Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Cuddles]

The original continuation thread was once again getting rather long, so here's another less full one. The previous thread can be found here.

Posted By: Cuddles

 

[Rare Truth]

Thank you for the new thread, Cuddles!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

continued from old thread...

Can you explain for me why you think the legality of George's actions is relevant to whether or not he will be able to claim self-defense here under the appropriate statutes?

Based on what you said below, I assumed you had some thought that his actions prior to the altercation were relevant:

because the bare facts of the case are still that George saw someone he thought was suspicious, escalated the situation in an unwarranted manner even though as a NW member, he was expected to know better,

Perhaps I misunderstood your point there.

Can you explain for me the relevance of whether anything about TM's actions needs to be "justified"?

In case you didn't read what you snipped above, FLA statute can be read very simply: It isn't reasonable to respond to simple battery with deadly force. You're not allowed to shoot someone because they punched you in the nose.

I read it. It was right before your claim:

[SIZE=-1]The TL;DR version: [SIZE=-1]George doesn't have a case[SIZE=-1] under 782.02.

In case you didn't see my response, here it is again:
I think you missed the word attempt in the statute, and the idea that it was stopped before it became felony assault.

Perhaps if you don't think GZ has a self defense case, you should let MOM know that.

It's clear that TM punched George in the nose, because he did have a busted and bloody nose, after all. However, that still is only simple battery, and as I have said elsewhere, simple battery is indicative of "fistfight" and not anything that would meet the definitions of justifiable force in 782 or 776.

So GZ wasn't in fear of great bodily injury because he stopped TM before he committed great bodily injury, and therefor his injuries are less than they could have been ? Huh ?

I'm really not understanding your logic here.

 

[phonebook]

It's clear that TM punched George in the nose, because he did have a busted and bloody nose, after all. However, that still is only simple battery, and as I have said elsewhere, simple battery is indicative of "fistfight" and not anything that would meet the definitions of justifiable force in 782 or 776.

And what about when the person that inflicted that "busted and bloody" (diagnosed as fractured) nose is on top of the injured person, continuing to hit them, or, at minimum, actively preventing them from getting up/escaping? What about the 2 lacerations on the back of this person's head that two EMT's suggested would likely need stitches?

What evidence is there that this was a "fight" as opposed to an assault? Who claimed to have seen a fight? Did GZ claim to have been in a fight?

 

[Unabogie]

So GZ wasn't in fear of great bodily injury because he stopped TM before he committed great bodily injury, and therefor his injuries are less than they could have been ? Huh ?

I'm really not understanding your logic here.

Hooray for shiny new threads!

This is why the picture of George keeps getting posted. He didn't claim he was in fear of great bodily injury or that he was in the middle of a light simple battery that was going to escalate to grievous bodily harm. He claimed he was already in the middle of an attempted murder which included "whaling" on his head with what "felt like bricks", an attempted suffocation, and repeated, forceful slamming of his head against concrete that made his head feel like it would "explode". And of course, he "felt" like Trayvon had seen his gun through Trayvon's own left leg and through George's hip and reacted to that by reaching for it and exclaiming "you're gonna die tonight ************". All of that assault would be, if true, much more than simple battery, so if the prosecution can convince a jury that the actual fight was a mundane fist fight, and convince them that George exaggerated his injuries and nature of the fight - which only lasted for what, a minute or two? - then no, it won't be enough for George to claim he was afraid it might have then change into a different kind of battery in which he WOULD be justified in escalating to deadly force.

Rest assured, those photos will be front and center in this trial.

 

[Unabogie]

And what about when the person that inflicted that "busted and bloody" (diagnosed as fractured) nose/QUOTE]

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0413/petition.pdf

"likely broken nose."
~Mark O'Mara

Even his legal team isn't saying that's 100%. Perhaps you should alert them to your information?

 

[Rare Truth]

Hooray for shiny new threads!

This is why the picture of George keeps getting posted. He didn't claim he was in fear of great bodily injury or that he was in the middle of a light simple battery that was going to escalate to grievous bodily harm. He claimed he was already in the middle of an attempted murder which included "whaling" on his head with what "felt like bricks", an attempted suffocation, and repeated, forceful slamming of his head against concrete that made his head feel like it would "explode". And of course, he "felt" like Trayvon had seen his gun through Trayvon's own left leg and through George's hip and reacted to that by reaching for it and exclaiming "you're gonna die tonight ************". All of that assault would be, if true, much more than simple battery, so if the prosecution can convince a jury that the actual fight was a mundane fist fight, and convince them that George exaggerated his injuries and nature of the fight - which only lasted for what, a minute or two? - then no, it won't be enough for George to claim he was afraid it might have then change into a different kind of battery in which he WOULD be justified in escalating to deadly force.

Rest assured, those photos will be front and center in this trial.

Serino: "He sounded scripted."

 

[Unabogie]

Serino: "He sounded scripted."

Oh, do you have a link to that or more context?

 

[phonebook]

Perhaps you should actually read what you're quoting:

At the scene, EMTs observed that Mr. Zimmerman had bleeding lacerations to the back of his head consistent with his head being struck on or by a hard object, facial cuts and a swollen, bleeding, and likely broken nose.

full size - http://i.imgur.com/RXMzgXg.png

Take a page from your buddy JK:

Doctor > EMT

 

[Unabogie]

Perhaps you should actually read what you're quoting:



[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/RXMzgXgl.png[/qimg]

full size - http://i.imgur.com/RXMzgXg.png

Take a page from your buddy JK:

George's own lawyer > your opinion.

 

[Noztradamus]

I call the comfy chair!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0413/petition.pdf

"likely broken nose."
~Mark O'Mara

Even his legal team isn't saying that's 100%. Perhaps you should alert them to your information?

Dishonest much ? You really want to claim MOM said that ?

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0413/petition.pdf

At the scene, EMTs observed that Mr. Zimmerman had bleeding lacerations to the back of his head consistent with his head being struck on or by a hard object, facial cuts and a swollen, bleeding, and likely broken nose.App F: 57, 60-62.

And what is in app F ? Why, the testimony of Kevin O'rourke, to which MOM is referring.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

And look, somehow GZ had blood on his cheeks ... almost as if someone had tried to cover his mouth...a "substantial amount" ...

 

[Unabogie]

Dishonest much ? You really want to claim MOM said that ?

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0413/petition.pdf

At the scene, EMTs observed that Mr. Zimmerman had bleeding lacerations to the back of his head consistent with his head being struck on or by a hard object, facial cuts and a swollen, bleeding, and likely broken nose.App F: 57, 60-62.

And what is in app F ? Why, the testimony of Kevin O'rourke, to which MOM is referring.

[qimg]http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag121/thel8elvis/fractured_nose_zpsf7dbcff0.jpg[/qimg]

I quoted his exact words. Who else wrote that sentence?

"At the scene, EMTs observed that Mr. Zimmerman had bleeding lacerations to the back of his head consistent with his head being struck on or by a hard object, facial cuts and a swollen, bleeding, and likely broken nose."

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I quoted his exact words. Who else wrote that sentence?

"At the scene, EMTs observed that Mr. Zimmerman had bleeding lacerations to the back of his head consistent with his head being struck on or by a hard object, facial cuts and a swollen, bleeding, and likely broken nose."

Yes, he is paraphrasing the EMTs words, which you have dishonestly turned into:

"likely broken nose."
~Mark O'Mara

Even his legal team isn't saying that's 100%. Perhaps you should alert them to your information?

I am sure if MOM had written " the EMT diagnosed GZ with a broken nose" you would be yelling and screaming "no no no the EMT only said 'what looked to be a fractured nose'"

 

[Rare Truth]

Oh, do you have a link to that or more context?

It's in Serino's statements to the FBI.

"Serino told the FBI that Zimmerman had a “little hero complex” and sounded “scripted.”

Don't have a link to the PDF handy. I'm out teh door in a few minutes on some business.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Hooray for shiny new threads!

This is why the picture of George keeps getting posted. He didn't claim he was in fear of great bodily injury or that he was in the middle of a light simple battery that was going to escalate to grievous bodily harm. He claimed he was already in the middle of an attempted murder which included "whaling" on his head with what "felt like bricks", an attempted suffocation, and repeated, forceful slamming of his head against concrete that made his head feel like it would "explode".

All those things would be classified great bodily injury. So he did in fact claim he was in fear of great bodily injury.

Glad we agree on that.

And of course, he "felt" like Trayvon had seen his gun through Trayvon's own left leg and through George's hip and reacted to that by reaching for it and exclaiming "you're gonna die tonight ************". All of that assault would be, if true, much more than simple battery,

Right again. Which is why I am so confused remirol is claiming GZ doesn't have a self defense case.

so if the prosecution can convince a jury that the actual fight was a mundane fist fight, and convince them that George exaggerated his injuries and nature of the fight - which only lasted for what, a minute or two? - then no, it won't be enough for George to claim he was afraid it might have then change into a different kind of battery in which he WOULD be justified in escalating to deadly force.

Rest assured, those photos will be front and center in this trial.

And what evidence will they use to convince the jury of this ? Testimony from serino that the injuries were consistent with GZs story ? Jedi Mind Trick ?

Oh I know, they'll just show pictures and offer a fallacious argument from incredulity as proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Rare Truth]

And look, somehow GZ had blood on his cheeks ... almost as if someone had tried to cover his mouth...a "substantial amount" ...

[qimg]http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag121/thel8elvis/bloodoncheeks_zps62f5850e.jpg[/qimg]

Quick! Grab the bloody cheek pic!

 

[Rare Truth]

Yes, he is paraphrasing the EMTs words, which you have dishonestly turned into:
I am sure if MOM had written " the EMT diagnosed GZ with a broken nose" you would be yelling and screaming "no no no the EMT only said 'what looked to be a fractured nose'"

Actually, those were the words in the report of the Physicians Assistant who treated George.

No doctor actually ever treated George.

 

[Rare Truth]

Yes, he is paraphrasing the EMTs words, which you have dishonestly turned into:

​

I am sure if MOM had written " the EMT diagnosed GZ with a broken nose" you would be yelling and screaming "no no no the EMT only said 'what looked to be a fractured nose'"

EMT's don't diagnose broken noses.