Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[KatieG]

Not saying anything has been tampered with.

As for "insulting, derogatory word" ... I think "_____ punks" was a manifestation of his frustration with the burglaries, and him (correctly) pegging Trayvon as a delinquent and a criminal.
I don't think it was dripping with murderous intent, or racism, or anything of the sort.

Frustration, and probably a little bit of trying to be buddy buddy with the dispatcher mixed in.

Cite please?

 

[batvette]

Here's the 2 sentence undisputed version:

1. Trayvom Martin was walking home from the store in the rain minding his own business

That's speculatory. Zimmerman called the police to report the subject appeared to be on drugs, and, "looking at houses" or words to that effect.

George Zimmerman has no documented history of calling the police on people who are minding their own business, does he?

George Zimmerman DOES have a history of accurately reporting crimes in his neighborhood.

Trayvon Martin DOES have a history of being in possession of drugs, burglary tools AND probable stolen property- suggesting Zimmerman's observations may have been valid.

Thus your speculation he was "minding his own business" to suggest Zimmerman should be assumed to be wrong to be observing him in the first place is not to be considered.

talking to his girl on the phone.

This tends to support the idea that Zimmerman believed this young man was casing homes to break into. He may or may not have been mistaken, but it's easy to see how one(talking on the phone to a GF) could be mistaken for the other(wandering around on drugs, "looking at houses" to burgle) in the rain.

2. George Zimmerman followed, shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

George and his supporters have been trying very hard to say there was something else going on that night but they have so far failed to produce anything that stands up to scrutiny.

That version of events is not the one on the record. It's well known the most reliable witness is the first caller to 9/11, who stated he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman repeatedly striking him, and the witness said he yelled at Martin to stop and Martin continued. While the witness was on the phone, Martin was killed.

As a matter of fact, the initial crime report is titled in a way which reveals that Zimmerman was the actual victim of a crime in this event, and that is the way it will ultimately be seen by the jury.

Zimmerman was the victim of Martin's assault and battery, and Zimmerman ended this unlawful act by discharging his weapon. The question will be whether it was a crime to discharge the weapon or not.

There is no evidence so far which indicates any action by Zimmerman was unlawful before the crime committed by Martin.

If you have some, please present it.

If you need media coverage of the testimony of this witness, I would be happy to bring you up to speed on this story.

 

[phonebook]

1. Trayvom Martin was walking home from the store in the rain minding his own business talking to his girl on the phone.

Just wanted to point out that GZ never mentions this on the NEN call (that TM was "on the phone"), and it wouldn't have been obvious anyways, as TM was using a hands free device, with his hoodie up, so it would have concealed the cords, earpiece, etc., from GZ's view. Perhaps this contributed to GZ thinking TM looked suspicious, or that he was acting weird, when it wasn't clear that he was actually on the phone, conversing with someone at that time. Kinda like when you see someone from the side, and it looks like they're a crazy person, talking to themselves, then they turn and their other side is revealed, showing that they have a bluetooth headset on.

 

[Dan O.]

Not sure if this will change your interpretation of that, but there is no "and" said there.

Are you listening to the tape or just looking at someone else's transcription? George might have dropped the "d" but he does say it. I tried to be very carful in making this transcription. I selected each phrase and replayed it at both normal and reduced speed until I had it exactly right.

You should put some effort into actually finding the truth sometime.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Cite please?

1.) 3 suspensions at second high school (I believe early on his mom indicated he'd been switched to a new high school to get away from bad influences) even if it's just the 3 suspensions at the second school, and vandalizing the school, that's a delinquent.

2.) Marijuana is illegal, and was in his system (therefore making him a criminal by definition)

Of course, I'd also include the assault on George Zimmerman but I know you won't agree with that.

 

[phonebook]

Are you listening to the tape or just looking at someone else's transcription? George might have dropped the "d" but he does say it. I tried to be very carful in making this transcription. I selected each phrase and replayed it at both normal and reduced speed until I had it exactly right.

Just listened to it again, multiple times (the same WAV recording you're using). There is no "and" there. He sorta draws out the "N" sound of "Now" a little bit, but there is no "and".

I appreciate your efforts with the transcription, and you did an excellent job.

 

[batvette]

The only cite is the knowledge Trayvon was a delinquent and a criminal.
HE WAS on suspension for, among other things, too many absences. He HAD been caught in possession of illegal drugs. He HAD been caught in possession of a burglary tool and probable stolen property, women's jewelry he could not account for.

Where the assertion becomes projecting, is the idea Zimmerman would have known anything about all that. He wouldn't. However Zimmerman followed the young man reporting he looked like he was on drugs and was looking at houses- adding there had been break ins in the area.

And what do you know, koinky-dink has it that these things were a couple of hobbies of Martin's.

 

[Dan O.]

There is no evidence so far which indicates any action by Zimmerman was unlawful before the crime committed by Martin.

Are you being selective in what you accept as "evidence"?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Where the assertion becomes projecting, is the idea Zimmerman would have known anything about all that. He wouldn't.

Yea, I certainly wasn't attempting to imply Zimmerman knew any of Trayvon's history. Just pointing out that he sized him up pretty accurately, in retrospect.

 

[batvette]

What does this have to do with the fact that Geroge Zimmerman persued, shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was doing nothing wrong and had a right to be where he was?



Tell me what this has to do with the fact that Geroge Zimmerman persued, shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was doing nothing wrong and had a right to be where he was?



Tell me what this has to do with the fact that Geroge Zimmerman persued, shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was doing nothing wrong and had a right to be where he was?



ETA:
What does this have to do with the fact that Geroge Zimmerman persued, shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was doing nothing wrong and had a right to be where he was?

At the time George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin, he was the victim of Trayvon Martin's violent, unlawful and felonious actions.

 

[KatieG]

At the time George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin, he was the victim of Trayvon Martin's violent, unlawful and felonious actions.

I'm pretty sure that's why there is a trial scheduled. There is no evidence your version of events is the truth.

 

[phonebook]

I'm pretty sure that's why there is a trial scheduled. There is no evidence your version of events is the truth.

Trials are supposed to be scheduled on sufficient evidence for a conviction. Apparently only a "special" prosecutor was able to view the evidence and conclude that was the case. Apparently enough for a 2nd degree murder charge no less.

 

[batvette]

Are you being selective in what you accept as "evidence"?

I don't think so. I did ask you to present any evidence that Zimmerman's actions were unlawful before Martin's.

What do you have?

Observing Martin was not a crime.

Following Martin to keep him in view for the police was not a crime.

We don't have any evidence to point either way about how the fight started.

We have evidence Martin was assaulting and battering Zimmerman.

So let's go back again. What do you have and what was Zimmerman's criminal activity before he was being beaten and feared for his life?

 

[batvette]

I think what Zimmerman's critics don't realize is that in these trials jurors are given specific instructions about what to consider and what to deliberate. These time frames you people are going through may have critical information in them that may ultimately reveal Martin did not start the fight, but so far that's not apparent (and may not matter)
They're going to see evidence that Zimmerman was in fear for his life and consider whether or not his actions were lawful.

If it is revealed any juror deliberates this case with this scenario in his mind:

Tell me what this has to do with the fact that Geroge Zimmerman persued, shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was doing nothing wrong and had a right to be where he was?

This will be in disregard of judicial instructions and the case will end in mistrial.

 

[KatieG]

I think what Zimmerman's critics don't realize is that in these trials jurors are given specific instructions about what to consider and what to deliberate. These time frames you people are going through may have critical information in them that may ultimately reveal Martin did not start the fight, but so far that's not apparent (and may not matter)
They're going to see evidence that Zimmerman was in fear for his life and consider whether or not his actions were lawful.

If it is revealed any juror deliberates this case with this scenario in his mind:

Tell me what this has to do with the fact that Geroge Zimmerman persued, shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was doing nothing wrong and had a right to be where he was?

This will be in disregard of judicial instructions and the case will end in mistrial.

I hope you've notified MO'M you've solved this case. No reason to go to trial since you know exactly what happened.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Good posts batvette, I agree completely.

 

[batvette]

I'm pretty sure that's why there is a trial scheduled. There is no evidence your version of events is the truth.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/17374352/trayvon-martin-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

This substantiates my statements about the account provided by the witness, completely.
Unless you can document that it is not a crime to be on top of someone, who is on their back, repeatedly striking them, i.e; assault and battery, you are wrong.

 

[KatieG]

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/17374352/trayvon-martin-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

This substantiates my statements about the account provided by the witness, completely.
Unless you can document that it is not a crime to be on top of someone, who is on their back, repeatedly striking them, i.e; assault and battery, you are wrong.

Again, you've obviously solved this case and you know all the details. Be sure to contact MO'M on Monday and tell him what you know to be the facts. Amazing he hasn't figured these things out for himself.

 

[batvette]

I hope you've notified MO'M you've solved this case. No reason to go to trial since you know exactly what happened.

Don't be silly. Do you think there is a trial scheduled because they really will get a conviction? Apparently you haven't heard, people get acquitted all the time.

It's pretty obvious to me why they went ahead with charges. If they did not, it's entirely on the head of the prosecutor to face an angry "justice for Trayvon" mob who was about to burn down the city.

No justice for trayvon because you won't prosecute. Can you imagine?

Have a trial and lose, the mob gets deflected by time, and can vent on 12 jurors. A judge. A prosecuting attorney. Police. The media.

I cannot imagine that prosecutor even considering letting the buck stop on her desk.

The Sanford PD made the right call. The mob drove everything after that and subverted the law. By mob pressure alone the officials kept it going, passing the buck to each other.

 

[phonebook]

Don't be silly. Do you think there is a trial scheduled because they really will get a conviction? Apparently you haven't heard, people get acquitted all the time.

It's pretty obvious to me why they went ahead with charges. If they did not, it's entirely on the head of the prosecutor to face an angry "justice for Trayvon" mob who was about to burn down the city.

No justice for trayvon because you won't prosecute. Can you imagine?

Have a trial and lose, the mob gets deflected by time, and can vent on 12 jurors. A judge. A prosecuting attorney. Police. The media.

I cannot imagine that prosecutor even considering letting the buck stop on her desk.

The Sanford PD made the right call. The mob drove everything after that and subverted the law. By mob pressure alone the officials kept it going, passing the buck to each other.

Great post.

ETA: This is the same reason any chance of a successful run at an immunity hearing is essentially nil in this trial as well.