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Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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wardenclyffe said:
If results from a pro-homeopathy lab came back in favor of homeopathy, I think our (or at least my) mindset would be very similar regarding those tests.
You're wrong. I'm a scientist--the data are what they are.

You're also essentially declairing guilt based on an accusation. The guilt is simply insane. Several posters here are scientists. I've yet to meet a single scientist that hasn't had some idea proven wrong; we've all had some idea that we really enjoy that was shown to be complete bovine fecal matter. You may be right with how skeptics think, but you're dead wrong with how scientists think. And since I've stated, over and over again, that I'm not a skeptic, only one of those ways of thinking applies to me.

We don't argue against homeopathy because we believe homeopathy to be wrong; we argue against it because the data do not support it. It's a subtle, but very crucial, distinction--one foundational to the practical practice of science.

Evaluating methodology is always a valid avenue of criticism in science. The thing is, once you go more than ten times above and beyond the requirements for obtaining a good sample, the accusation that the methodology is flawed is at best ridiculous and should cause anyone who does so to lose all credibility. And you can't say that we're wrong for what we MIGHT do--in order to be guilty of something we need to actually DO IT.
 
The thing is, though, wardenclyffe, over the last couple of pages catsmate1 pointed out that over the three independent labs there were some scientists who were 'wanting' or at least expecting a 1st century date.
 
I agree completely, but this is their mindset. If results from a pro-homeopathy lab came back in favor of homeopathy, I think our (or at least my) mindset would be very similar regarding those tests.

Ward

Are you saying the labs were in favor of a medieval date?
 
If I remember correctly, the homeopathy test involved scoring basophil granule release by eye, a very subjective test that demands double blinding. I also recall that some of the controls in the homeopathy experiments were discarded because the researchers believed that they were not "normal" (I.e. scored too close to the results desired of the experimental samples). Not surprisingly, the remaining controls scored differently from the experimental samples.

As far as I know, the 14C experiments are objective and are not susceptible to these effects. And, as pointed out, they were blinded to the scientists doing the actual analysis of the gaseous samples in two of the three samples.
 
It's quite a while since I saw that Horizon programme but IIRC the homeopathy test required the scientists to visually inspect the samples in a microscope and assign them to one of two categories. Subjective judgement was used, which is why the blinding was necessary. In the case of the C14 dating no subjective judgement is required, it's just a case of taking a reading.

Well, yes and no. It was supposed to be a pure count of affected basophils in different samples. It's an objective measure---a pure number, it's not like the subjective determination of which crystal is prettier. But it's subjective in that you have a person (and a pro-homeopathy person) doing the counting.

The pure numbers should be objective and self-evident, but you add the human factor and we (or I) see error at best and conspiracy at the worst.

Shroud believers see the same thing at work especially since they think that scientists are biased against them.

Ward
 
Blinding is one way to prevent something that is completely nefarious from happening. In the case of the homeopathy tests, I (and I assume other skeptics) expect that the lab had been skewing their own results accidentally or intentionally to make it seem like homeopathy produced positive results in the lab. The blinding in that case helps to prevent that kind of deception.

Shroudies, when you boil it down, believe that scientists are part of a grand conspiracy which includes the Catholic Church. While the machines might all be accurate, there are all kinds of opportunities to pull a switcheroo.

If the shroud controls were used in the homeopathy testing and the homeopathy results were positive, would we accept the results on face value, or would we assume that the pro-homeopathy lab was still skewing the results because they were not properly blinded?

I understand that in the case of the homeopathy test that the lab was a specific proponent of homeopathy and that in the case of the shroud test that the three independent labs had nothing to gain no matter what the outcome. But the shroud authenticity proponents, despite their claims to the contrary, are conspiracy theorists who believe that those three labs were in cahoots with the church to hide the true nature of the shroud. They believe it the same way that we would believe that a pro-homeopathy lab would cheat in order to prove that homeopathy was real.

Their beliefs are wrong and the skeptics are correct, but that's what's at work here.

Ward



OK, but that has zero to do with showing how that TV film on homeopathy might have had any relevance to what was done in the C14 dating.

The fact that shroud believers may be conspiracy theorists, does nothing at all to provide any evidence of conspiracy between the three radiocarbon labs working in different countries.

That's why I asked Jabba earlier if he was suggesting a conspiracy. To which I think he replied that he would need time to think of an answer!

So just to be clear - there is actually nothing in that Horizon program which casts any doubt on the validity of the C14 dating, right?
 
wardenclyffe said:
It's an objective measure---a pure number, it's not like the subjective determination of which crystal is prettier.
Numbers can be subjective. For example, there's all kinds of fun to be had having Creationists look at transitional fossils in the human family and define which are apes and which are humans, for example. Each Creationist will give you a hard, pure number--X are apes, Y are humans. But when you examine them en mass you discover that what's actually going on is that these people actually have an arbitrary and subjective line, and anything on one side of that subjective line is a human and anything on the other is an ape.

But it's subjective in that you have a person (and a pro-homeopathy person) doing the counting.
That's not the definition of subjectivity. It's completley irrelevant to the concept. The subjectivity would only be in terms of WHAT to count--and THAT judgement call is something that has no analogy in carbon dating.

Shroud believers see the same thing at work especially since they think that scientists are biased against them.
No, they don't. At least, Jabba doesn't. Jabba believes that the shroud is a 1st century artifact--everything else is a matter of supporting that conclusion. He doesn't believe any of it; he merely finds it a convenient rhetorical technique.

I'm saying that shroud believers seem to believe that.
Never mind the evidence.
 
Well, yes and no. It was supposed to be a pure count of affected basophils in different samples. It's an objective measure---a pure number, it's not like the subjective determination of which crystal is prettier. But it's subjective in that you have a person (and a pro-homeopathy person) doing the counting.



How did they do that counting (I have not watched that far in the film). If they did that by eye, then that IS a subjective method.

In physics experiments such as the C14, you put a sample in a machine, turn the machine on, and then wait for a set of numbers to appear on a computer screen (or ... there are loads of other ways you can do that same thing). So what you get as the outcome from your experiment is (say) "N44P77512390agL". That's it, that's your result.

To make sense of that result, you consult the theory of radioactive decay which was published and described 100 years ago, and which has been tested in the peer-reviewed literature about 1-million times without fail. And from that theory you immediately see that your result "N44P77512390agL" translates as the date 1398AD.

Even if you had some pre-conceived bias where you wanted to find some other particular date say "N03R00316640cfA", then it would be hard luck because what you got and what is stored in the machine and printed out for you was "N44P77512390agL" = 1398AD.
 
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...There are two better ways to ensure accuracy, both of which were done in this test: people with different biases (meaning desires to see different outcomes) analyzed the data and agreed that it was good, and duplicate samples were take--2 duplicates for every 1 sample, or 20 TIMES what the EPA calls for for environmental sampling. They literally took the standards, added a zero to the end, and then doubled it just to be sure.

Thanks, Dinwar. It's good to have your perspective on the dating.
 
IanS said:
If they did that by eye, then that IS a subjective method.
Not necessarily true either. If I were to count brachiopods by eye, and the brachiopods were individuals freed from matrix, it'd be objective. If I were to try to count wolves when dogs were mixed in, that would be subjective--the line between "dog" and "wolf" would be where subjectivity enters into it. Similarly, if I were trying to count closely-related species of brachiopods the results could easily be subjective (taxonomy can be objective, but it can also be rather the opposite). The reason I chose phylum Brachiopoda is that they're pretty obvious when you see them; it's hardly worth calling a judgement call to identify the phylum.

If I give you a jar of coins and ask you to count out the pennies, the results are just as objective as if I took it to one of those coin-counting machines in grocery stores. I could even ask you to find the rare coins, and while you may be wrong or right it's not subjective--there IS a right answer. It's only if I ask you to identify the clean coins, or the pretty coins, or the shiny coins that the test becomes subjective.

Subjectivity is only an issue if the test requires a judgement call. If there's no judgement call to be made in gathering the data, the data are objective--even if one of us squishy human beings does it.
 
OK, I'm going to write something that might not be all that popular around here. I think if the standards applied to the 14C testing of the shroud had been applied to the testing on homeopathy here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcBHKMJDHaU, we would not be very pleased.

I do not believe that it alters (or should alter) the outcomes of the three separate shroud tests, nor do I believe that there were any shenanigans nor do I see motive for any shenanigans.

I'm just saying that if the same standards in the shroud test had been allowed in the homeopathy test, we would not be happy with such a test.

Ward

No the standard are the same. But in medicine you do not have instrument with a known precision, instrumental derive, control sampling. So to palliate that medicine has to go one step further : the double blinding of the "measurement" instrument : the human.

This does not mean that without blinding physic is bad, it only means that due to human factor, medicine using the same method as physic would have low "precision", and thus need more safeguard to reach the same quality.

You can add blinding in physic, but as far as I can tell this is only to avoid fraud. Having multiple parallel test is better than blinding IMNSHO.
 
People here are correct: counting total cells under a microscope, even by eye, is relatively objective. Counting total basophils by eye is only slightly more subjective, depending how well the differential staining was performed (basophils are filled with blue staining granules and can usually be easily distinguished from other cell types that stain red or clear).

In contrast, counting activated basophils by eye is quite subjective because scoring a cell as activated or not is very much a matter of opinion: the extent of activation varies from cell to cell and from assay to assay. Apparently in the homeopathy study, knowledge of the sample identity combined with a desire for a given result led some researchers subconsciously to tilt their scoring criteria if the "expected " results were running too high or too low for a sample. In contrast, counting activated basophils by computer imaging, enzyme assay, or other automated methods would have been more objective.

The 14C dating generates data without a subjective intermediate step, and thus would be more like computer based scoring of activated basophils.
 
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I was about to do an annotated Cliff notes of the thread just to bring up to date the litany of promises from both Jabba and Jabbapapa, who assure us they are busily searching for the links they are sure they have, yet currently cannot find, and was happily multiquoting, until I hit this:


Just says it all, really. 139 pages about authenticity? Nah, doesn't matter, not important.

Good grief.
Well here's my summary.

Firstly the evidence against the authenticity of the shroud:
1. Historical:
a) the lack of evidence for the shroud's existence prior to the mid fourteenth century
b) it's emergence during the 'holy relic' craze (along with about forty other such burial shrouds)
c) lack of mention of a miraculously imaged Shroud in any early Christian writings
d) the distinct changes in the shroud, fading of colour, since its first exposure

2. Physiological:
e) the lack of resemblance of the shroud image to an actual human body;
f) likewise the position of the body with hands folded across the genitals which simply isn't possible for a body lying flay (the arms aren't long enough)

3. Textile:
g) the weave pattern of the shroud does not match anything known from first century Mid East
h) the weave pattern matches medieval Europe well;
i) no example of the complex herringbone twill weave has even been shown to come from the first century Mid East

4. Testimony:
j) the d'Arcis Memo indicates the shroud was created around 1354 and was a known fake

5. Artistic:
k) the face of the image resembles medieval Byzantine style, with Gothic elements;
l) the unnaturally elongated body shape and extremities are typical of the elongated style the Late Medieval/High Gothic period

6. Reproducibility:
m) contrary to the claims of shroudies the image can and has been reproduced using medieval methods

7. Analytic:
n) microscopic examination, (including non-visible, polarised light and electron microscopy) shows the shroud is composed of common artistic pigments of the period of its origin
o) chemical testing shows the same
p) radiocarbon testing, carried out under highly controlled conditions by three laboratories. showed the cloth to originate between 1260 and 1390AD (>95 per cent confidence) and between 1000 and 1500AD (>99.9 per cent confidence)

8. Cultural:

q) the shroud does not match with what is documented and known of first century Jewish burial practices
r) nor does the shroud match the only extant sample of such burial cloths;
s) neither does the shroud match the biblical accounts of the burial cloths;
t) there any no demonstrated artefacts of the putative Jesus extant today
u) the supposed historical background does not suggest that such a cloth would have been preserved, certainly without publicity prior, to ~1355

9. Serological:
v) a minor point (as blood probably wouldn't survive this long anyway) but despite the best attempts of (and much lying and pseudoscience by) shroudies, there is no evidence for blood residue

And a quick summary of the radiocarbon dating.
1. under heavy supervision a sample of the shroud were removed on 21APR1988 by Riggi; the strip came from a single site on the main body of the shroud away from any patches or charred areas and was split into three pieces and sealed into containers by Ballestrero and Tite.
2. the samples were subjected to a dating technique called accelerator mass spectroscopy, selected because it required less sample material than earlier techniques; three labs, Oxford, Arizona and Zürich were selected to carry out the testing
3. cleaning was done with expert input (including Proctor & Gamble), this removed ~30% of the sample mass. Each laboratory used slightly different methods; hot ether, ultrasonic bath, vacuum pipette, repeated acid and alkali baths with intermediate washing, detergents, ethanol, bleach
4. the three laboratories analysed shroud samples in conjunction with three other supplied sample of known provenance
5. all three analyses agreed, the shroud dates from 1260 and 1390AD (>95 per cent confidence) and between 1000 and 1500AD (>99.9 per cent confidence)
6. the results were formally published in Nature in February 1989:
“These results therefore provide conclusive evidence that the linen of the shroud of Turin is medieval”
7. accusations from believers began almost immediately accusing scientists of faking the tests or substituting samples.
8. later various claims of mysterious contaminants or patching were invoked to justify non-acceptance of the dating results

And finally more than any shroudie ever wanted to know about decontamination of the shroud samples.
Each laboratory (Zürich, Oxford and Arizona) carried out a comprehensive, multi-stage, cleaning of their sample. Firstly by microscopic examination and removal of gross contaminants, followed by preliminary cleaning using a mix of ultrasonic bathing, vacuum pipetting and/or hot ether soaking.
After this the samples were split and more stringent methods were used.

Zürich
The Zürich group split each ultrasonically cleansed sample in half; the first half of the original sample was again split into three parts and these [one sixth portions] were subjected to different tratments:
1. soaking in room temperature baths of 0.5% hydrochloric acid, 0.25% sodium hydroxide and then acid again; samples were rinsed with purified water between each course.
2. no further treatment
3. soaking in hot (80°C) 5% hydrochloric acid, 2.5% sodium hydroxide and then acid again; samples were rinsed with purified water between each course.

The second batch of samples were retained until after the first radiocarbon dating run was completed. As this showed no evidence of contamination, the second set was split into two portions, to which the weak and strong chemical treatments were applied.

Arizona
The Arizona group split the shroud sample into four subsamples.
1. one pair of subsamples was treated by soaking in dilute hydrochloric acid, dilute sodium hydroxide and again acid, with purified water rinsing in between baths.
2. the second pair of subsamples was treated with two commercial detergents (with advice supplied by Proctor & Gamble), distilled water and 0.1% hydrochloric acid; after this the samples were then submitted to a Soxhlet extraction with ethanol for an hour, followed by further washing with distilled water at 70°C in an ultrasonic bath.

Oxford

The Oxford group divided their pre-cleaned sample into three parts.
1. all three parts were bathed in 1 molar hydrochloric acid at 80°C for two hours followed by 1 molar sodium hydroxide at 80°C for two hours and again in acid, with rinsing in between.
2. two of the three samples were then bleached in 2.5% sodium oxychloride [bleach] for thirty minutes.

Each laboratory used the same techniques on the four cloth samples provided, the shroud and the three controls with one exception; one of the control samples used at Zürich disintegrated while being cleaned and so it was additionally centrifuged to retain the material.
 
What do you mean by not a skeptic ?

I am not a part of the skeptical movement. I do not associate myself with the philosophy of skepticism, particularly as presented by the advocates of it that I've seen. It's trivially easy to demonstrate that skepticism, meaning the movement, has sacred cows--wardenclyffe even admitted it. As I disagree on a number of issues, I do not consider myself a skeptic.

My point wasn't to discuss my beliefs, nor am I going to go down that rabbit hole here (someone would have to give me a VERY good reason to bother doing so anywhere before I'd do it). My point was merely to indicate that wardenclyffe had made an assumption that simply does not hold true. Not all of Jabba's opponants consider themselves skeptics. Not all scientists do, either.
 
Not necessarily true either.

...

...

Subjectivity is only an issue if the test requires a judgement call. If there's no judgement call to be made in gathering the data, the data are objective--even if one of us squishy human beings does it.



In the Horizon program that we are talking about - as I understand it from what Wardencliffe described and from what I saw in the first 20 min., - the lab staff were deciding whether or not they could see a particular visual sign in samples where they expected to see that same visual sign.

That is subjective. And does as you put it “ require a judgement call”. They saw what they wanted to see.
 
Not necessarily true either. If I were to count brachiopods by eye, and the brachiopods were individuals freed from matrix, it'd be objective.



Just as a point of interest - the above is not actually correct anyway.

You are assuming that the visual identification of your samples as “brachiopods” is always correct. However, it’s clearly quite possible that some of the samples may turn out not to have been brachiopods after all.

That might happen for all sorts of reasons. Such as, some of the fossils being badly worn, or in only minimal section, or even that they may have looked for all the world like brachiopods, but in fact eventually turn out to be a very similar but different creature.

In the context of what we are discussing with Wardenclyffe’s Horizon program, that sort of visual determination of fossils, can be open to the same sort of subjective problems if you are expecting to find “brachiopods” … when you see something that looks just like an expected brachiopod, even out of the matrix and fully prep‘d, you may incorrectly conclude that it is therefore the brachiopod that you were expecting.

I don’t really want to argue about side issues like this though ;).
 
I am not a part of the skeptical movement. I do not associate myself with the philosophy of skepticism, particularly as presented by the advocates of it that I've seen. It's trivially easy to demonstrate that skepticism, meaning the movement, has sacred cows--wardenclyffe even admitted it. As I disagree on a number of issues, I do not consider myself a skeptic.

I consider myself a sceptic simply because I try my hardest to eliminate my own biases and attempt to base my opinions on evidence as much as possible. I certainly don't achieve that all the time, but that's what I aim for. That's all scepticism is, and I find it hard to believe that you don't do either of those things.

I don't consider myself part of the "sceptic movement" and in fact am a little, well, sceptical as to it's existence in any meaningful sense. Unless posting on this board counts me as a member of the movement, in which case you are, too. But I still describe myself as a sceptic, because I attempt to approach life with a sceptical attitude.
 
Oh, that's simple. Jabba came to the conclusion that the shroud is authentic before examining any data. Now he's attempting to find data to support that notion. Anything which does not support it, he is trying to find ways to dismiss. It's a very common logical error.
.

Yep. PappaJabba seems to fall into that same trap too. Neither one of them has any sense of the scientific method.

Jabba and PappaJabba, you are both a couple of failed intellects.

I will be happy to apologize if you can demonstrate that I judged you more harshly than you deserve.
 
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