Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Dan O.]

I'm sorry, in all those awesome responses I missed your explanation of why an illuminated keychain flashlight would be found 6 feet away from the TEE ?

You and George have a serious issue of selective memory loss.

 

[Unabogie]

We covered this, and 15 seconds is not correct.

You're half right. We did cover it. And the Honda Ridgeline manual clearly states that if you remove the keys, and open the door, the chimes start. Check. Then if you close the door with the lights on, they stay on for precisely 15 seconds.

Sgtbaker even made a video of herself demoing her own truck.

Page 77 of this doc.

http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/om/AJC080/AJC0808OM.pdf

Don't make me post it again in two weeks, ok?

The automatic lighting off feature
turns off the headlights, all other
exterior lights, and the instrument
panel lights within 15 seconds of
removing the key from the ignition
switch and closing the driver’s door.

So to recap:

1. George claimed he was walking slowly. Not even a fast walk.
2. The lights from his truck went out within 15 seconds.
3. He also claimed his flashlight was not working, which is why (a) he couldn't start back to his truck right away and (b) he didn't see the devastating blow coming.
4. The majority of time he was on RVC, waiting in the rain, for the courage to walk back 30 feet to Twin Trees. When he did start back, he says he never even stopped at the T for a second to look for the kid. He was done with it, back to the truck and no more looking for the suspect.

Therefore, Trayvon Martin could not, in any known universe, have seen him from his father's house and circled back to attack him.

 

[Cylinder]

witness 12:
FDLE:
Crosby: And were they both on the ground?
W12: No. One was on top of the other. I don't know which one.
Crosby: Okay. Were you able to tell from where you were looking through your living room window what these people were wearing?
W12: All I saw while they were on the ground was dark colors. I don't know what... It was just dark.

W12: I know it was big... he was big.
Veaudry: The guy on top.
W12: Well, maybe, yeah, kinda, well... I know there's a guy on the floor and a guy on top. I can't really say how big the guy is, 'cause guy, you know, comparing what's big and small.

BDLR
de la Rionda: How would you describe their physique at all, the guy on top or the guy on bottom?
W12: I know, after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their pictures, I think Zimmerman is definitely on top because of his size.

One witness maybe, yeah, kinda ... described GZ on top.

What's missing there is the timing of the observation. In her FDLE interview, W12 expresses certainty that she observed the man on top after hearing the fatal shot. She narrated the same thing twice - heard yelling, looked out once and saw nothing, heard a shot, looked out again and saw a man on top of another. Even if she could make a good estimate of size while not being able to notice other, commensurate detail like basic clothing description and she could somehow extrapolate that size detail from a photo of Zimmerman that's 70+ pounds heavier than his weight at the time and photos of Martin that were 4 years old, that narrative corroborates Zimmerman's account - that after he got up he walked back, straddled Martin, and checked his hands.

Six days later in the BDLR interview she changes the timing - this time expressing confusion between observations and talking about conclusions drawn from television coverage.

 

[Unabogie]

Yep. Because confusion after a traumatic event is perfectly normal. For George.

For anyone else, their confusion is cause for discounting everything they say. Especially if they have time to jog their memories. That means they're lying.

It only works for George. He's the only one in the entire universe who can change his story, embellish details, forget vital facts, or remember things that never happened. Especially since he's the only witness with a motive to lie. That just makes his story more awesome.

 

[tsig]

Yep. Because confusion after a traumatic event is perfectly normal. For George.

For anyone else, their confusion is cause for discounting everything they say. Especially if they have time to jog their memories. That means they're lying.

It only works for George. He's the only one in the entire universe who can change his story, embellish details, forget vital facts, or remember things that never happened. Especially since he's the only witness with a motive to lie. That just makes his story more awesome.

Of course he wouldn't lie, he knows he's under intense scrutiny so he knows he has to adhere strictly to the truth, whatever that is./zapologist off

 

[Unabogie]

Of course he wouldn't lie, he knows he's under intense scrutiny so he knows he has to adhere strictly to the truth, whatever that is./zapologist off

Now you're getting it.

Witness 12? She said something that hurts George. So we must parse everything she says and if anything contradicts anything else, or she clarifies anything in a way that makes George's story look like ********, we must discount her. Because the truth is that George is innocent and anyone who says different is lying. Or insane. Or both.

 

[Cylinder]

Yep. Because confusion after a traumatic event is perfectly normal. For George.

For anyone else, their confusion is cause for discounting everything they say. Especially if they have time to jog their memories. That means they're lying.

It only works for George. He's the only one in the entire universe who can change his story, embellish details, forget vital facts, or remember things that never happened. Especially since he's the only witness with a motive to lie. That just makes his story more awesome.

The same old composted rhetoric. I don't claim that W13 is lying - an essential element of lying being knowing the truth. In fact, I'm more prone to chalk it up to confusion and suggestion. We don't have to question that because her own words provide it for us - that in the BDLR interview she was confused about details regarding the timing. That's not my assertion - it's her words.

Luckily, we have another witness who was watching at near the same time, saw Zimmerman on bottom and was able to provide commensurate identifying detail.

You act like these statements are somehow required to be in equipoise - each carrying the same weight as the others. That's just not how it works. Some saw and heard more - some less.

All the memes, mistatements, ridicule and cheerleading do not change what was seen and heard one whit.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You're half right. We did cover it. And the Honda Ridgeline manual clearly states that if you remove the keys, and open the door, the chimes start. Check. Then if you close the door with the lights on, they stay on for precisely 15 seconds.

Sgtbaker even made a video of herself demoing her own truck.

Page 77 of this doc.

http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/om/AJC080/AJC0808OM.pdf

Don't make me post it again in two weeks, ok?
.

Yes, you are correct if that is what happened. I recalled there was a difference between leaving the lights on automatic and removing the key versus removing the key and turning them on manually after removing the key.

So to recap:

1. George claimed he was walking slowly. Not even a fast walk.
2. The lights from his truck went out within 15 seconds.
3. He also claimed his flashlight was not working, which is why (a) he couldn't start back to his truck right away and (b) he didn't see the devastating blow coming.
4. The majority of time he was on RVC, waiting in the rain, for the courage to walk back 30 feet to Twin Trees. When he did start back, he says he never even stopped at the T for a second to look for the kid. He was done with it, back to the truck and no more looking for the suspect.

Therefore, Trayvon Martin could not, in any known universe, have seen him from his father's house and circled back to attack him.

TM couldn't possibly have seen GZ walking toward RVC ? How did you determine this ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yep. Because confusion after a traumatic event is perfectly normal. For George.

For anyone else, their confusion is cause for discounting everything they say. Especially if they have time to jog their memories. That means they're lying.

It only works for George. He's the only one in the entire universe who can change his story, embellish details, forget vital facts, or remember things that never happened. Especially since he's the only witness with a motive to lie. That just makes his story more awesome.

Here is what she said:

W12: And then we heard "Help" after the howl. That's when I looked and didn't see anything.

Crosby: Okay. And you looked out...

W12: I looked straight out.

Crosby: ...your living room window and at that point you didn't see anything?

W12: I didn't see anything. Crosby: Okay.

W12: And then I heard a shot. We heard a shot. Then I looked.

Crosby: And how many shots did you hear?

W12: Just one.

Crosby: Okay. And did you look out your window a second time?

W12: When we heard the shot I looked out and that's when I saw two men on the grass.
Crosby: Okay. You saw two people?

W12: Two people.

Crosby: And were they both on the ground?

W12: No. One was on top of the other. I don't know which one.

 

[Unabogie]

Yes, you are correct if that is what happened. I recalled there was a difference between leaving the lights on automatic and removing the key versus removing the key and turning them on manually after removing the key.

RTFM.

TM couldn't possibly have seen GZ walking toward RVC ? How did you determine this ?

You can't just pick these bits of his story and not put them together, ok?

If Trayvon saw his killer from all the way down by his father's place, that's at least 350', right? Here is what George claimed:

1. It was very dark.
2. He wasn't running, or even fast walking.
3. His flashlight didn't work.

If those three things are true, then the headlights were off before he ever reached the T.

So Trayvon would have to spot a person walking at 7:00 on a Sunday evening in a populated area, in the dark, correctly surmised that the creepy man who he had never seen with enough detail to recognize up close would be recognized from a football field away and was in fact this dark shape he could see in the distance. Even thought he had ZERO reason to assume this man would leave his car and follow him. And then instantly run back to the spot where he saw this shadowy figure, just to beat him down? For no reason?

And this strikes you as reasonable? More reasonable than the idea that Trayvon ran behind the houses, thought he'd lost the creepy guy in the car, and stopped running? Then the creepy man appeared out by the walkway, on foot, running with a flashlight? And that's how they came to be together?

 

[Dan O.]

And this strikes you as reasonable? More reasonable than the idea that Trayvon ran behind the houses, thought he'd lost the creepy guy in the car, and stopped running? Then the creepy man appeared out by the walkway, on foot, running with a flashlight? And that's how they came to be together?

It's at least as reasonable as when Trayvon beat down the 7-11 store clerk for not selling him a cigar or how he beat up three total strangers outside the store. We're supposed to believe that this is the nature of every black kid from the inner city. That's why law abiding white folks like George Zimmerman have to carry guns and have to chase down those ******** and not let them get away.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

RTFM.

You can't just pick these bits of his story and not put them together, ok?

If Trayvon saw his killer from all the way down by his father's place, that's at least 350', right? Here is what George claimed:

1. It was very dark.
2. He wasn't running, or even fast walking.
3. His flashlight didn't work.

If those three things are true, then the headlights were off before he ever reached the T.

So Trayvon would have to spot a person walking at 7:00 on a Sunday evening in a populated area, in the dark, correctly surmised that the creepy man who he had never seen with enough detail to recognize up close would be recognized from a football field away and was in fact this dark shape he could see in the distance. Even thought he had ZERO reason to assume this man would leave his car and follow him. And then instantly run back to the spot where he saw this shadowy figure, just to beat him down? For no reason?

And this strikes you as reasonable? More reasonable than the idea that Trayvon ran behind the houses, thought he'd lost the creepy guy in the car, and stopped running? Then the creepy man appeared out by the walkway, on foot, running with a flashlight? And that's how they came to be together?

No, it was more having to do with your claim that we can't know where GZ parked - therefor you have no idea if he was past the Tee or not when the lights on his car went out.

 

[Unabogie]

No, it was more having to do with your claim that we can't know where GZ parked - therefor you have no idea if he was past the Tee or not when the lights on his car went out.

I'm using his own story, since that's "granting the premise" for the sake of argument.

He says he parked by the T, then got out and walked slowly. We know what kind of car he drove. We know he said the flashlight didn't work.

If you take everything he said at face value, then by the time he got to the T on his way to RVC, the lights were out, so it'd be impossible for someone 350' away to recognize him and run all the way back. That's taking his word for it. Are we supposed to swap out our own narrative where his gets into trouble?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm using his own story, since that's "granting the premise" for the sake of argument.

He says he parked by the T, then got out and walked slowly. We know what kind of car he drove. We know he said the flashlight didn't work.

If you take everything he said at face value, then by the time he got to the T on his way to RVC, the lights were out, so it'd be impossible for someone 350' away to recognize him and run all the way back. That's taking his word for it. Are we supposed to swap out our own narrative where his gets into trouble?

Reviewing the walk-through, it doesn't seem like he could have gotten to the Tee in 15 seconds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4

So no, the claim seems unlikely that that from all the way down by Brandys house he could see GZ at the Tee.

 

[Unabogie]

Reviewing the walk-through, it doesn't seem like he could have gotten to the Tee in 15 seconds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4

So no, the claim seems unlikely that that from all the way down by Brandys house he could see GZ at the Tee.

And by "unlikely" we really mean "not a chance in hell".

But thank you for the admission.

 

[phonebook]

And by "unlikely" we really mean "not a chance in hell".

But thank you for the admission.

I don't believe TM had made it all the way to "his father's house", I believe Skeptic Tank was the only one who claimed/assumed that. My assumption is that he hid somewhere along the left side of the T area, perhaps behind one of those white fence partition things.

He could have noticed that "the man" had stopped/parked his vehicle. GZ would have to have been moving pretty fast for him to reach an area where TM could have spotted him in those ~15 seconds the headlights were on, so I'm not sure if that happened, though TM could have seen the headlights shining eastward across the top of the T.

Even without the headlights, with GZ moving left to right (relative to TM's position), with houses likely somewhat illuminated behind him; making noise, talking on the phone with the dispatcher, and perhaps his phone emitting some light; and whatever minimal lighting the street lamps near the far ends of both sides of the T were shining towards him, I'm certain TM would have had some sort of visual on GZ. The quality of that view depends where TM was at the time GZ crossed the top of the T towards RVC.

 

[12AX7]

That is that you are more interested in **** waving than having a discussion and providing evidence for your outlandish claims.

I'm 100% certain that's not it.

It's at least as reasonable as when Trayvon beat down the 7-11 store clerk for not selling him a cigar or how he beat up three total strangers outside the store. We're supposed to believe that this is the nature of every black kid from the inner city. That's why law abiding white folks like George Zimmerman have to carry guns and have to chase down those ******** and not let them get away.

Well, you have to expect this kind of behavior from kids whose dad's have mistresses and whose friends can't spell their names.

 

[Unabogie]

I don't believe TM had made it all the way to "his father's house", I believe Skeptic Tank was the only one who claimed/assumed that. My assumption is that he hid somewhere along the left side of the T area, perhaps behind one of those white fence partition things.

He could have noticed that "the man" had stopped/parked his vehicle. GZ would have to have been moving pretty fast for him to reach an area where TM could have spotted him in those ~15 seconds the headlights were on, so I'm not sure if that happened, though TM could have seen the headlights shining eastward across the top of the T.

Even without the headlights, with GZ moving left to right (relative to TM's position), with houses likely somewhat illuminated behind him; making noise, talking on the phone with the dispatcher, and perhaps his phone emitting some light; and whatever minimal lighting the street lamps near the far ends of both sides of the T were shining towards him, I'm certain TM would have had some sort of visual on GZ. The quality of that view depends where TM was at the time GZ crossed the top of the T towards RVC.

Sure. He recognized a complete stranger as the same person following him at night in a truck based on the bright lights of a cellphone pressed up against his cheek with the lights facing his head. And the bright lights facing from behind him from the backs of people's homes.

Here's a hint about light. Light behind someone illuminates their back, not their front. Therefore, it would have illuminated Trayvon, not George, and George would have been a silhouette against the faint light.

Physics! How does it work?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

And by "unlikely" we really mean "not a chance in hell".

But thank you for the admission.

No, I mean unlikely. It's based on some assumptions I can't confirm.

For you, OTOH, it's clearly "not a chance in hell".

That's one of the many differences in the way we view this case.

 

[Unabogie]

No, I mean unlikely. It's based on some assumptions I can't confirm.

For you, OTOH, it's clearly "not a chance in hell".

That's one of the many differences in the way we view this case.

Yes, there's not a chance in hell that Trayvon saw a dark shape from a football field away in the dark, with no light sources anywhere, and recognized it as a human and the same human who was previously in a truck, and was sure enough to leave his home and run a length of a football field back to attempt murder on him.

We do, in fact, view this case differently.