'd sort of be claiming that the Hebrew culture had a better understanding of food hygiene than the neighbours.

Sort of.

Though I'd gladly see a link that could prove me wrong, if I were.
You claim it, you prove it. That's an obvious rule. The fact that you don't prove, or even attempt to argue your case, suggests to me that you don't have any argument at all.

oh -- please !!!

NOT this foolish cliché again ...

These "illiterate goatherds" produced one of the seminal works of World Literature, and the literary quality of the Old Testament is very often stunningly high.
So did the Egyptians and the Babylonians. We have writings from them from around 3000 BC. Many biblical scholars put all of the Bible post-exilic, i.e. from around 500 BC onwards. In comparison to their neighbours, the Hebrews were illiterate goat herders, and there is not a single sign of an advanced, structured society. It's disingenuous of you to snip out just that part so you don't have to address that point.

What evidence ?

This is just guesswork.
No it's not. It's based on the facts that
(a) the best evidence thus far shows that pork preserves as long as beef and longer than sheep;
(b) the Jews were the only people in their part of the world to prohibit pork.
 
I didn't say "than all other meats" (FWIW, your comment is perfectly coherent with what I learned during my stint in the meat industry)
But also better than sheep and lamb, see the French study.

The view in the Torah is far simpler -- eating this that or the other is "sinful" ; which etymologically means something like "a very bad mistake" ; that is to say, it has a good chance of making you ill (independently of their iron age ignorance of the reasons why).
That is a non-sequitur. I suggest you look at xterra's post. Rabbi's explain the kashrut as "it just is". There are no post-hoc rationalizations for the dietary laws. I challenge you to come up with a single Rabbi who has one.

Specifically, the trichinosis claim is suspect, as symptoms only display 2 to 7 days after infection, and only with a large burden of worms. The connection with eating pork - which wasn't popular anyway in the Middle East for other reasons - would be very hard to make for anyone.
 
True, just at the graduate level, under actual writers of contemporary literature. But that doesn't change the fact that your hyperbole about the bible as uniform and universal example of seminal literature is not nearly as settled as you allege.

erm -- hyperbole is actually found in your transforming my description of the Torah is "seminal literature" into the suggestion that I meant a "uniform and universal example of seminal literature".

Was it Creative Writing you studied ?
 
Granted, but there need not be a singular cause, such as this one, for the taboo.

Never said there should be.

The existence of the taboo is evidence of this.

That is circular reasoning so fails as a logically sound argument.

There is no evidence that the Jews were idiots, and unable to understand the provenance of that parasite.

I have not said that the Jews were idiots - so that is either a strawman you've created or a non sequitur.

Did their understanding *need* to be "accurate" ? All that was needed was just a vague understanding of the cause to the effect -- in fact, Scripture seems to show that the understanding that they had of which foods were "clean" and which "unclean" (healthy/unhealthy) was exactly that : vague.

No it doesn't that is interpreting the Jewish scripture in the light of modern knowledge. The same as those that claim the seven day creation is really a primitive statement of the big-bang and the formation of the universe. And indeed the Jewish scripture contradicts empirical evidence that the Jews themselves could have obtained.
Non sequitur.

No - if you want to understand the knowledge level of a particular society and/or culture looking at their neighbours and so on can provide a measure.

And there is no measure that shows the Jews had indeed come to what is elsewhere in the world a very modern understanding and concept of parasites and diseases.

...snip...

One could contend that you are looking for a justification of the idea that the taboo can only have been irrational.

Not based on anything I've actually posted in this thread you can't. Again I fear that you are engaging in the creation of strawmen.
 
The only hypothesis that fits both non-food rituals and taboos, and all different food taboos is the 'them' vs 'us' reinforcement of belonging to the group hypothesis.

Except I thought many peoples in the region also had a pig-taboo. Some did and some didn't, but having a pig-taboo wasn't really going t distinguish you from a lot of the other groups in the area (especially during the formative years of the Israelites).

I think it's just historical oddity. Different groups of people come up with different superstitions. One group thinks yellow is an unlucky color. Another group thinks Moloch wants child sacrifice to make it rain. Another group has a long list of dietary restrictions. The anti-yellow people and the pro-Moloch tribes get conquered and wiped out. By historical happenstance, the odd-diet group survives. but we could just as easily right now be wondering why people think yellow is unlucky and be coming up with all sorts of post hoc justifications for that as well.
 
erm -- hyperbole is actually found in your transforming my description of the Torah is "seminal literature" into the suggestion that I meant a "uniform and universal example of seminal literature".
Excuse me. IMO you've exaggerated the literary quality of the OT as "stunningly high." Also, I would replace the word "seminal" with influential, as the Hebrews were influenced by the Assyrians, etc.
Was it Creative Writing you studied ?
My scholarship was in creative writing, but my area of study was literature, which of course is essential in understanding how to write. And learning how to write enables one to understand what good writing is, and why.
 
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So no evidence.

Anecdotes from mid-19th century France are not "evidence" of the relative behaviour of meat in ~1000 BC North Africa or Middle East.

As well as your anecdotal claims. I presume you're from the USA as most posters here - correct me if I'm wrong. That's a temperate climate as well.

No such luck, I'm afraid -- I live in France, and I have professional experience concerning the preservation of meat in the French climate and its meat industry.

But they're the best data that has been presented thus far on how well meat preserves. And you totally ignored them in your previous post. If you have data that better applies to the climate of the Near East, present them. They're more pertinent than your anecdotal claims

I don't, but then again nor do you, apparently -- and they'd of course be far superiour to your own anecdotal claims concerning 19th century France, as well as to my own anecdotal experiences.

I live on the extreme South Coast of France, and have hiked the entirety of the South of France in the midst of Summer -- the French climate is simply not comparable to that of Egypt/Sinai/Palestine ; as any weather chart might inform you.

as the study dates from before modern refrigeration techniques. And I see no reason why in a Mediterranean climate, the preservation times of pork (4 days) and sheep (2 days) attested in France would suddenly be reversed.

You seem to believe that I claimed pork as being the most perishable meat on planet Earth.

I didn't.

Quite apart from which, as regards your reference to mutton and lamb -- the Torah instructs that it must be eaten immediately after sacrifice, and any remains from the meal must be immediately incinerated.

You claim it, you prove it. That's an obvious rule. The fact that you don't prove, or even attempt to argue your case, suggests to me that you don't have any argument at all.

Non sequitur.

Just write down "I disagree with you because XYZ" next time, this "burden of proof" gambit being both useless and pointless.

and which part of "I was just being sarcastic" did you fail to understand ?

So did the Egyptians and the Babylonians. We have writings from them from around 3000 BC. Many biblical scholars put all of the Bible post-exilic, i.e. from around 500 BC onwards. In comparison to their neighbours, the Hebrews were illiterate goat herders, and there is not a single sign of an advanced, structured society. It's disingenuous of you to snip out just that part so you don't have to address that point.

oh dear oh dear ...

Recent Biblical philology and archaeological discoveries of fragments of older editions of the Torah have in fact dated the writing of its earlier volumes to around circa 3000 BC IIRC

The 500 BC theory is BTW completely preposterous, and based on zero evidence.

How many people read the literature of your Egyptians and Babylonians today, compared to the literature of these "illiterate goatherds" ???

Your claims are not merely evidence-free --- they actually fly in the face of the most blatant evidence imaginable.

"Illiterate goatherds" do NOT produce ANYTHING like the Book of Job, the Song of Solomon, nor the Book of Judith.

They make goat cheese instead.

No it's not. It's based on the facts that
(a) the best evidence thus far shows that pork preserves as long as beef and longer than sheep;
(b) the Jews were the only people in their part of the world to prohibit pork.

These facts have exactly nothing to do with tapeworm.

"the Jews were the only people in their part of the world to prohibit pork"

The Americans are the only people in the world to have ever attacked a foreign nation with nuclear weapons.

Such statements prove nothing.

(you're using magical reasoning -- the fact that the Jews were the only people to do so does not prohibit any potential causes for this taboo)
 
...Recent Biblical philology and archaeological discoveries of fragments of older editions of the Torah have in fact dated the writing of its earlier volumes to around circa 3000 BC IIRC ...

Could you post up the source material for that claim, please?
 
Nope -- a study of the behaviour of pork meat after butchering, in the 21st century or the 19th, in Europe, in the Industrialisation or post-Industrialisation period, is of little relevance to the conclusions of iron age inhabitants of the Middle East/North Africa regarding its sanitary qualities.
So cite an equivalent study.
Your unsupported opinion is worthless.

erm -- no.
Ehhh, yes. You may not understand logic and logical reasoning to understand the concept of circular reasoning but you post was an example of it.
 

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