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Slowvehicle said:
Hello, skyrider44:

Are you back to post that list of the anachronisms from the BoM that have, by means of practical., empirical, physical evidence attested to by neutral scholars, been demonstrated to have existed in the pre-Colombian Americas?
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He'll get to it right after he explains the role of faith in the scientific method.
 
This morning, I finally realized why the Mormon faith will never be one I could accept. It's not the fact that the prophet was a know con man. The Christian narrative of redemption could explain that. The Apostle for which I am named was once a tack collector, and Jesus redeemed him.

It's not the anachronisms in the Book of Moron, or even the fact that the Perl of Great Price and the Book of Abraham were not really translated from Egyptian texts. No, it's something more present and fundamental.

Coffee.

Allow me to explain. This morning I was exhausted. I was tired. I was in desperate need of more sleep, but had to get up anyway. Then I drank some coffee, and I felt better. Despite having eaten a lot of binding food this weekend, I won't get backed up, thanks to the coffee. I'll be able to have a productive day at work, thanks to the coffee.

What kind of loving God would create such a useful, beneficial plant, and then ban us from using it? How perverse, sadistic and outright EVIL would god have to be to create something so grand and deny us the permission to use it?

Burying fossils to make a 6,000 year old Earth look millions of years old? OK, that could just be playful. Refusing to tell us WHICH religion is RIGHT, that could be testing us. Cruel, yes, but creating coffee and then denying it to us is not just cruel, it's juvenile and taunting, it's waving a carrot in front of a hungry animal and saying "no-no, YOU don't get to eat it!"

I could never be Mormon, because their version of God is a rotten little **** who desperately needs a good, hard, swift kick in the balls.
 
I enjoy these in-depth theological considerations, halleyscomet.
Granules, French roast, torrefacto?
 
pakeha said:
I enjoy these in-depth theological considerations, halleyscomet.
Granules, French roast, torrefacto?
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Thank you.

Ideally, Tanzanian Peaberry roasted either by myself on my gas grill or from Red Barn roasters.

I've become quite fond of roasting my own coffee in a cast iron skillet. I find the uneven roast that results provides me with a blend of the attributes of various roast levels. I get some of the dark char notes from a French roast while preserving some of the lighter aromatics of a Full City roast. I use the outdoor gas grill because that keeps the entire house from smelling like coffee roasting, a rather burnt, pungent aroma. This in turn makes roasting my own coffee a seasonally influenced task, making it something of a treat, like kumquats or perfectly ripe apricots.
 
Um, this is not Coffee Time...


Jus' Sayin'
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
 
kmortis said:
Um, this is not Coffee Time...


Jus' Sayin'
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
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Sorry for the inadvertent thread-jacking.

To get back on topic, why aren't Mormons allowed to drink coffee? What is the scriptural justification for this?

Can they eat foods that are made with coffee, such as a Tiramisu?

Are ALL caffeinated things banned, or just drinks with caffeine?

Is chocolate allowed?

If chocolate in food is allowed, but coffee in food is not, why? Shouldn't they both be banned or both allowed?

What about tea?

Can an LDS Mormon eat Mochi, even though green tea is a common ingredient?

And yes, I'm asking these questions seriously. I'm not trying to be a jerk and thread-jack, I'm asking serious questions about religious dietary restrictions.
 
abaddon said:
Agreed.

"abdication of mind" a very apt phrase.
Yep, There are those of a more thoughtful, enlightened nature, Mrs Pup being one.


Don't undersell yourself. You are as good, or mature as anyone else.
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Why, thank you!

Is that a case of Abaddon hope? :D boo-boom!

I appreciate your kind words, and I agree I'm as good as anyone, but I do perceive that I have streaks of immaturity when it comes to having forebearance with people like Janadele and sky rider.... they have riled my distaste to anger, and I became petty and spiteful before I quit coming in here a few weeks ago.... quite an accomplishment for so called xtians, eh?

Anyway, I'll leave you all to it. Be well, everyone! See you elsewhere! :)
 
halleyscomet said:
Sorry for the inadvertent thread-jacking.

To get back on topic, why aren't Mormons allowed to drink coffee? What is the scriptural justification for this?

Can they eat foods that are made with coffee, such as a Tiramisu?

Are ALL caffeinated things banned, or just drinks with caffeine?

Is chocolate allowed?

If chocolate in food is allowed, but coffee in food is not, why? Shouldn't they both be banned or both allowed?

What about tea?

Can an LDS Mormon eat Mochi, even though green tea is a common ingredient?

And yes, I'm asking these questions seriously. I'm not trying to be a jerk and thread-jack, I'm asking serious questions about religious dietary restrictions.
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According to Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom

The original prohibition was on "hot drinks" which would seem to imply that coffee, tea, chocolate, Bovril, Hot Ribena and all other hot beverages would be prohibited.

I didn't realise the LDS were discouraged from eating meat:

“flesh also of beasts and of fowls of the air... are to be used sparingly........it is pleasing unto [God] that they should not be used, [except] in times of winter, or of cold, or famine"
 
The Don said:
According to Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom

The original prohibition was on "hot drinks" which would seem to imply that coffee, tea, chocolate, Bovril, Hot Ribena and all other hot beverages would be prohibited.

I didn't realise the LDS were discouraged from eating meat:

“flesh also of beasts and of fowls of the air... are to be used sparingly........it is pleasing unto [God] that they should not be used, [except] in times of winter, or of cold, or famine"
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Wow.

Do LDS Mormons adhere to that prohibition against eating meat except in times of dire need?
 
pakeha said:
Then the LDS would have no objection to Eiskaffee?
[qimg]http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1603/eiskaffeeu.jpg[/qimg]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom#Hot_drinks
Generally, members of the church view the prohibition on "hot drinks" as covering coffee and tea, whether or not the drinks are hot. There is generally thought to be no prohibition against herbal tea, hot chocolate, or malt drinks such as Ovaltine or Milo. Other members choose to prohibit themselves from drinking any beverage that contains caffeine. Joel H. Johnson, with whose family the Prophet Joseph Smith was intimate, relates that on a Sabbath day in July (1833) following the giving of the "Word of Wisdom," when both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in the stand, the Prophet said to the Saints: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'(Johnson, J. H., A Voice from the Mountains, p. 12)
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Seriously?

If God meant "Coffee and Tea, be it hot or cold" then why not just say as much? And if God said "Hot Drinks" then ban ALL Hot Drinks and don't pretend there are a bunch of loopholes that aren't there.

At least Christians as a whole have the "Incident at Antioch" to fall back on to explain why we eat Pork. This inconsistency with "hot drinks" is just absurd.

Can a practicing or former Mormon give me some clarification? Is it really as haphazard as the text suggests? Can anyone answer my original questions?
 
...Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'(Johnson, J. H., A Voice from the Mountains, p. 12)
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So no Eiskaffee at the Bayreuth Festival for anyone thinking of converting to the LDS. :(

Somehow it's hard to think of white tea as a devil's snare, though.
Here's a rationalisation of the origins of this practice I read here
http://www.ineedcoffee.com/08/mormons-coffee/
For example, Andrew Child's Overland Route guidebook included foodstuff recommendation for three men to include 50 pounds of coffee and 2 pounds of tea, even the LDS leadership recommended packing coffee, tea, and alcohol for the 1846 overland journey. But while they were packing the wagons, they may have contemplated the advantages of quitting any coffee or tea habit they had acquired while living in Illinois. They were fleeing religious persecution, after all, so they intended to minimize contact with non-believers, and coffee and tea won't grow in Utah. So, to some extent, the rejection of tea and coffee amongst the Mormon Pioneers was a mechanism for building Mormon identity at the most basic, formative, constitutive level. ...
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As I say, it's an intellectual side-step to avoid the crux of the matter- the LDS' acceptance of Smith's divine revelation.
 
halleyscomet said:
Wow.

Do LDS Mormons adhere to that prohibition against eating meat except in times of dire need?
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No. I didn't even remember that was part of the WoW until this thread. It's generally not mentioned, IIRC, and I don't think I know any Mormons who think too much about that part of it.

The "hot drinks" origin was explained by Pup earlier. In the early 1800's hot drinks were considered to be the source of all sorts of medical conditions, so JS wasn't being original, he was simply going along with what was a current fad.

When I was a kid, my siblings and I were expressly forbidden to drink anything with caffeine, although my father drank coffee every day (and we even made it for him. That wasn't a problem for my mother as long as we didn't drink it ourselves.) Today, the WoW is frequently interpreted as strictly tea/coffee, and many Mormons will drink caffeinated sodas.

ETA: Mormons aren't the only ones who play fast and loose with their dietary restrictions. Our family never had to go along with the Catholic no-meat/fish Fridays because my father was military, so we were able to eat meat under the military exemption, even when he wasn't away on TDY or at war.
 
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Empress said:
Today, the WoW is frequently interpreted as strictly tea/coffee, and many Mormons will drink caffeinated sodas.
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When I was in high school, I was friends with a Mormon kid. He was definitely not allowed to drink caffeinated sodas, and look quite shocked and dismayed when I pointed out to him that the Cherry Coke (yes, it was the '80s!) he was drinking had caffeine in it. Of course he always did have a bit of a stick up his rear orifice, so I wouldn't be surprised if he took the rule a bit further than he had to!
 
Jon. said:
When I was in high school, I was friends with a Mormon kid. He was definitely not allowed to drink caffeinated sodas, and look quite shocked and dismayed when I pointed out to him that the Cherry Coke (yes, it was the '80s!) he was drinking had caffeine in it. Of course he always did have a bit of a stick up his rear orifice, so I wouldn't be surprised if he took the rule a bit further than he had to!
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Heh. Cherry Coke. Forgot about that. I was in HS at that time, too, but I don't recall if I ever tried the stuff. I'm a Diet Dew girl, myself.

deaman said:
For some reason, the "hot drinks" reference, sounds like it's talking about booze.
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The "strong drink" refers to booze, but originally it probably didn't refer to beer or wine, as JS apparently partook of those with some frequency. In fact, some people claim that Smith had a liquor license for his home:

"Section 1 - Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the Mayor [Joseph Smith] of the city is hereby authorized to sell or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort, or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time." History of the Church Vol 6
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It was only later that all alcoholic beverages were proscribed.
 
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