Proof of Life After Death!!

[MikeAparicio]

@Xterra

By Xterra : Agatha, I ascribe part of the difficulty of understanding Mike's posts to the possibility that Mike's first language is Spanish. He does a good job of writing in English, despite some Spanish grammatical and vocabulary interference. For instance, this question is a direct translation of Spanish.

"How the evidence for Life after death should be?"

I would say, "What would be the evidence for life after death?"

Thanks Xterra for speaking well of my English. Maybe it is not that good!

Le me explain my usage of "How" rather than "what":

If I say "what" I would be meaning the nature of the proof... What kind of thing it is?
IF I say "How" I am requesting the process to obtain the proof.

How do I obtain information on what the proof is....

I hope Shakespeare won't come out of the grave and slap me! lol!

 

[Sideroxylon]

How then can it be proven? Not externally. Not in a communication form. It belongs to a total personal experience. It is the fruit of a great discipline, inner observation, mental quietness and effort. It is only a personal proof.

Not satisfying to all? I understand.

But it will be very satisfying individually when obtained.

We can go further into this if I am allowed.

Given that deeply felt certainty gained through such personal experience has led people to a wide variety of contradictory conclusions, how are we to decide what is true? Without any measure how can you be sure such feelings and ideas are not a product of your mind and wishful thinking?

 

[MikeAparicio]

So. No chupacabras, then?

I find your efforts to downplay your dismal slander against a lady unable to defend herself not particularly amusing, Mike.
Still, we've established you're liable to confuse Hollywood productions with history.

That's an interesting idea, Mike. Why do you compare a spouse's fidelity with LAD?

Please keep in mind, Mike, no matter how we disagree, I am truly concerned about your health and wish you all the best.

Wow Pakeha! This does not match the skeptic denial. If there is no Life after death then Lucrezia will not mind me making her a Popeshi! Anyway... I DID apologize to her and to all. Do I apologize again? Ok I do!

Also; I am not comparing spouses fidelity to LAD. I am comparing the impossibility to prove or disprove either.

Thank you for your concerns for my health. I suppose it has to do with my illness and not with my "nut" head, right?

So... I am doing just fine! My "home remedy" is working! Please let's do not derail the subject!

Thanks again!

 

[Daylightstar]

...
How do I obtain information on what the proof is....
...

Or in other words:
On what do you base your apparent belief in the afterlife?

Still no clear answer to that.

 

[MikeAparicio]

Given that deeply felt certainty gained through such personal experience has led people to a wide variety of contradictory conclusions, how are we to decide what is true? Without any measure how can you be sure such feelings and ideas are not a product of your mind and wishful thinking?

As soon as those with the experience try to express it confusion arises because of the impossibility to properly communicate to the exterior the nature, form and perception of it.

Also, there is no need for others to "decide if it is true", for the same reason.

And, of course such feelings and ideas are a product of Mind but NOT of intellect. There is a lot of confusion between mind and intellectual function. Intellect actually commits Ego usurpation pretending to be the Self.
Big common mistake!

 

[Pixel42]

Given that deeply felt certainty gained through such personal experience has led people to a wide variety of contradictory conclusions, how are we to decide what is true? Without any measure how can you be sure such feelings and ideas are not a product of your mind and wishful thinking?

The danger of this imagined way of obtaining knowledge was captured best for me by Jacob Bronowski in the "Knowledge or Certainty" episode of his series The Ascent of Man. The sequence at the end where he stands by the pool at Auschwitz where members of his own family died was one of the most electrifying pieces of TV I've ever seen, and has stayed with me ever since I first saw it.

http://ronrecord.com/Quotes/bronowski.html (my bolding)

Look for yourself. This is the concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz. *This* is where people were turned into numbers. Into this pond were flushed the ashes of four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done by arrogance. It was done by dogma. It was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality--this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods.

Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of the known; we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judgment in science stands on the edge or error, and is personal. Science is a tribute to what we *can* know although we are fallible. In the end, the words were said by Oliver Cromwell: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ: Think it possible you may be mistaken."

 

[MikeAparicio]

Or in other words:
On what do you base your apparent belief in the afterlife?

Still no clear answer to that.

I just said it but will gladly explain further:

First, by wishing it. Then strict discipline in pursuing your finding. Mental quietness, Deep inner observation. Putting ALL ideas in a mental drawer, not to discard them but just to accomplish mental solitude. Perseverance. Hope and Trust in your Inner Self.

That is it. Oh I forgot: Don't try to communicate it or put it in a book. It will go away and you will have to hunt again for it! (serious advice)

 

[deaman]

Fine folks. We are now getting into it. I had almost done my reply when I accidentally hit the tab on top and all my typing was gone!

Recalling what I was writing:

Although it is not a rule, people, specially skeptic minds, consider the exterior world as the only means to acquire understanding, knowledge and information.

Based on such notion, it is assumed proof or evidence must come from an exterior perception, physically demonstrable.

There are also different ways people consider Life after Death (call it LAD for short) and also different ways people understand the spiritual world.

(I am trying to use short phrases do to my poor English. Forgive me for that)

Consequently, skeptics demand physical proof of a totally spiritual conception, probably biased because of the so many "psychics, mediums, ghost hunters, etc." which try to demonstrate or prove the existence of LAD by such means.

I don't think, as other fellows of mine do not as well, consider the "world beyond" of the same nature as our local, living world. If there is "beyond space" it has nothing to do with our space and both worlds do not permeate, either spatially or in time.

If "making noises, dragging chains, casting shadows, pushing people, throwing things, or getting messages with physical details from our world" is required as proof, such proof has nothing to do with the realm I am talking about.

The assumption of an interconnection between worlds is what causes the whole misunderstanding, the confusion and the rejection.

Precisely because such lack of interconnection, there is no possible way to obtain physical proof of the "world beyond", or in the survival of pure Consciousness and consequently for Life after Death.

In my perception, LAD has nothing to do with personality, profession, merits, human relations, family, or any of our earthly deeds. That is why it is called the world "beyond" and there is nothing "near" in something that is beyond reach, beyond physical contact, beyond kinematics.

LAD is a transcendental departure from our World Life.

How then can it be proven? Not externally. Not in a communication form. It belongs to a total personal experience. It is the fruit of a great discipline, inner observation, mental quietness and effort. It is only a personal proof.

Not satisfying to all? I understand.

But it will be very satisfying individually when obtained.

We can go further into this if I am allowed.

So basically, your evidence is: I believe it to be so, so it must be so.

 

[Sideroxylon]

As soon as those with the experience try to express it confusion arises because of the impossibility to properly communicate to the exterior the nature, form and perception of it.

Also, there is no need for others to "decide if it is true", for the same reason.

And, of course such feelings and ideas are a product of Mind but NOT of intellect. There is a lot of confusion between mind and intellectual function. Intellect actually commits Ego usurpation pretending to be the Self.
Big common mistake!

Yes let's set aside what other people may think about the truth of the belief you have arrived at through personal experience. We still have the question as to how you yourself can judge its veracity. You could be fooling yourself. The fact that people have arrived at a variety of sometimes conflicting conclusions must mean this method of arriving at truth is at the least suspect.

 

[Sideroxylon]

The danger of this imagined way of obtaining knowledge was captured best for me by Jacob Bronowski in the "Knowledge or Certainty" episode of his series The Ascent of Man. The sequence at the end where he stands by the pool at Auschwitz where members of his own family died was one of the most electrifying pieces of TV I've ever seen, and has stayed with me ever since I first saw it.

http://ronrecord.com/Quotes/bronowski.html (my bolding)

A powerful example. Reminds me of Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

 

[Daylightstar]

I just said it ...

Not really.

... First, by wishing it. ...

Right:

So that would be constructed wishful thinking?

... Then strict discipline in pursuing your finding. Mental quietness, Deep inner observation. Putting ALL ideas in a mental drawer, not to discard them but just to accomplish mental solitude. Perseverance. Hope and Trust in your Inner Self.

That is it. ...

So, just wishful thinking, but nothing concrete. Unless you could be more specific ....

 

[MikeAparicio]

@Pixel42

Sorry Lady Pixel, but I see another connection with the writings.

I do personally feel horrified by the holocaust and the monsters who did it!

I do also sincerely hope the strong religion belief the victims had, helped them gain their new Life State as well deserved.

The stoicism exhibited by such suffering people shows their strong belief in LAD, and their majors could instill such spiritual understanding in their people they could pass by from the ordeal into an unknown to us Higher State of Life.

I wish you would also hope the same.

 

[MikeAparicio]

Not really.

Right:
So, just wishful thinking, but nothing concrete. Unless you could be more specific ....

Daylightstar: You cannot enter materialistically into this notions.

I am not opening a course on spirituality here. I am positive you know you can accomplish only what you deeply wish. Then you do what follows, clearly described in my post.

It really depends on you and not anybody else, including poor Mike Aparicio.

 

[Pixel42]

Once again, Mike, you have completely missed my point.

Let me put it this way. Suppose someone followed your advice precisely, and instead of receiving knowledge about life after death received instructions from God to demonstrate God's anger with a certain nation by flying a plane into one of its most important buildings. How would you go about persuading this person that that is not the right thing to do? You have already declared that the knowledge obtained in this manner is bound to be correct. There are no facts, no arguments that you can use to counter it because this person's belief was not obtained by facts or arguments. There is no test in reality for it.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Once again, Mike, you have completely missed my point.

Let me put it this way. Suppose someone followed your advice precisely, and instead of receiving knowledge about life after death received instructions from God to demonstrate God's anger with a certain nation by flying a plane into one of its most important buildings. How would you go about persuading this person that that is not the right thing to do? You have already declared that the knowledge obtained in this manner is bound to be correct. There are no facts, no arguments that you can use to counter it because this person's belief was not obtained by facts or arguments. There is no test in reality for it.

Excellent framing of the question.

 

[Daylightstar]

As soon as those with the experience try to express it confusion arises because of the impossibility to properly communicate to the exterior the nature, form and perception of it. ...

How is a lack of evidence confusing?
No evidence is no evidence. There however is agitation in the claimant when his/her claim is not accepted based on his/her word alone.
Perhaps that's what you mean by confusion ....

 

[pakeha]

...Also; I am not comparing spouses fidelity to LAD. I am comparing the impossibility to prove or disprove either.

Thank you for your concerns for my health. I suppose it has to do with my illness and not with my "nut" head, right?

So... I am doing just fine! My "home remedy" is working! Please let's do not derail the subject!

Thanks again!

You really think you can't prove or disprove a spouse's fidelity?
Really?

I just said it but will gladly explain further:

First, by wishing it. Then strict discipline in pursuing your finding. Mental quietness, Deep inner observation. Putting ALL ideas in a mental drawer, not to discard them but just to accomplish mental solitude. Perseverance. Hope and Trust in your Inner Self.

That is it. Oh I forgot: Don't try to communicate it or put it in a book. It will go away and you will have to hunt again for it! (serious advice)

You realise this is all an entirely mental construct and in no way represents proof of anything, Mike?

What is your Inner Self but your own thoughts?

 

[Daylightstar]

Daylightstar: You cannot enter materialistically into this notions.

I am not opening a course on spirituality here. I am positive you know you can accomplish only what you deeply wish. Then you do what follows, clearly described in my post.

It really depends on you and not anybody else, including poor Mike Aparicio.

You were not clearly describing anything, you were just expressing vague, generally meaningless notions.

You're making it quite clear that your apparent belief in the afterlife is not based on anything concrete, except for your wishful thinking of course.
Nothing else ....

 

[MikeAparicio]

A powerful example. Reminds me of Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

My lawyer wife, who deals with penal justice, frequently meets dangerous criminals and visit regularly several prisons to interview inmates.

She tells me it is mostly invariable those interns have no sense of spirituality, have no faith and reject any notion of God, LAD, or moral rectitude.

Others have a pathological deformation of spiritual concepts, same kind of deformations skeptic critics have on their rejected notions of God, LAD and Spirit. I would say their understanding of spirituality is either deformed or totally inaccurate.

I participate in several university boards where it is discussed the immoral aspects of spiritual skepticism and atheism because the general population requires strong faith in spiritual justice.

We strongly believe the moral destruction attempted by spreading out atheist theories is seriously damaging the moral foundation in the world.

I must insist I do not resent the individual rights to be a skeptic and to reject all beliefs, although it is impossible. What I do claim is: Spiritual subjects, faith and religion should be avoided as subjects for public skeptic spreading.

The social implications are invariable avoided by those supporting a strong skeptical position without consideration to side effects.

 

[Daylightstar]

Daylightstar: You cannot enter materialistically into this notions. ...

Your position on impossibility of proof or evidence for the afterlife is a classic example of special pleading, by the way