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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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Here is W8's letter ... in "easy to read" form :)

The letter, dated March 19, 2012, offers more details into what happened. (Editor’s note: Transposed in its original form)

I was on the phone when Travon decided to go to the cornerstore [sic]. It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was raining to [sic] hard. He started walking then noticed someone was following him.
Then he decided to find a shortcut cause the man wouldn’t follow him. Then he said the man didn’t follow him again. Then he looked back and saw the man again. The man started getting closer. Then Travon turned around and said why are you following me!! [sic] Then I heard him fall. Then the phone hung up. I called back and no response. In my mind I thought it was just a fight. Then I found this tragic story.
Thank you


Read more: http://www.cfnews13.com/content/new...n/2013/3/29/george_zimmerman_cas.html?cid=rss
 
So there are a series of back and forth events which we probably will never know the complete details for. So, let's look at an alternate ending: suppose Trayvon had seen George reaching for his gun and Trayvon manages to get the gun away from George. Is Trayvon then justified in shooting George because George was most definately about to shoot Trayvon?

I agree there are a series of back and forth events which we probably will never know the complete details for.

But I don't have any desire to go any further down this rabbit hole with you.
 
It is still totally dependant on the circumstance that preceded it. Accepting, arguendo, Zimmerman's claims then Martin would first be required to "withdraw from physical contact with the assailant and indicate clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force."


And this burden does not exist for George?
 
I agree there are a series of back and forth events which we probably will never know the complete details for.

But I don't have any desire to go any further down this rabbit hole with you.


Yes, I understand it is too painfully to examine your own beliefs.
 
Just found this not long ago ... Pretty good watch from The Lip TV
(watching it / listening to it, as I type...
... last 12 minutes are "Re: GZ case") :)

Jodi Arias Prosecution Misconduct and the George Zimmerman Case w/ Michael Cavalluzzi​

Published on Mar 29, 2013​

EPISODE BREAKDOWN:
Code:
00:01 Coming up on Crime Time.
01:12 Welcoming Mike Cavalluzzi.
02:11 Prejudicing the jury and response from Juan Martinez.
05:52 A serious case of prosecutorial impropriety.
12:47 Response to Juan Martinez performance in court.
19:04 Response to the defense domestic violence allegations.
29:09 The many pieces of Jodi Arias story.
33:04 The Robert Zimmerman trial and his very vocal family.
36:52 Painting a negative picture of Trayvon Martin.
 
Okay, let's do this thoroughly, using Zimmerman's reenactment, and his police call.

In the first couple of minutes of the reenactment, Zimmerman describes that Martin was walking slowly. Note that at 1:00 in this video, Zimmerman claims that Martin stops walking, and looks around at the edge of the road. But we can see that there's no sidewalk on the side of the street where Martin is, and a sidewalk on the other side - and that Zimmerman is driving towards him. It seems likely to me that Martin was simply trying to cross the street, and waiting for Zimmerman to pass.

What you say here makes sense to me. Perhaps TM was just checking to see if the coast was clear before he crossed the road (and he did cross the road, I believe), and GZ attributed a peculiarity to something that was essentially innocuous. Our knowledge of what TM was specifically doing at that time is only as good as GZ is at describing things, and what he remembers. For whatever reason, whether justified or not, GZ's suspicions were raised.

Zimmerman also states "I had never seen him before", which indicates that he got a decent look at him - and thus knew his skin color when he called the police.

I don't think he necessarily "got a decent look at him". TM's build is somewhat unusual, being fairly tall and relatively slim, so perhaps that played a significant part in GZ recognizing he wasn't familiar with this person, especially as this person was standing outside of Frank Taaffe's house (1460 RVC). It was dark and rainy, so I doubt GZ got a clear look at TM's face, though I don't doubt that he noticed TM had a dark complexion. GZ stated he believed TM was black, "He looks black", but because he repeated himself later, "And he's a black male", I don't think he was 100% certain when he first mentioned it.

At 2:20 in his reenactment, Zimmerman claims that Martin walked past him (and in front of his car, indicating that Martin did cross the street), and that Martin was looking at him. This correlates well with the section beginning at 0:50 in Zimmerman's police call, where he claims that Martin is "staring at [him]", "and affirms that Martin is "by the clubhouse".

Having listened to various recordings of GZ attempting to recollect the sequence of events, I don't believe GZ had actually gotten through to the NEN at this point. I'm not sure how many people know this, but he did not get through immediately when he first called the NEN. He was either put into some sort of queue, or had to call back repeatedly before he finally got through. I honestly wonder if GZ remembers where he was, specifically, when he finally got through to non-emergency. Therefore, the 0:50 mark on the NEN call I believe took place after TM initially passed him at the clubhouse.

2:35 in his reenactment is where things start to go off the rails. Here, Zimmerman claims that the dispatcher asks him where Martin went, and to please move in order to find him. This does not occur in his police recording. Instead, the dispatch asks Martin to tell him if Martin does anything, and that he has officers on the way. Roughly a minute later, Zimmerman begins giving instructions on how the police can find them - first stating that they should make a left immediately upon entering, and then stating that they should go straight. This would make sense if Martin had turned the corner while Zimmerman was giving directions - but it also gives reason to believe that Zimmerman is following Martin in his car.

I don't believe GZ had the benefit of having heard the NEN call at this point to jog his memory of what happened, and in what order the events took place (in one of the interviews GZ says - "I don't even remember saying he had a button on his shirt"). I think it's important to first consider GZ's story about what happened as true, and then take into account what he went through: being confronted in the dark by someone whom he believed may have been a criminal, getting punched in the face (the blow that likely broke his nose), head slammed on the ground several times, screaming for his life for perhaps a minute or more (where no one came out to assist him), and ultimately feeling his assailant was reachign for his weapon, compelling GZ to use his weapon to save his own life (what he believed, anyway). How crystal clear should his memory be of things that may have seemed somewhat trivial at the time, and occurred before all this? When taking into account the inconsistencies, you have to ask yourself if inconsistencies are consistent with someone who went through what GZ says he went through.

Beginning at roughly 3:30 in the reenactment, Zimmerman states that he pulls up near the sidewalk at the T- Junction, that he sees Martin look back at him, that Martin goes behind the houses, but then walks back, and circles his car. This is both missing from the police call, and absurd, as Martin could not have possibly covered the required distance in the amount of time covered by the police call, while "casually walking" (realistically, Martin would actually be at the corner of the westmost end of Twin Trees when he began running). Also, people don't circle cars. Note also, that this is where Zimmerman says that Martin "had his hand in his waistband". So he is likely conflating Martin walking by him at the clubhouse, with this invented event.

I believe GZ was actually already on Twin Trees at this point, or was just turning onto Twin Trees near the beginning of the NEN call. I think what you're referring to above actually happens at 0:58 of the NEN (in my .WAV copy, anyway), starting with "Yeah, now he's coming towards me", and ending with the "These ********, they always get away", comment.

From 4:00 to 4:40 of the reenactment, Zimmerman claims that the dispatch asks, multiple times for an address or for directions to get to him. This is presumably immediately after Trayvon runs off, and he uses this to explain that the need of an address is why he got out of a car. In the police call, this does not happen, and the only thing that the dispatcher says before Zimmerman opens his car door is "He's running? Which way is he running?", at 2:20.

They do ask for an address from him, multiple times, but it's after he's out of his car, and after GZ says "He ran", which I assume means he has lost sight of TM. Again, I think this is because of the situation GZ had been put through the night before, him not having the luxury of being able to review the NEN call to jog his understandably jolted memory, and doing his best to piece together the sequence of events.

In his re-enactment, Zimmerman begins his supposed walk to the other end of the T-junction at roughly 5:03, pauses at 5:53 at the T-Junction for another statement that does not appear in the police call, resumes walking at 6:06, and ends at 6:30. However, in his police all, Zimmerman begins moving at roughly 2:24, affirms that he is following Martin at 2:29, and seemingly ends movement at 2:42. Again, the times simply don't match up - there was no way for Zimmerman to have walked to the other end of the walkway in the given time, even assuming that he was at the west end of it when he started.

I don't think he's being expected to give, or would be expected to remember, the second-by-second details of his exact movement the night before. He pauses at 5:53 in the reenactment, but that appears to be to pause to explain to the investigators with him what he was thinking at the time, not necessarily an attempt to duplicate an action from the night before (notice that he pauses to gather his thoughts), and explains that he continues on to RVC. In a number of his interviews, he claims to have not stopped at the T, and that he continued on to RVC. I don't think he necessarily stopped moving on the NEN call at 2:42. There's no way to conclusively tell.

Here's something interesting, At 6:50 in his reenactment, Zimmerman states that the dispatcher asks him where he wants to meet with police, and Zimmerman states that his car is "next to the clubhouse", which is not how I would describe the location where he said his car was previously, but would fit in well if he got out to chase Martin while they were, well, by the clubhouse.

I think his description is just pretty broad in this respect. The clubhouse is the closest clearly recognizable landmark he can refer to in relation to where his truck was parked.

But this means that, rather than walking to the east end of the walkway, he likely stopped at the *west* end. In other words, there's virtually no chance that he was somehow blindsided by Martin while walking through the T-Junction back to his truck.

I think you're basing that on assuming he parked closer to the clubhouse, but he placed his truck much closer to the T earlier in the reenactment. I think him describing his truck as "next to the clubhouse" is just his not-very specific description of where he actually parked. Directions are clearly not his thing.

In any case, looking at his police recording, at roughly 3:50, Zimmerman rejects the idea of meeting police by the mailboxes, instead asking that they call him when they are nearby so that he can tell them where he is.

The dispatcher offers that meetup location because GZ isn't able to offer the dispatcher an address for where GZ parked his truck, and again, we're assuming (I am anyway), that GZ is on RVC at this point (a ways away from the clubhouse). He accepts the idea at first, kinda absent-mindedly IMO ("Yeah, that's fine..."), then asks the dispatcher if the responding police officer can call him upon arrival, so he can let them know where he's at (maybe he's undecided where to best meet them at that point), which the dispatcher says "OK. Yeah, that's no problem."

Now, let's shift gears a bit. At 3:20, the dispatcher asks Zimmerman where he's parked in front of. But at this point, Zimmerman has already abandoned his truck, so of course he can't simply look and see a house number. So basically, he's scrambling events badly in his reenactment. At 3:40, he claims "I don't know where this kid is", which contradicts his claim that he thought Martin had vanished in his reenactment.

Good point about him not being in a location to see an address. How does that statement contradict his statement that he had vanished?

Another odd thing - Zimmerman claims at 7:24 in his walkthrough that, while walking back to his truck, he looks down the southern path, sees nothing, and continues walking, but that Martin then appears saying "Yo, you got a problem!?" Um, why would Martin do this? Zimmerman has already past him, so whatever it is that Martin was supposedly doing wrong (and we have no evidence he was doing anything wrong at all) why would he suddenly coalesce from the shadows to pick a one on one fight - especially since he literally ran away from Zimmerman not too long before? It seems much more likely to me that Zimmerman ended his police call, and then continued his pursuit of Martin.

One can only speculate about this, so here goes: Until that point, TM had only viewed GZ while he was in his truck... perhaps after seeing GZ outside of his vehicle, TM didn't find GZ to appear so intimidating. Perhaps GZ had caused TM to feel a little anxious, or maybe a little afraid, by following him around; this could have turned into anger once TM realized GZ was not worthy of being afraid of. The actions of teenage males aren't always easily explainable or understandable.

Note that this is just a comparison of Zimmerman's claim, with his own police call. It doesn't go into the risible dialogue Zimmerman attributes to Martin, why Martin would bother mounting Zimmerman when he could easily just kick him in the head, how Martin could have spotted Zimmerman's gun while sitting on his waist, how Zimmerman could scream for help while unable to breathe, and other issues with his story.

Well, TM DID mount GZ, unless you think Witness 6/"John" is lying, or it's just a coincidence that what he says he saw matches what GZ claims to have happened. As to the whys? Who knows... teenage males... Why didn't any of the neighbors come out to help? Lots of questions about that night.

TM may have never actually seen GZ's gun, in the reenactment GZ says "He saw it... I feel like he saw it... He looked at it". It's possible TM didn't see it, though GZ does also say it's at this time that he's trying to scoot backwards away from the sidewalk, which caused his jacket to come up away from his waist, which would have likely exposed his weapon to view.

At one point in Witness 11's 911 call, there is a ~7-second interruption in the screams... this could have been a time where TM was covering GZ's mouth and nose, preventing him from breathing and screaming. Obviously GZ isn't suggesting TM covered his nose and mouth the entire time, because GZ also claims TM used his hands to punch GZ in the face, and slam his head against the concrete. At some point though, GZ claims TM did this.

And yes, this is a wall o' text. Sometimes, such things are necessary. The point is, it seems that Zimmerman followed Martin both in his car, and on foot. And thus, it's pretty reasonable that Martin would ask Zimmerman "Why are you following me?", and that Zimmerman, convinced without reason that Martin was up to no good, would reply "What are you doing here?"

Well... that's Dee Dee's version of what happened, and after the events over the past week or two regarding her, I'm not so sure if any of her testimony will make it to trial.

Here's a matching (and even bigger!) wall of text for ya.
 
Cuz maybe he doesn't have a chance with this judge or the likes of her.

His only hope now is "jurors", the way I see it.
 
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