Friends and MLM recruitment. HELP!

VanDruff says -

An MLM could never work, even in theory. Think about it.

Yes indeed. Think about that statement, and think about this.

When reality contradicts your conclusions, it's a reasonable idea to consider that maybe there are flaws in your analysis.

Here's a lengthier response to VanDruff's post.

That "rebuttal" relies on some very flimsy stuff and a deliberate, or mistaken, misinterpretation of what Vandruff wrote.

Van Druff again shows his ignorance by asking the question "If (an MLM product) is so great, then why isn't it being sold through the customary marketing system that has served human society for thousands of years?" Yes, he actually said that in his article, and its wrong on multiple levels. First, I can think of only one "marketing system" that has served human society for "thousands of years" - word of mouth. The marketing system used by MLM companies. Let's forgive his hyperbole and assume he meant store shelves.

Van Druff wasn't talking about either of those things. He was referring to market size and supply control. For thousands of years merchants have had to gauge the demand for their product, where that demand is, and how to best serve it without going over or missing out. MLM sales models ignore this. As Van Druff states, there is no one at the controls.
 
Van Druff wasn't talking about either of those things. He was referring to market size and supply control.

I've no idea how you get that idea. Here's the entire section with that quote -

VanDruff said:
MLMs vs. the Real World

The basic question that needs to be asked is this: If this product or service is so great, then why isn't it being sold through the customary marketing system that has served human society for thousands of years? Why does it need to resort to a "special marketing" scheme like an MLM? Why does everyone need to be so inexperienced at marketing this! Is the product just a thin cover for what is really a pyramid scheme of exploiting others? But more on that later.

There's nothing in that section about supply and demand. Clements quite correctly point out VanDruff's statements here are absurd. Direct sales pre-dates retail stores by, most likely, millennia. Retail outlets in fixed locations are a relatively recent invention.

For thousands of years merchants have had to gauge the demand for their product, where that demand is, and how to best serve it without going over or missing out. MLM sales models ignore this. As Van Druff states, there is no one at the controls.

Regerding there being "no one at the controls" in MLM, this is simply false - the market is in control. Indeed the "control" for the merchant is often greater with MLM than "traditional" retailing. Retail stores typically need to purchase inventory and keep it in stock to sell. If they can't sell it (ie no demand) they often have to drop the price or throw it away. Contrast this to standard practice in MLM - companies will buy back any unsold inventory. Typically cases they'll even refund used inventory if a customer is unsatisfied. Membership fees are also refundable.

The issue of market saturation was well addressed by the judge in the seminal MLM case, FTC vs Amway nearly 35 years ago. Vandruff in his "research" did not even bother to read the single most important legal case about this business model. You'll note he also fails to cite a single (non-self published) book or peer-reviewed paper from the field.
 
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I've no idea how you get that idea. Here's the entire section with that quote -

He is clearly talking about how MLM's are run without deference to market demands. There are no controls to stop a market from being over saturated except the eventual failure of the sales people when the market dries up. He is not talking about word of mouth or retail stores.

I am sure some MLM's are willing to buy back stock or issue refunds. In the specific case of worldventures they are not selling anything to buy back! I don't doubt that MLM can work but worldventures is a scam and I would not be involved in that business model unless I was the capstone.
 
I don't doubt that MLM can work but worldventures is a scam and I would not be involved in that business model unless I was the capstone.
Assuming you have ethics, I suspect you wouldn't be involved even then. ;)
 
He is clearly talking about how MLM's are run without deference to market demands.

He talks about that in an entirely different section of his post.

There are no controls to stop a market from being over saturated except the eventual failure of the sales people when the market dries up. He is not talking about word of mouth or retail stores.

If you decide to open say, a computer store or a restaurant, what controls are there to stop you failing?

I am sure some MLM's are willing to buy back stock or issue refunds.

There's no "some" about it. It's part of what are known as "the Amway rules" that came out of the FTC case mentioned earlier. They help define a program as legal, and have been followed by virtually all legitimate MLMs for almost 35 years. They are a requirement for membership of the Direct Selling Association.

In the specific case of worldventures they are not selling anything to buy back! I don't doubt that MLM can work but worldventures is a scam and I would not be involved in that business model unless I was the capstone.

I'm still analysing their plan and rules but I have concerns about their operations and at this stage I would certainly not recommend it. I'd note they are not members of the DSA, though they are apparently in the process and undergoing a one year review.

They do have a refund guarantee on memberships (including business services), but it's an unacceptably short 3 days. More common in the industry is 3 months.

And ... with respect..., I'm sure you didn't mean it quite this way, but saying you'd only be involved if you were "the capstone" does not reflect well on you!
 
And ... with respect..., I'm sure you didn't mean it quite this way, but saying you'd only be involved if you were "the capstone" does not reflect well on you!

Why should it not, if this kind of thing is above-board?
 
He talks about that in an entirely different section of his post.

Yea, right before the section we are discussing. No where does he talk about word of mouth or retail being the thousands of year old model. In fact the previous 5 paragraphs all discuss it. It's clear that's what he is referring to.



If you decide to open say, a computer store or a restaurant, what controls are there to stop you failing?

Well the first control would not be opening 4 computer stores at each corner of an intersection. The next would be selling a good product that speaks for itself not a dubious product that merely disguises a pyramid scam.

The MLM model can work long term for a set group of people, the point where the market is over saturated is where regular models cut back. MLM just keeps getting people to buy in unaware or unconcerned that they are doomed to fail.
 
Tell Marco you will buy into his scheme as soon as your Airplane Investment pays off. :D

That's funny.

On the previous page I posted a section about the insane growth an MLM/pyramid has to have in order to keep paying. Can any one confirm that info?

I sent Marcus an email laying out the broad strokes as I see it. Concluded by letting him know I would feel negligent in my duties as a friend if I had not at least cautioned him. That I would not involve myself further unless he wanted to talk or had questions.

Learned from another friend that this isn't the first MLM that Jesus has tried to sell to others.. it's the 4th or 5th!:jaw-dropp
 
That's funny.

On the previous page I posted a section about the insane growth an MLM/pyramid has to have in order to keep paying. Can any one confirm that info?
You mean this one:
Pyramid schemes are based on simple mathematics: many losers pay a few winners. A nine-level pyramid, which is built when each participant gets six "friends" to join, would involve over ten million people!

6
36
216
1,296
7,776
46,656
279,936
1,679,616
10,077,696
Yes, that's true. It's simple mathematics. Exponential growth is terrifying. See also the "wheat and chessboard problem": if you put one grain on the first square of a chess board, and then each time the double on the next square, you end up with needing more than today's global annual grain harvest.

If a participant in an MLM derives his income mostly from recruiting new salespersons, as opposed to selling actual product, then the above consideration is important: market is saturated in no time.
 
Why should it not, if this kind of thing is above-board?

Because he's saying he'd be willing to scam people, as long as he was "at the top"

Yea, right before the section we are discussing. No where does he talk about word of mouth or retail being the thousands of year old model. In fact the previous 5 paragraphs all discuss it. It's clear that's what he is referring to.

Not to me. Anyway, flawed either way.

Well the first control would not be opening 4 computer stores at each corner of an intersection.

So the decision that you won't open a store is the "control"? How is that different to MLM? If I show you a business selling water filters, and you think there's too many people selling water filters in the area already, can't you just decide not to start the business? I fail to see a difference?

The next would be selling a good product that speaks for itself not a dubious product that merely disguises a pyramid scam.

No product "speaks for itself", but obviously to have a business you need an authentic product.

The MLM model can work long term for a set group of people, the point where the market is over saturated is where regular models cut back.

Market saturation is a goal for all businesses. It rarely occurs. If a business approaches saturation for it's product, then it looks for new products or new markets. Again, I fail to see the difference?

MLM just keeps getting people to buy in unaware or unconcerned that they are doomed to fail.

That's contradictory. First of all, market saturation is about demand for the product. If there's a market to sell the product to, then it's possible to make money. You appear to the common fallacy of believing that the goal of multilevel marketing companies is to recruit people. It is not. Recruitment, just like "recruiting" staff in any industry, is a strategy to increase sales. Not the goal.

Still, if you want to talk about demand for the business opportunity, then if the market is saturated then there is nobody else to "buy in" unless it's an existing customer who wishes to be come a distributor. In that situation (and again, saturation is a goal of all businesses, not something to be avoided!) if they discover it too difficult they can usually get a refund. If this happens extensively then obviously the company will know there is an issue, and like any other company, either change or it will fail to thrive.

I'll quote again from the FTC decision that was the first major investigation in to the multilevel marketing approach -

I believe the reason for their failure was more accurately described by a marketing expert who testified about this subject (Patty, Tr. 3109): 'I think generally speaking when a saleman tells you that a market is saturated, he has become discouraged for some reason, usually he is simply not making the sale effort that is required.' [110]

Some questions for you -

Why do you think VanDruff, who admits to having zero expertise in the area, is more authoritative on this topic than an FTC commission that spent several years researching the model and interviewing hundreds of experts and other witnesses?

What in the FTC decision do you believe is wrong?

Why do you think VanDruff, an engineer, is more authoritative on this topic than say Professor Dominique Xardel, a well regarded professional with experience in both academia and business, who spent several years researching the industry and published a book about it - The Direct Selling Revolution.

What in Professor Xardel's work do you believe is wrong?
 
That's funny.

On the previous page I posted a section about the insane growth an MLM/pyramid has to have in order to keep paying. Can any one confirm that info?

This is true for pyramids, but simply not true for legitimate MLMs. "Pay" comes from product sales, not recruiting. I built an Amway business many years ago (long story, it belongs to my former wife now). There has been nobody recruited in to that business in nearly 15 years. ZERO growth. Yet it has generated income every single year. The income comes from people purchasing products, not recruiting. If the income comes from recruiting, then it is an illegal pyramid. They are not the same thing.

Again think about it - the "theory" you ascribe to predicts MLM companies will collapse within years if not months. Yet there are MLM companies more than 70 years old.

Is it not clear to you that there must be something wrong with your theory? That it does not describe reality?
 
That's funny.

On the previous page I posted a section about the insane growth an MLM/pyramid has to have in order to keep paying. Can any one confirm that info?

I sent Marcus an email laying out the broad strokes as I see it. Concluded by letting him know I would feel negligent in my duties as a friend if I had not at least cautioned him. That I would not involve myself further unless he wanted to talk or had questions.

Learned from another friend that this isn't the first MLM that Jesus has tried to sell to others.. it's the 4th or 5th!:jaw-dropp

Common thing with serial MLMers.
 
Again think about it - the "theory" you ascribe to predicts MLM companies will collapse within years if not months. Yet there are MLM companies more than 70 years old.

Is it not clear to you that there must be something wrong with your theory? That it does not describe reality?

Sure, as long as there is sufficient "churn" at the lower levels then the business continues to be viable.

MLM seems to rely on people paying over the odds for the product though. Comparing Amway product pricing to those in Walmart (which IIRC we did in a thread some months ago) or whatever shows that Amway is more expensive. Those people who have enough family, friends or cow-orkers to flog their wares to are likely to turn a profit (at least until they have to start buying the instructional materials).
 
Sure, as long as there is sufficient "churn" at the lower levels then the business continues to be viable.

MLM seems to rely on people paying over the odds for the product though. Comparing Amway product pricing to those in Walmart (which IIRC we did in a thread some months ago) or whatever shows that Amway is more expensive. Those people who have enough family, friends or cow-orkers to flog their wares to are likely to turn a profit (at least until they have to start buying the instructional materials).

Flog the cow-orker? Is this some euphemism I missed the memo on?
 
Sent Marcus an email yesterday and he responded positively this morning, he was beginning to have his own suspicions and doubts!
 
So here it goes. Jesus called me about an opportunity that He and Marco were starting. I agreed to meet him because Marco was involved. He is a good sales man but I know the tricks and tactics so I let him practice his pitch. Filled with personal reflection, related to me, played to my ego.... it was a good pitch. Its a Multilevel Marketing company that is in the "travel club" business called worldventures.

Meh, I checked them out and they look interesting as long as you have a steady supply of rich people who want you to act as their own personal travel agent. Most of the rovio packages were hidden behind a register first wall so the only price I could get was their 12 day South American tour which goes for +500/day/person.

I've seen lots of people get involved in MLM schemes however I've never seen anyone make a go of it. Most people don't want to talk about it after they've left the organization.
 

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