Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Darkman]

Unabogie

Is your avatar PRO or ANTI Romney?

 

[phonebook]

That's not what Richard Hornsby said.

The word "hearing" doesn't appear in any of Richard's statements. He never addresses the risks involved in a SYG hearing. I didn't share that link as the word of an expert on the current state of the case anyway, I shared it because it outlines generalities that we can apply to this case on determining who was the aggressor, and what equates to sufficient provocation, insufficient provocation, disproportionate force, etc.

 

[Dan O.]

Back to Zimmerman's NEN recording; at 54.17 seconds to 55.59 seconds, George says: "That's the, that's the clubhouse. It's at the corner of ...".

Does anyone want to guess what George says next?

 

[phonebook]

Back to Zimmerman's NEN recording; at 54.17 seconds to 55.59 seconds, George says: "That's the, that's the clubhouse. It's at the corner of ...".

Does anyone want to guess what George says next?

When you say he says "It's at the corner of... ", I think GZ is actually saying "He's at the clubhouse" (which I find confusing based on my ginormous post above). It seems to prompt the dispatcher to interrupt what he was about to say to instead say "He's near the clubhouse right now?", which I believe further confirms what I believe I hear.

 

[KatieG]

Did you learn anything from him about who was the aggressor?

Since no one saw the beginning of this encounter, we will never actually know who started the fight. Hornsby certainly doesn't know.

 

[phonebook]

Since no one saw the beginning of this encounter, we will never actually know who started the fight. Hornsby certainly doesn't know.

That kinda favors GZ in the trial then, doesn't? Beyond a reasonable doubt and all.

 

[Dan O.]

When you say he says "It's at the corner of... ", I think GZ is actually saying "He's at the clubhouse" (which I find confusing based on my ginormous post above). It seems to prompt the dispatcher to interrupt what he was about to say to instead say "He's near the clubhouse right now?", which I believe further confirms what I believe I hear.

The graph looks more like a "he's" than an "it's" because it's missing the percussive "t". However, it isn't a great match for "he's",either.

My ears are getting tired so I'll get back to it later.

 

[Cylinder]

Zimmerman's claims die when he does so there is nothing to accept.

The only self-defense claim that is equal for both parties I can craft is some bizzare misunderstanding involving a third person.

For instance, I start moving out of a house with two weeks left on the lease to take a job in another city. After I leave the house is leased out to someone who has to move in immediately. I return to my old house during the last week to do a walk-through and collect on my security deposit. When I key the door, the new occupant confonts me. An argument ensues which proves fatal. Both parties in that instance will have a very strong claim on self-defense.

The same would probably work with a vehicle. Someone steals my truck and sells it to you with a fake title. I see you getting into it at the store, so I run over, open the door and grab the keys. A fight ensues that proves fatal.

ETA: I'm working overnight at a c-store (np uniform), a guy comes in and shoves a gun in my face. I duck under the counter and retreive my handgun. The robber flees and fires a couple of parting shots on his way out. The CCW in the parking lot hears gunfire and sees a robber fleeing. He enters the store gun drawn as I'm running to lock the door. We meet at the entrance, both with firearms ready. Somebody pulls the trigger.

 

[Rare Truth]

Originally Posted by Cylinder
It is still totally dependant on the circumstance that preceded it. Accepting, arguendo, Zimmerman's claims then Martin would first be required to "withdraw from physical contact with the assailant and indicate clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force."

In the totality, Martin left the area where Zimmerman was TWICE.

Zimmerman chased/followed/pursued Martin after each departure. One demonstrated a willingness to avoid confrontation, one demonstrated a willingness to cause a confrontation.

When someone pursues you at night, in the dark, when it's raining - you take a realistic attitude they may have an intent kill, rape, or do great bodily harm.

Furthermore, when Z reached for what TM likely believed was his gun, that was an assault.

784.011 Assault.—

(1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
​

Martin was in every way in his right to Stand His Ground.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yes, I understand it is too painfully to examine your own beliefs.

Or it could be I don't care to expend the effort to have a discussion with you only to have my views called "quite discussting" and have my arguments hand-waved away with no justification other than calling them "hogwash".

But you go ahead and believe it's because it's "too painfully" to examine my own beliefs.

 

[Dan O.]

The only self-defense claim that is equal for both parties I can craft is some bizzare misunderstanding involving a third person.

You are not claiming that there is a third person in the scenario that gives Zimmerman a self defense claim. You seem to be saying that it is the story that Zimmerman tells that gives him the right to legally shoot Martin. I'm just turning that around and taking away Zimmerman's story as he had taken away Martin's. Why doesn't Martin then have the right to use deadly force against the aggressor that was in the act of drawing a gun against him?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What bothers me more is her ability to perceive someone turning around via cellphone. I mean, unless Martin said he was about to turn back toward Zimmerman.

Yes, that "letter" is quite the enigma.

"In my mind I thought it was just a fight."

 

[TheL8Elvis]

In the totality, Martin left the area where Zimmerman was TWICE.

Zimmerman chased/followed/pursued Martin after each departure. One demonstrated a willingness to avoid confrontation, one demonstrated a willingness to cause a confrontation.

When someone pursues you at night, in the dark, when it's raining - you take a realistic attitude they may have an intent kill, rape, or do great bodily harm.

Furthermore, when Z reached for what TM likely believed was his gun, that was an assault.

784.011 Assault.—

(1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
​

Martin was in every way in his right to Stand His Ground.

Unless the State of FL is claiming Trevon had a right to "Stand His Ground", I fail to see the relevance.

 

[Dan O.]

Or it could be I don't care to expend the effort to have a discussion with you only to have my views called "quite discussting" and have my arguments hand-waved away with no justification other than calling them "hogwash".

But you go ahead and believe it's because it's "too painfully" to examine my own beliefs.

I invite the readers to examine the context of those exchanges. You've had no difficulty getting back into the fray since. But when the tables turn against you it's sensitivity time and you make an excuse to run away.

 

[Dan O.]

ETA: I'm working overnight at a c-store (np uniform), a guy comes in and shoves a gun in my face. I duck under the counter and retreive my handgun. The robber flees and fires a couple of parting shots on his way out. The CCW in the parking lot hears gunfire and sees a robber fleeing. He enters the store gun drawn as I'm running to lock the door. We meet at the entrance, both with firearms ready. Somebody pulls the trigger.

This is an ideal demonstration of the mindset of the CCWer that non-carriers find scary. Someone that hasn't got a clue what's happening is rushing into a gunfight and as a result, someone is likely to get killed. What can be done to modify this behavior and reduce the risk?

 

[Rare Truth]

Unless the State of FL is claiming Trevon had a right to "Stand His Ground", I fail to see the relevance.

You fail to see the relevance as to why TM had a right to defend himself?

Seriously?

 

[WildCat]

You fail to see the relevance as to why TM had a right to defend himself?

Seriously?

From what? Being followed? Being stared at?

 

[Rare Truth]

See post #8049.

 

[johnny karate]

I didn't make it up, I confused it with his bandmate Berry Oakley, who died in almost the same spot in another motorcycle accident shortly after:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_Oakley

While we're on the subject of your confusion, I'm still waiting for you to provide the quotes of myself - or anyone - making these claims:

Upthread johnny karate claimed you had to be a medical expert and conduct tests to determine if the red stuff coming out of a wound was blood.

You have to be a medical professional and run tests to identify the mysterious red substance flowing from a wound.

Perhaps you are confused again, and it was really Berry Oakley who made those claims.

Sorry for my confusion, but the point stands - you can suffer a fatal skull fracture and not even realize anything major is wrong.

Zimmerman didn't have a skull fracture, brain injury, concussion, or even so much as a headache.

So what is the relevance of pointing out that you can have a fatal skull fracture and not know it, when Zimmerman didn't have a skull fracture?

 

[johnny karate]

This is the best link I could find that represents what I said above - Link

Perhaps Martin's family didn't know what TM was thinking "shortly before Zimmerman killed him", but the last person to talk to him before he died did:

http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/deedeestatetranscript.pdf

About halfway through page 22 to the beginning of 23.

Dee Dee says Trayvon told her that he had left his little brother at home, and he was trying to rush back home to finish watching the All-Star game.

So what we're left with is not some narrative the family put forth that needs to be refuted - as you alleged - but rather the claim of one unreliable witness that contradicts the facts (we know Martin was in no hurry to get home based on Zimmerman's NEN call and the time elapsed from when Martin left the store).

So it's back to my original question: What does Martin not sprinting directly home prove exactly?