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I respectfully suggest you may not live in the same society, or not in the same parts of it. I certainly don't think I live in the same society as many others, partly through geography and local culture, partly because the society we experience is mostly the subset of people we interact with.

Personally I have experienced zero problems with sexism, racism, or ableism in the solipsist community.

I don't understand.

He says X is not part of the society we live in.
I say X happens around me and since I am part of society therefore X is part of the society we live in.

You say we are talking about different societies?

So is a society then a group of beings that exhibit the characteristics that we want from them? Isn't that a straw society?

I'm confused :confused:
 
I respectfully suggest you may not live in the same society, or not in the same parts of it. I certainly don't think I live in the same society as many others, partly through geography and local culture, partly because the society we experience is mostly the subset of people we interact with.

Personally I have experienced zero problems with sexism, racism, or ableism in the solipsist community.
:confused: Do you ever tire of talking to yourself? :confused::);)
 
So is a society then a group of beings that exhibit the characteristics that we want from them? Isn't that a straw society

I mean that there isn't one worldwide "society". If you experience X, that means X happens in the society you live in. It does not mean X happens anywhere in Shangxi province, or in Luxembourg, or anywhere other than in your particular environment (although the latter seems unlikely).
 
I mean that there isn't one worldwide "society". If you experience X, that means X happens in the society you live in. It does not mean X happens anywhere in Shangxi province, or in Luxembourg, or anywhere other than in your particular environment (although the latter seems unlikely).

So if I experience X and that means that X happens in the society I live in, how does "that is not the society we live in" make sense?

Am I excluded from the society he meant? If yes then it sounds like goal post shifting. Are we just being pedantic here?
 
So if I experience X and that means that X happens in the society I live in, how does "that is not the society we live in" make sense?

Am I excluded from the society he meant? If yes then it sounds like goal post shifting. Are we just being pedantic here?

So if I experience X and that means that X happens in the society I live in, how does "that is not the society we live in" make sense?

Am I excluded from the society he meant? If yes then it sounds like goal post shifting. Are we just being pedantic here?

My whole point is that we do not live in the same society, you and I. And possibly neither does he. There are 7 billion humans in the world, organised into thousands, or millions of different societies. The only type of a society you and I definitively share, is that of being a member of JREF forums.

As for the original point, he said "unfortunately it's not the society we currently live in". It may be valid for some countries/states/cities, not so for others. I agree with you that the claim Mr.Samsa made is improbably broad and does not cover the situations you've experienced.

To further clarify, I was mostly nitpicking about the assumption that we all live in one and the same society. We don't.
 
My whole point is that we do not live in the same society, you and I. And possibly neither does he. There are 7 billion humans in the world, organised into thousands, or millions of different societies. The only type of a society you and I definitively share, is that of being a member of JREF forums.

As for the original point, he said "unfortunately it's not the society we currently live in". It may be valid for some countries/states/cities, not so for others. I agree with you that the claim Mr.Samsa made is improbably broad and does not cover the situations you've experienced.

To further clarify, I was mostly nitpicking about the assumption that we all live in one and the same society. We don't.

Okay, cool. I don't think a lot of these terms are well defined anyway and we usually end up talking past each other.
 
-snip-The A+ forums are a travesty. Not only because they are run by manipulative, pity partying liars who want to do nothing but sit in a circle jerk and talk about how special they are. Not only because they whine about their own problems, sometimes outright ignoring the problems of groups they don't like. No, it's because they could have been a genuine force for good. A real force for actual social justice, the kind of things that need to be pushed through and yet aren't.

They could have been a voice for sorely needed change in the world. Instead they are a bitter, vile little echo chamber, forcing everyone not like them out, hypocritically labelling people with offensive slurs regardless of their actual attitudes and slowly and surely drifting away, long since having gone off the deep end. With the latest fighting caused by comments from their saint and obvious leader (in a leaderless organisation naturally) PZ it looks like they might finally turn in on themselves and burn themselves alive, figuratively speaking. Good riddance. Maybe when this pack of wolves and jackals are gone we can have a group who will do something. A group who really will get rid of the racists and sexists in the sceptical and atheist movements, who will work on marginalised groups getting equal rights and better chances in life and who will actually, really make a damn difference in the world. That's what we need, not this poisonous little clique.

Well said Mark - you said everything I think about the A+ forum, but in a much better and more coherent manner than I could. Great post.
 
It looks like CFI is trying the olive-branch approach. (too bad they are also tainted)

An Open Letter to the Secular Community

I have this sinking feeling that, when reading lines such as
Insults, slurs, expressions of hatred, and threats undermine our shared values . . .
We should listen more
we should apply the principle of charity
, those who really should take such advice to heart will either:

a) wholeheartedly agree, because they believe that the advice was intended for other people, or

b) vehemently object, because they believe that such advice is intended to suppress their views and preserve an oppressive status quo.

<sigh>
Or maybe I'm just getting old and cynical.
 
It looks like CFI is trying the olive-branch approach. (too bad they are also tainted)

I must have missed that. How are they tainted and in which direction?

By the way, is it only you and I now who are still untainted and objective? :D
 
The Hennsley issue a couple.of months ago is what I am talking about.
I personally do claim to have a monopoly on objectivity with this issue. But I can rightly claim the evidence is against the aplussers.
 
Hmm, this logo isn't really a good one for an atheist group of any stripe, I'd say. It looks like it's "A + theism", which implies that it's the logo of a group of religious people. Surely the "+" should be the "t" of "theism"?
 
Hmm, this logo isn't really a good one for an atheist group of any stripe, I'd say. It looks like it's "A + theism", which implies that it's the logo of a group of religious people. Surely the "+" should be the "t" of "theism"?

But that would make it A + Heism, and as we all know, men , especially old, white ones are not welcome in the New World Order.
I suggest A + Sheism to reflect the feminsit agenda.:D
 
Carrier is scary because of his witch hunt tactics. Who's the "Joan of Arc" person in the video?

There is a suspicious absence of the Carrier speech on /r/atheismplus forum... would it be because they don't actually follow things like the American Atheist convention?

Additionally, although some might not like Thunderf00ts take on this, it is foolish to say he has flagging popularity when his 'minutes watched' ranking is FAR above anything produced by the Aplussers or FtB
 
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