Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

Just a quick, simple question for you:

At the time George Zimmerman fired his gun, did he have A) A less clear idea of how severe his injuries are than we do now, B) Exactly the same understanding of those injuries that we have now or C) A clearer idea of the severity of those injuries than we have now, sitting here with pictures and doctor's reports etc available to us more than a year later?

It's not about the severity of his injuries, but rather the severity of the attack he describes which does not match the severity of his injuries.

When a jury hears how he embellished his story, I don't see what reason they will have to believe him when he claims he was in reasonable fear for his life.

 

[12AX7]

He had two lacerations on the back of his head (one larger than the other). He had many scrapes/abrasions elsewhere on his face. He suffered all of that after first suffering a fractured nose, and screams for over 40 seconds and still this beating carries on. Imagine what GZ describes, that TM is on top of him, slamming his head against the ground, and punching him repeatedly.

Such a savage beating. George barely escaped with his life.

 

[johnny karate]

He chased the suspect even though a prudent and reasonable person would have stayed in his car. He continued to do it after the dispatcher told him not to because he wasn't going to let this ******* get away, since he said it twice: "they always get away". He caught up with Trayvon and started arguing with him. Either he tried to grab him or refused to identify himself and went for his phone/or gun. A fight ensued that he got the raw end of, but was in no way life threatening. He lost control of his temper and shot the kid in anger. Then he lied to the police about what happened to leave out his own culpability and make the kid seem scarier and more aggressive than he was. And some people allowed their biases to take over and believed the implausible story because they instinctively believe young black males are more prone to irrational violence than other people. When police were pressured to take a closer look his story fell apart under scrutiny. That's it. It's not a complicated story. Just a paranoid yahoo with anger issues who made a huge and tragic mistake and he's going to pay for it with his freedom.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me.

And I believe a major component was that Zimmerman was convinced Martin was a criminal, which probably greatly informed his actions. I'm sure he thought he could shoot some thug trying to break into houses, claim self-defense, and there wouldn't be too much fuss.

It was only when he realized he actually killed some kid walking home from the store who was staying in the neighborhood that he realized he was sunk, and the embellishments began in earnest.

 

[Unabogie]

Such a savage beating. George barely escaped with his life.

[qimg]http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u613/Binary3/zimmerman-horizontal-mugshot_zps909dbad9.jpg[/qimg]

No bandaids, clean shirt, no bruises on his body, and a nose that was only "likely broken", even by his own lawyer's words.

At the scene, EMTs observed
that Mr. Zimmerman had bleeding lacerations to the back of his head consistent
with his head being struck on or by a hard object, facial cuts and a swollen,
bleeding, and likely broken nose.

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0413/petition.pdf

When these minor scrapes are combined with all of his crazy stories and contradictions, I don't know how the defense will counter it. Does he even take the stand? Oy. That will be epic.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Such a savage beating. George barely escaped with his life.

[qimg]http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u613/Binary3/zimmerman-horizontal-mugshot_zps909dbad9.jpg[/qimg]

Are we back to this again already ?

 

[12AX7]

None of that says "life threatening" and there's no way he thought so at the time. But he has a motive to lie, of course. His life depends on police believing he killed in self-defense. But his injuries don't support it. And that's that.

Yep.

And when faced with this, George and his defenders then packpedal into some story about how Trayvon saw the gun and "went for it", and that became the 'fear for his life' moment.

 

[12AX7]

Are we back to this again already ?

I know it's hard to see. That pic, taken just hours later, showing the results of Trayvon's savage beating of poor George, seems to get you every time.

 

[Rare Truth]

I think it's as close as we'll likely be able to get until we hear the witnesses and the state's case.

Another thing that I found interesting is that George's assault on a police officer and an assault on his fiance happened just one month apart. He was really coming unglued that month.

In 2012, he was apparently months behind on his rent, his wife was toying around with online nursing classes, and he was flunking out of school and about to be expelled. Again, not a healthy place in his life and as Frank Taaffe said, "he was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore". I think he was dealing with rage issues and took it out on someone he thought was a predator.

Again, it's a simple story and one that certainly fits the evidence better than any story he fed the police about what happened that night.

I'm sure his defenders will be along shortly to tell me why I'm full of it.

I think the psychotropic drugs he was taking also played a role, mostly the part of having changed prescriptions a month before. It takes about that long to see the full effect if a prescription for those type of drugs, and the one he was on previously was changed because of ...mood swings.

Put those things together, and you've got a powder keg.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

When someone asks me what I think happened that night, I'll refer them to this post by unaboogie. I think this is as close to the truth as anything I've seen anywhere.

Except for the part you believe that:
1) GZ chased TM with his gun out
2) GZ executed TM while he was standing up instead of on top of GZ

 

[12AX7]

Except for the part you believe that:
1) GZ chased TM with his gun out

Where has this been suggested?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think the psychotropic drugs he was taking also played a role, mostly the part of having changed prescriptions a month before. It takes about that long to see the full effect if a prescription for those type of drugs, and the one he was on previously was changed because of ...mood swings.

Put those things together, and you've got a powder keg.

And we lend any credence to your medical diagnosis on an individual you have never met because ... ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I know it's hard to see. That pic, taken just hours later, showing the results of Trayvon's savage beating of poor George, seems to get you every time.

No, I just wonder why you keep posting it when you know that sustaining a certain level of injury is a complete non-factor to the legality of self-defense.

Maybe you are secretly in love with GZ and really enjoy his picture ? I don't know, but there must be some good reason you keep posting the same pics over and over.

 

[lionking]

Are we back to this again already ?

Well it might be inconvenient for you, but the case swings on the nature of GZ's injuries. He was not "savagely beaten" as his supporters claim. He used disproportionate force to end a confrontation he started. Bye, bye George.

 

[Unabogie]

No, I just wonder why you keep posting it when you know that sustaining a certain level of injury is a complete non-factor to the legality of self-defense.

Maybe you are secretly in love with GZ and really enjoy his picture ? I don't know, but there must be some good reason you keep posting the same pics over and over.

You seem to keep missing the point that this picture casts doubt on his story. And for some reason you think a jury will acquit him even if they think he lied about what happened.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

The Sharptons and Jacksons of the world can't undermine the basic tenets of our legal system and force a murder charge and a subsequent trial where sufficient evidence does not exist to justify either.

and yet...

A motion for dismissal doesn't cost anything and carries no risk.

What about the risk of getting denied and the publicity/coverage that results?

any lawyer who doesn't file an immediate motion for dismissal when the charges are supposedly baseless is doing his client an enormous disservice, to say the least.

Perhaps O'Mara's calculation was that he looked at what was going on, told George he'd never seen something like this before... and was honestly at a loss for why the case had been brought and the only explanations he could come to were along the lines of something being "afoot" and the exact sort of suspicions about motivations and political calculations that George's own brother seems to subscribe to. Perhaps after discussing this with George and telling George straight up "I don't think there's any chance she's going to grant immunity or dismiss in this climate." maybe then they came to the decision not to try those avenues together, with George having final say.

Perhaps George was even the one aggressively pushing to NOT have an immunity hearing or file for dismissal. Perhaps the same sort of mindset which caused him to talk to police endlessly without an attorney, is now making him stubbornly assist (over O'Mara's objections potentially) that he wanted a trial, and wanted all the facts to come out.

For all we know, O'Mara is wrestling against GZ's instincts behind the scenes fighting with him over whether he testifies or not (With GZ potentially insisting he wants to, just as he insisted on getting up on the stand and apologizing to Trayvon's parents, thus opening himself up to cross examination by BDLR) and fighting with him over whether they did an immunity hearing or not.

If GZ is being stubborn and naive in this way, O'Mara would certainly never tell us. It's his job to present a unified front and represent his client in the way his client wishes to be represented. Of course, at a certain point many attorneys would throw their hands up in disgust and walk off the case, but perhaps GZ is threading the needle sufficiently that he is still appeasing O'Mara's desires and instincts on enough matters, trusting his judgement on enough things, that O'Mara tolerates some of that sort of thing from him.

I don't know, this is just speculation but it does seem to fit with the unguarded, endless talking to cops without a lawyer and the "Oh you want me to take an ink blot test too? Sure!" attitude GZ had... where he was even getting ready to drive down to Jacksonville on his own dime to meet the new hit squad that had been brought on expressly to charge him.

You keep asking for people to help you understand why they aren't filing these motions, and I obviously don't KNOW but I'm speculating to try to help you out. Of course, I don't really think you're honestly curious I think you're just using rhetorical devices to be annoying.

 

[Unabogie]

I think the psychotropic drugs he was taking also played a role, mostly the part of having changed prescriptions a month before. It takes about that long to see the full effect if a prescription for those type of drugs, and the one he was on previously was changed because of ...mood swings.

Put those things together, and you've got a powder keg.

Yeah, I wonder if recent issues with medication are admissible? We used to have a lawyer posting here.

 

[Unabogie]

and yet...



What about the risk of getting denied and the publicity/coverage that results?



Perhaps O'Mara's calculation was that he looked at what was going on, told George he'd never seen something like this before... and was honestly at a loss for why the case had been brought and the only explanations he could come to were along the lines of something being "afoot" and the exact sort of suspicions about motivations and political calculations that George's own brother seems to subscribe to. Perhaps after discussing this with George and telling George straight up "I don't think there's any chance she's going to grant immunity or dismiss in this climate." maybe then they came to the decision not to try those avenues together, with George having final say.

Perhaps George was even the one aggressively pushing to NOT have an immunity hearing or file for dismissal. Perhaps the same sort of mindset which caused him to talk to police endlessly without an attorney, is now making him stubbornly assist (over O'Mara's objections potentially) that he wanted a trial, and wanted all the facts to come out.

For all we know, O'Mara is wrestling against GZ's instincts behind the scenes fighting with him over whether he testifies or not (With GZ potentially insisting he wants to, just as he insisted on getting up on the stand and apologizing to Trayvon's parents, thus opening himself up to cross examination by BDLR) and fighting with him over whether they did an immunity hearing or not.

If GZ is being stubborn and naive in this way, O'Mara would certainly never tell us. It's his job to present a unified front and represent his client in the way his client wishes to be represented. Of course, at a certain point many attorneys would throw their hands up in disgust and walk off the case, but perhaps GZ is threading the needle sufficiently that he is still appeasing O'Mara's desires and instincts on enough matters, trusting his judgement on enough things, that O'Mara tolerates some of that sort of thing from him.

I don't know, this is just speculation but it does seem to fit with the unguarded, endless talking to cops without a lawyer and the "Oh you want me to take an ink blot test too? Sure!" attitude GZ had... where he was even getting ready to drive down to Jacksonville on his own dime to meet the new hit squad that had been brought on expressly to charge him.

You keep asking for people to help you understand why they aren't filing these motions, and I obviously don't KNOW but I'm speculating to try to help you out. Of course, I don't really think you're honestly curious I think you're just using rhetorical devices to be annoying.

In this movie who do you see playing the part of George?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think it was politics that lead to further investigation.

It was politics that led to the grand jury being skipped in favor of an assured charge.

I'd lover to hear an alternate explanation of why the grand jury was bypassed.

And I think it was facts and evidence that lead to Zimmerman being charged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

On March 13, 2012, Chris Serino sent a capias request to the state's attorney recommending charges of negligent manslaughter against Zimmerman, though Serino maintains he did not believe they had the evidence to support those charges and that manslaughter was only included in the capias in order for the prosecutor's office to continue with their own investigation.

So, maybe. Or maybe pressure.

That's how we ended up here, a year later heading into a trial. Otherwise you have to start stacking up events into more and more ridiculous coincidences.

This is what happens when you go down the rabbit hole of conspiracy.

The only way to explain why people in a position to prevent what a conspiracy theorist claims is happening are not preventing it is to implicate them in the conspiracy.

You can make all the accusations about the prosecutors and judges you want, and decry this case for having a dearth of evidence against Zimmerman, but none of that explains why O'Mara is allowing any of this to happen.

There are numerous legal avenues one can avail themselves of when facing wrongful prosecution, and despite the claims that Zimmerman should not have even been charged, O'Mara has sat on his hands.

So either there is a wide-ranging conspiracy against Zimmerman that includes his own lawyer, or there is actually merit to the case against him.

It's not impossible that something can still be filed before the trial regarding the charges. I don't know the legal issues well enough to say if there is an actual controversy about the amount of information that was available at the time, and whether he truly should not have been charged. Just pointing out that there appear to be some questionable elements.

 

[12AX7]

No, I just wonder why you keep posting it when you know that sustaining a certain level of injury is a complete non-factor to the legality of self-defense.

Then you and your fellow George supporters need to quit trying to sell people on the story of how poor George was so savagely beaten.

Maybe you are secretly in love with GZ and really enjoy his picture ? I don't know, but there must be some good reason you keep posting the same pics over and over.

Really? What are you, 14 years-old?

Well it might be inconvenient for you, but the case swings on the nature of GZ's injuries. He was not "savagely beaten" as his supporters claim. He used disproportionate force to end a confrontation he started. Bye, bye George.

This, Elvis.

You seem to keep missing the point that this picture casts doubt on his story. And for some reason you think a jury will acquit him even if they think he lied about what happened.

And this too, Elvis.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I think he knew quite well his injuries were minor. That's why he declined to go to the hospital 3 times and only went the next day when his boss made him.

Way to ignore the fact that I asked about what he knew at the time he shot his gun, not after police had arrived, the threat was removed, and EMTs had cleaned him up.

Also, how does your narrative that George drops material lies left and right square with the fact that he, if anything, actually downplayed his injuries and "hand waved" off the suggestion by EMTs that he got to the hospital?

Sounds like someone who is treating the situation for what it is, and not feathering his nest of lies because of some consciousness of guilt... sounds like someone who didn't think he was guilty of anything, and didn't think he needed to be establishing any sort of exaggerated perception of how badly hurt he was... or buying himself time at a hospital to work on his story... or anything like that.

See? Even his own lawyer isn't calling his nose factually broken.

His attorney was describing the assessment of the responding EMTs as it stood that night, on the scene.

None of that says "life threatening" and there's no way he thought so at the time.

Really? There's "no way" at all that Zimmerman thought his life was in danger? Setting aside the fact that there is no way you could possibly know that, I would think the screams alone pretty firmly establish that you are wrong on that.