Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

And how does following someone or looking at someone fit the legal definition of "imminent unlawful force"?

It doesn't.

Nor did I argue that it does.

Read the whole post, WildCat.

Take your time.

Let me know if I need to enlarge the text or make it a brighter color.

 

[WildCat]

I see. So again, no one actually said that, you're just making stuff up.

You didn't answer the question.

Would you like to try again, or should I just take your avoidance of the question as tacit acknowledgement I'm right?

'Doin' the Duane' again.

Again displaying your striking and deliberate dishonesty. You've been corrected on this already, but now you bring it up again to cover for your inability or unwillingness to answer a simple question. All I did was confuse Duane Allman's motorcycle death with Berry Oakley's. I'll demonstrate it again so everyone can see your desperation.

On November 11, 1972, Oakley was involved in a motorcycle accident in Macon, Georgia, just three blocks from where Duane Allman had his fatal motorcycle accident the year before. Oakley was driving around a sharp right bend of the road on Napier Avenue at Inverness when he crossed the line and collided at an angle with a city bus making the bend from the opposite direction. After striking the front and then the back of the bus, Oakley was thrown from his bike, just as Allman had been, and struck his head. Oakley said he was okay after the accident, declined medical treatment, and caught a ride home. Three hours later, he was rushed to the hospital, delirious and in pain, and died of cerebral swelling caused by a fractured skull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_Oakley

 

[WildCat]

It doesn't.

Nor did I argue that it does.

Then you must agree that Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

 

[Amazer]

And how does following someone or looking at someone fit the legal definition of "imminent unlawful force"?

Following and looking at Trayvon are the events that might have given Trayvon the impression that George was up no good.

This is then followed by George failing to identify himself and George reaching into his jacket pocket.

Would that fit the legal definition of 'imminent unlawful force'?

 

[johnny karate]

Then you must agree that Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

I'm not sure why you think I would agree with the erroneous conclusion you drew from dishonestly misrepresenting my argument.

 

[WildCat]

Following and looking at Trayvon are the events that might have given Trayvon the impression that George was up no good.

This is then followed by George failing to identify himself and George reaching into his jacket pocket.

Would that fit the legal definition of 'imminent unlawful force'?

None that I'm aware of. Punch someone for looking at you funny (even if they reach into their pocket) or following you gets you charged with assault most anywhere.

 

[WildCat]

I'm sure why you think I would agree with the erroneous conclusion you drew from dishonestly misrepresenting my argument.

I ignored the part of your argument not based on any facts, like the part where Zimmerman caught up to Martin, who was trying to get away.

Because we know that Zimmerman lost sight of Martin when he was still on the phone with the police, so we know Martin wasn't trying to get away, wasn't in fear of Zimmerman, and in fact he wanted to confront Zimmerman and according to DeeDee did confront Zimmerman.

 

[Unabogie]

I'm not sure why you think I would agree with the erroneous conclusion you drew from dishonestly misrepresenting my argument.

It seems to be a pattern with him. Start by dishonestly distorting something someone said, then demand an explanation for what you clearly didn't write, mean, and in any way convey.

 

[Mister Earl]

Then I'll ask you the same question I asked of Elypsis44:

"He was in legitimate fear for his life, and he was right."

How could Martin be "right" about fearing for his life unless Zimmerman intended to kill him?

We don't even know if he was in fear for his life. All we know is every time Zimmerman was near, Martin tried to get away from him.

Of course, but I have no reason to think that's the case here.

You also have no reason to say that that was his position, and to state that it is a deliberate lie. It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's something else completely to lie about what someone else said.

 

[Amazer]

None that I'm aware of.

Ok

Punch someone for looking at you funny (even if they reach into their pocket) or following you gets you charged with assault most anywhere.

Right... and if the highlighted was AND instead of OR? Would that change things a little bit?

 

[johnny karate]

I ignored the part of your argument not based on any facts, like the part where Zimmerman caught up to Martin, who was trying to get away.

Where did I say Zimmerman "caught up to Martin"?

This is the complete and total argument I made:

A stranger followed and watched Martin from his car while Martin walked home at night.

The stranger got out of his car to continue to follow Martin after Martin ran away from him.

Now that stranger is standing in front of Martin. The stranger has not identified himself or announced his intentions. The stranger reaches into his pocket...

Every single one of those events Zimmerman himself claimed happened.

Every single one.

I can provide the quotes from Zimmerman's statements if you like, but I will then be forced to mock you for once again being woefully ignorant of the basic facts of the case. The choice is yours.

Either way, argue against what I actually argued, and not against your confused, uninformed version of what you imagine I argued.

 

[Dan O.]

Do you have a FL court case that substantiates any of that? SYG in open areas was not the original intent as I understand SYG.

This is one of my peeves with the Florida law. The castle doctrin was an acceptable compromize giving a man in his own home the presumption if fear for his life when an intruder enters. A man in his own home does not have a duty to try and run. If a man can't feel safe in his own home he can't feel safe anywhere.

Florida has turned this doctrin on it's head to appease the gun toters That don't want any impediment to using deadly force anywhere they happen to be instead of turning tail and running away.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.​

Nor do you have any beyond a reasonable doubt proof that GZ was hunting.

I suppose that depends on which definition of "hunting" you choose to use. How would you describe George's activity that night?

 

[kedo1981]

Thanks Dan-o
You just proved GZ had every right to shoot TM, who by all that you or anybody knows was first to use violence.
Let the riots begin

 

[johnny karate]

It's 12,13 and 18. I'll post it separately as it will take a little effort to track down.

Yeah, sorry. That was a typo.

But please do quote where any of those witnesses indicate that the confrontation started at the T, because I wasn't aware that any witnesses saw how or where the confrontation began.

*shrugs* BTDTGTTS. It's not 50 feet, really. It's ~37 from the edge of the sidewalk to TMs body. As I said, witness 6 claims to have seen them move 5-10 feet in the few seconds he watched. That's ~1/4 of the claimed movement in that brief part of the fight. GZ small keychain flashlight is near the Tee with no other reasonable explanation of how it got there.

You know, I'm not seeing where Witness 6 make that claim, either. I'm not trying to be difficult about this. I'm genuinely curious where you're finding this information.

Either way, I don't deny the fight might have moved. It's seems the more plausible scenario.

But again, this is not a narrative that helps Zimmerman. He claims to have been down on his back and rendered helpless as soon as the fight started.

So ... I'm waiting on your evidence and alternate theory. Even if you are content to just disbelieve GZ, I'm not, not without a reasonable theory of what did happen that meets the evidence.

The alternate theory is the same as its always been: Zimmerman chased this kid down, an altercation ensued, Zimmerman found himself losing a fight, panicked, and killed the kid.

The evidence lies in the falsehoods and inconsistencies in Zimmerman's various stories, most importantly in how and where the altercation began and his relatively minor injuries.

Now, I know you don't think any of that is enough to meet the "reasonable doubt" standard, but I disagree.

I think there is definitely a case to be made here, and that Zimmerman faces a very real threat of conviction.

Yes, know he did run away from Zimmerman.
I don't claim TM had to sprint home. I do claim he had time to if he wanted to be safe at home.

But you don't know that's what he wanted, so I don't see the point in the argument. What he might have wanted was just to to jog out of sight of the weirdo who was watching him from his car.

I do thinks its possible to talk about what a reasonable person would do in such a situation, depending on how scared a person might be. Because except for what GZ says, speculation seems to be all there is.

Yes, and a reasonable person might have simply decided to leave the immediate area rather than run all the way home.

Yes, I concede he watched TM from his car. " sufficiently creeped out/threatened/bothered he fled the scene" is such a range of possible affectation , in my opinion, as to be useless.

Well, it's not. Because we know Martin ran away from Zimmerman, and that he had to have had a reason for doing so. Any of the above are perfectly plausible considering the situation.

I did qualify her as dubious. Not good enough ? AFAIK, she actually was on the phone with him. But that could change, because that specific evidence hasn't been released to the public.

But yes, 3 times she has claimed TM spoke to GZ. That is initiating a confrontation. I assume you will let me know how you define it differently.

Her dubiousness aside, what she claims is that Zimmerman was approaching Martin when Martin spoke to him.

If speaking to someone is confrontational, then certainly approaching them is as well.

Well, that's more evidence than exists for GZ assaulting TM in any way, so my point stands.

But there's plenty of evidence that Martin was reasonably threatened by Zimmerman.

To feel threatened, sure. To assault GZ, no.

A stranger followed and watched Martin from his car while Martin walked home at night.

The stranger got out of his car to continue to follow Martin after Martin ran away from him.

Now that stranger is standing in front of Martin. The stranger has not identified himself or announced his intentions. The stranger reaches into his pocket...

Seems to me to be a reasonable circumstance in which one could decide to defend themselves.

Yup, and I am sure the defense will have thier own professionals. So they cancel out. Then you add in the SPDs non-professionals that fall on GZ side, advantage GZ.

It all depends on what those professionals have to say.

I would be very curious to hear the medical experts for the defense explain how two small cuts, no concussion, no skull fractures, and not even a headache the next day were the result of Zimmerman having his head repeatedly slammed onto concrete.

Just so I am clear than - you're not going down the whole TM gets to Stand His Ground path ?

I don't see the prosecution going down that path. Not because I agree with your idea on it, but just because I don't think it will be of any benefit to them.

No, I'm not going down that path.

But I do think there is a plausible scenario based on the facts in which Martin could have been justified in defending himself.

I guess we'll see. I think witness validation of TM on top of GZ will be enough to tip things in GZ favor of a reasonable doubt.

Yeah, I guess we'll see.

 

[johnny karate]

So - I forgot to ask, is BDLR also irrational ? Is he just off on a wild fantasy as well ?

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0313/response_to_sanctions.pdf

B) On several occasions Defense Counsel asserted to the Court that Defendant was indigent, and he was unaware of the "defense fund" dollars his client had received. However, Defendant and his wife said otherwise2:
In a jail call with his wife, they talked about Defense Counsel knowing about the money.

Reads to me like de la Rionda is throwing O'Mara's own shoddy logic back in his face rather than making a serious accusation.

Either way, this has been settled:

GZ: Mark O’Mara is going to try and get me declared indigent. I told him that I didn’t think that was a possibility because you know there was the one possible transfer I tried to make and it got stopped, you know the $37 He said ‘well that doesn’t matter. Right now you are not working, not providing an income for your family, you are probably never going to be employable for the rest of your life. So basically they will declare you indigent.

Male: ah ah

GZ: So he knows about that. um But he …

Male: Does he know about the volume?

GZ: No.

Zimmerman is on record admitting he hid the bulk of his money from his attorney.

 

[LashL]

Regarding the issue of the broken nose and black eyes:

I capitulate Zimmerman had both, and have never argued otherwise since the release of the medical records.

I notice that the medical records also indicate, in addition to the scalp lacerations and broken nose w/ associated swelling and black eyes, that Zimmerman had sacroiliac joint pain requiring a prescription, as well as bilateral bruising and swelling to the nasolabial folds. It is this latter bit that interests me, because it seems that bilateral bruising and swelling to the nasolabial folds could (at least facially - no pun intended) lend support to Zimmerman's claim that Martin pressed his hand(s) over Zimmerman's nose/mouth.

 

[johnny karate]

Why would he be simultaneously trying to get the cops there and lying about his knowledge of where there is?

Well, it wasn't simultaneous, that's how.

First, Zimmerman called the police.

Then Martin ran.

Then Zimmerman went after him.

Then the dispatcher told Zimmerman they didn't need him to follow Martin.

This is the point where Zimmerman becomes cagey because he wants to be able to keep following Martin without letting the police know that's what he's doing.

Zimmerman's penchant for wanting to play the hero is documented:

In 2003, records show, he pursued a 24-year-old Lake Mary man he had seen shoplift a 24-inch TV from an Albertsons supermarket, following the suspect's car until a deputy arrived. The next year, he followed a man who he claimed had spit at him while driving.

It was even mentioned and acknowledged during the 2/29/12 interview with Serino:

Serino: ...I’ve seen the reports of your chasing down retail theft people. Yeah, you like to get involved. I mean, yeah.

Zimmerman: (unintelligible)

Serino: Yeah, the TVs or whatever from the

Zimmerman: Oh.

Serino: Yeah. Oh, yeah, we need to know everything, you know? I’m not gonna come in here and not know who you are, you know. You wanna get filed charges for people spitting into your car or whatever the hell that was all about, you know. Yeah, I’m, uh, yeah. Um, well were your aspirations to go in law enforcement cause you got a degree in criminal justice?

Zimmerman likes to catch the bad guy.

But once he was advised not to, he became evasive with police.

 

[johnny karate]

I notice that the medical records also indicate, in addition to the scalp lacerations and broken nose w/ associated swelling and black eyes, that Zimmerman had sacroiliac joint pain requiring a prescription, as well as bilateral bruising and swelling to the nasolabial folds. It is this latter bit that interests me, because it seems that bilateral bruising and swelling to the nasolabial folds could (at least facially - no pun intended) lend support to Zimmerman's claim that Martin pressed his hand(s) over Zimmerman's nose/mouth.

Or could it be symptomatic of the broken nose itself?

Although not specific to the nasolabial folds, I have seen "swelling of your nose and surrounding areas" and "bruising around your nose or eyes" listed as symptoms of a broken nose.

 

[phonebook]

[qimg]http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7829/wccer8q1.jpg[/qimg]

See that blue X? That's where Zimmerman ended up.

So now it's eighty feet from the T where TM's body was found? Maybe you're going to argue: "I didn't say that's where TM's body was, did I? I said that's where Zimmerman ended up."

Notice that it is not only along the path he reported Martin took as Martin was fleeing from him, but it is also away from any street signs or possible way to find an address, and most importantly, it places him in a location that contradicts or is rendered implausible by whatever version of events he gave that you choose to believe.

Do you believe GZ when he says TM "ran"/fled, south/right, down the T, at approximately the time GZ got out of his vehicle? That was ~2 minutes before the NEN call concluded. GZ states he got to the T around the time he says "He ran", which is 90 seconds before the call ended, and also 90 seconds before the confrontation could have began. Do you believe GZ had already started heading south down the T before the call concluded? How far could GZ have made it south down the T in those 90 seconds? Could he have made it ~50 feet (the number you use) from the T to where you apparently believe the bulk (if not all) of the physical portion of the altercation took place? Where was TM at that time? Did GZ go south down the T without a working flashlight (was very dark in that area), while on the NEN call and pass a hiding TM? Did GZ just not happen to shine his flashlight where TM was hiding? Did GZ not go south down the T until he got off the phone with dispatch? What gave him the courage to do so then? Was it so dispatch wouldn't know what he was doing? I have to assume that the prosecution is going to have to present some sort of detailed play-by-play of GZ's actions, factoring in the events on the NEN call, to explain what happened in those ~2 1/2 minutes from the time the call concluded, til the time the first 911 call came in.

I have no doubt that GZ didn't end up south of the T in an attempt to find a street sign, or a house address. I also don't believe GZ went south down the T on his own volition, unless that was in a panicked attempt to evade TM. If what GZ says is true, that TM punched him in the face, hard enough to break his nose, and hard enough to cause him to lose his balance, I would expect him to have his spatial awareness compromised, and I don't think it's unreasonable for him to have a compromised memory of what happened in the events immediately following that, especially considering the panicked state GZ was likely in at that point. The witnesses that L8Elvis mentioned hearing the argument/scuffle originate at the T, and the fact that GZ's illuminated flashlight/keys were found at the T are evidence, beyond GZ's words, that that's where things originated. What GZ describes after that, and what the screams indicate, is a truly chaotic situation, one of panic, fear, and desperation, and the fact that things seem a little different than what we might expect is par for the course in such a situation.

 

[phonebook]

We don't even know if he was in fear for his life. All we know is every time Zimmerman was near, Martin tried to get away from him.

Except for the time TM returned to circle GZ's car, "now he's coming towards me", "he's coming to check me out" (which I realize many people dismiss as having happened).