WTC Dust Study Feb 29, 2012 by Dr. James Millette

Some of you may remember that a couple months ago I wished JTL good luck in his research and told him I was no longer interested in dialogue or debate with him. His continuing abusive, distorted, condescending diatribes against me personally are not worthy of a response.

I know many of you are interested in my conversation with Jim Millette, which happened April 3. He is still very interested in continued work on this project. I don't talk publicly about his ruminations and ideas re WTC dust for obvious reasons. For now, suffice to say that he is overwhelmed with forensic and other dust-analysis jobs but hopes he can get back to the WTC research before TOO long! He knows how very eager I am to see more work done on all this.

BTW the opera I spent 20 years composing, From the Realm of the Shadow, is being performed live for the first time in New York May 2-3 at Broadway and 120th! Anyone in the area who wants to come, let me know and I'll link you to the ticket office (cheap tix, $15-$20 only). Looks like at least two "Truther" and one "debunker" friend(s) are coming, not that my opera has anything whatsoever to do with 9/11.
 
Can we add this to the list of things that Harrit et al. themselves didn't find?

So, assuming that we can disregard the other constituents, that's about 80% iron. On what planet would that constitute "high-purity iron"?

(I actually found a company that advertises "high purity (99.5%) iron microspheres." They also advertise a product with "about 95% iron content." Can anyone guess how that classify that? Right in one: low purity.)

And this company.

It is creating iron rich microspheres by igniting chips found in WTC dust?

MM
 
And this company.

It is creating iron rich microspheres by igniting chips found in WTC dust?

MM

LOL. No, the company is creating high-purity iron microspheres from scrap iron, not "iron rich microspheres." It probably wouldn't be able to sell those. But that doesn't mean that you can't try.
 
It makes perfect sense that his excuse is that the paper needs more work before it is published, even though the guys that paid for it already think it is conclusive as it is.

If you think that's bad, imagine the trouble Millette would have publishing a study that demonstrates that dust from his own house doesn't contain active thermitic material. Probably not possible no matter how much effort he put into the manuscript -- at least at a reputable journal.
 
To expand on MarkLindeman's point: for the purposes of this forum, the question we want to answer is whether there is thermite in the dust. Given the data in Harrit et al and now Millette, and a few other places, it is clear there is no thermite. So for our purposes here, the study is conclusive.

Now imagine a journal editor getting a paper with the conclusion "These red grey chips from WTC are not thermite." What journal would care about that? Only a tiny fringe of conspiracy theorists ever thought there was thermite. The conclusion is not interesting outside a tiny community of CTists and debunkers.

To get published there has to be something more to say about the nature of the dust.

And editing a paper into publishable form is not a trivial task either.
 
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To expand on MarkLindeman's point: for the purposes of this forum, the question we want to answer is whether there is thermite in the dust. Given the data in Harrit et al and now Millette, and a few other places, it is clear there is no thermite. So for our purposes here, the study is conclusive.

Now imagine a journal editor getting a paper with the conclusion "These red grey chips from WTC are not thermite." What journal would care about that? Only a tiny fringe of conspiracy theorists ever thought there was thermite. The conclusion is not interesting outside a tiny community of CTists and debunkers.

To get published there has to be something more to say about the nature of the dust.

And editing a paper into publishable form is not a trivial task either.
Not true Benjamin. Keep in mind that in Millette's case: 1) he has a long and distinguished history of publishing papers 2) he is internationally respected for his work (even by EPA gadfly and 9/11 Truth hero Cate Jenkins, who has stated that Millette and his company are "highly prestigious") and regularly gives presentations at international forensics forums 3) he has given two mainstage presentations at two different forums already on his WTC dust research 4) his WTC dust presentations were well-received and well attended 5) these presentations are also useful teaching tools for the many forensics interns who sign up for these conferences. When Millette is ready to publish and has the time to prepare it, he will have no trouble finding a journal.
 
Not true Benjamin. Keep in mind that in Millette's case: 1) he has a long and distinguished history of publishing papers 2) he is internationally respected for his work (even by EPA gadfly and 9/11 Truth hero Cate Jenkins, who has stated that Millette and his company are "highly prestigious") and regularly gives presentations at international forensics forums 3) he has given two mainstage presentations at two different forums already on his WTC dust research 4) his WTC dust presentations were well-received and well attended 5) these presentations are also useful teaching tools for the many forensics interns who sign up for these conferences. When Millette is ready to publish and has the time to prepare it, he will have no trouble finding a journal.

Chris, I know nothing about the journal structure in Millette's field. In political science, it is not uncommon for leading scholars to give well-attended mainstage presentations that wouldn't normally be publishable in major PS journals. The national association actually created a journal partly to accommodate work that might interest students and/or a broader audience, but doesn't advance any research project within the discipline.

If Millette is talking about where to publish this, presumably he has a good idea about where to do it. I would guess that the apparent "dog bites man" nature of the research -- provisionally assuming that there isn't much controversy about WTC dust apart from the ginned-up thermite controversy, and that the research isn't methodologically innovative -- has some bearing on where he publishes. Millette's reputation probably makes it easier for him to publish this, surely makes it easier for him to invest the time in research, and also reduces any pressure he might feel to publish quickly: it isn't as if his career needs the validation.

Regardless of what particular pieces of this I might be wrong about, avid adherents of the nanothermite hypothesis would understand the world better if they placed less emphasis on the supposed risks of challenging the Official Story, and recognized the costs of researching whether dust is dust and other premises that aren't widely construed as controversial a priori.

ETA: I'll leave that facetious synopsis alone -- but part of the context here is that making this work publishable, at least in the form and forum that Millette prefers, almost certainly entails more work than would be necessary to demonstrate that the dust doesn't contain nanothermite.
 
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True Mark. All I'm saying is that in this case, there are no barriers to publishing except Jim Millette's time, which he is spending keeping up with the demands of running his company.
 
Chris Mohr, Feb. 29 2012, post 1 of WTC Dust Study Thread:
Why did he do such a thorough study at such a low cost? He is doing a lot more with this study than just doing a job and reporting his findings. It was the centerpiece of three major presentations by his lab at the American Association of Forensic Scientists 2012 convention:

http://www.mvainc.com/2012/01/13/feb...nnual-meeting/

In addition, the results will soon be published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

Mohr, April 8 2013, same thread more than a year later:
All I'm saying is that in this case, there are no barriers to publishing except Jim Millette's time, which he is spending keeping up with the demands of running his company.

His time? All he has to do is to submit the paper to a journal. You said more than a year ago that Millette was already presenting his results and that it was about to get published. What is going on with this guy? Why would he present a result that he knew was not fit for a journal?:eye-poppi
 
Chris Mohr, Feb. 29 2012, post 1 of WTC Dust Study Thread:


Mohr, April 8 2013, same thread more than a year later:


His time? All he has to do is to submit the paper to a journal. You said more than a year ago that Millette was already presenting his results and that it was about to get published. What is going on with this guy? Why would he present a result that he knew was not fit for a journal?:eye-poppi

My guess is, Millette knows that the truthers will never respond and he doesn't need to waste his time.

Why aren't you asking Jones & Co to respond ? They have run away can't you see that :rolleyes:

Where are all the truthers jtl ?
 
Chris Mohr, Feb. 29 2012, post 1 of WTC Dust Study Thread:


Mohr, April 8 2013, same thread more than a year later:


His time? All he has to do is to submit the paper to a journal. You said more than a year ago that Millette was already presenting his results and that it was about to get published. What is going on with this guy? Why would he present a result that he knew was not fit for a journal?:eye-poppi
:eye-poppi-Jones' evidence for thermite...

We already have the results from Millette. Jones has a fantasy paper, peer reviewed by nuts.

Millette does not have to publish; the claims of thermite are only in the delusional minds of 911 truth followers and Jones/Harrit. Jones has no evidence; Jones has been trying to back in thermite since September 2005. After 11 and half years, Jones is wallowing in failure, as the dust is from the WTC, not thermite from some idiotic fantasy plot which Jones thinks were ceiling tiles, made of thermite. What a nut; ceiling tiles, thermite? Reality for 911 truth, idiotic claims, no evidence.

No thermite was used; how could Millette find thermite. USGS found no thermite; RJ Lee found no thermite. The only place thermite was found was in Jones mind, and that delusion has infected a few fringe 911 truth followers who don't need evidence when they have the lies of Jones and Harrit, two paranoid conspiracy theorists. The only story 60 Minutes can do on this subject is, how crazy 911 truth is. Go ask 60 Minutes, do some research and join reality.
 
Chris Mohr, Feb. 29 2012, post 1 of WTC Dust Study Thread:


Mohr, April 8 2013, same thread more than a year later:


His time? All he has to do is to submit the paper to a journal. You said more than a year ago that Millette was already presenting his results and that it was about to get published. What is going on with this guy? Why would he present a result that he knew was not fit for a journal?:eye-poppi

I do not understand the obsession with publication, especially since Millette has presented his findings at conferences. Conference presentations are a legitimate form of publicly presenting results, though admittedly (usually) not at the same level of peer review as professional journals. In addition, his preliminary report is available online, with data and some analysis. That is his data. It will not magically change if it ends up in a peer-reviewed journal. When he does publish the paper, what will change that will make his work go from completely worthless (in your eyes) to worth taking seriously?

I may have exaggerated the difficulty of publishing a paper detailing research like Millette's dust study. However, submitting a paper for publication is not just a matter of putting all the graphs and data in a file and sticking a one-sentence conclusion on the end. There is the matter of clearly explaining everything in a concise manner, including what is relevant and leaving out what is not, and getting all citations to previous research upon which his current work is based. I do not know how far along his manuscript is with respect to these goals, or whether he wants more data to say exactly what brand of paint he found. Not to mention the fact that he runs his own lab with paying costumers, which presumably is a non-trivial time commitment.

The point is, there are countless legitimate reasons that can explain why he still has not published. Your claim that unpublished (or slowly published) research implies fraud is false.
 
However, submitting a paper for publication is not just a matter of putting all the graphs and data in a file and sticking a one-sentence conclusion on the end.

Sure it is. As long as the check clears. :D

Does anyone have a list of the professional conferences (in the relevant field) the Harrit et al paper has been presented?

I know that the "relevant field" aspect was covered in respect to what the authors hoped to achieve by the Toronto hearings. I'm talking real world conferences with qualified people that are not just looking to sell a DVD.

I far as I remember this paper has never been presented anywhere, except where Millette has introduced it.
 
Achieving peer-reviewed status, elevates a paper's validity. It is proof that a paper has been judged by outside scientific experts.

MM

Outside?

The referee, David Griscom, is not an outsider. He was known beforehand as a Truther and had a letter published on Steven Jones's own "Journal of 9/11 studies".
The only sense in which Griscom is an ouitsider is that he is clearly outside of his field of expertise:
- He has zero experience with forensics
- He has zero experience with SEM-EDS
- He has zero experience with DSC

Griscom clearly was hand-picked by Jones himself for his being a Truther, not for being an eminent expert in the relevant scientific fields and methods. Griscomn is not an outside scientific expert, he is an inside scientific non-expert.
 
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I do not understand the obsession with publication, especially since Millette has presented his findings at conferences. Conference presentations are a legitimate form of publicly presenting results, though admittedly (usually) not at the same level of peer review as professional journals. In addition, his preliminary report is available online, with data and some analysis. That is his data. It will not magically change if it ends up in a peer-reviewed journal. When he does publish the paper, what will change that will make his work go from completely worthless (in your eyes) to worth taking seriously?

I may have exaggerated the difficulty of publishing a paper detailing research like Millette's dust study. However, submitting a paper for publication is not just a matter of putting all the graphs and data in a file and sticking a one-sentence conclusion on the end. There is the matter of clearly explaining everything in a concise manner, including what is relevant and leaving out what is not, and getting all citations to previous research upon which his current work is based. I do not know how far along his manuscript is with respect to these goals, or whether he wants more data to say exactly what brand of paint he found. Not to mention the fact that he runs his own lab with paying costumers, which presumably is a non-trivial time commitment.

The point is, there are countless legitimate reasons that can explain why he still has not published. Your claim that unpublished (or slowly published) research implies fraud is false.

Before we lay into the truthers on the meaning and importance of publication, keep in mind that some of us on the "debunker" side bear some responsibility for why they act that way over publication and peer review. It's not total fault, since we didn't mean for things to turn out like they did, but it is partially due to what we said.

Way back in 2006, when Steven Jones was first making the rounds with his claims, many of us - myself included - were vocal about the scientist making claims without scientific merit. Our critique back then was that, if Jones was so blasted sure of himself, why doesn't he conduct a formal study and submit his findings to the relevant journal for peer review? The idea was that if the truthers, plus Jones himself, were going to make/allow for his credentials to be used as an argument from authority, then he'd better back it up by actually following the accepted academic route for publishing and validating knowledge.

Now of course back then, the challenge was simply a critique, not a true expectation of action. However, given that, if the goal was to validate the findings, my guess is that we all would've expected an attempt to submit to legit publishers, then complaints about how the fix is in when the paper got rejected. What we did NOT predict was that Jones would go the Self Licking Ice Cream Cone route and create a group (Scholars for 9/11 Truth) to give the appearance of semi-legit, academic status to the notion of truther research, nor to then go the vanity publishing route in a journal with nearly nonexistent editorial controls (see prior threads, most especially the ones quoting Peter Suber, for background) to add more of a façade of legitimacy to his work.

Most of us who spoke had at least a bare understanding of the role publication plays in creating academic knowledge, which includes the vetting role. But we never took the criticism that far because we simply underestimated just how much will there was on the conspiracy peddling side to be duplicitous. So now, the narrative that gets circulated is that a researcher found evidence of thermite, and not that a researcher went way outside his professional competence avoided all accepted academic routes to disguise his research in a false cloak of academic respectability, and still turned out a paper with evidence that contradicts the conclusions. But now, the truthers keep on about publication and even try to turn the argument around (which, as an aside, is the biggest demonstration of cargo-cult argumentativeness I've ever seen. Aping the form of a critique does not automatically lend it the depth that the original has, but that doesn't stop the conspiracy narrative cheerleaders).

Anyway, to roll this all up: This entire topic of peer review and publication is a most illustrative example of unexpected consequences that you can find in this subforum. The original idea behind the original critique was to illuminate and inform, not to show a way a process can be circumvented. But again, it's been manifest from Day 1 that the truthers goals have never been about discovering the truth, so in hindsight I guess it shouldn't be surprising.
 
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Oystein:
The referee, David Griscom,

THE referee? Just because one referee has identified himself does not mean he was the only referee.

Griscomn is not an outside scientific expert, he is an inside scientific non-expert.

Griscom is an expert that started his career identifying dust for NASA some 40 years ago, and has published at least 100 papers. I understand that you guys must feel angry about Millette having taken you for a ride, but attacking Griscom´s credibility only makes you guys look pathetic.

[SNIP]In all, this has been a very sad end for Millette´s preliminary report.:jaw-dropp

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