WTC Dust Study Feb 29, 2012 by Dr. James Millette

[Oystein]

...
(I think that Oystein has found some additional - and contradicting? - data in Ferranti's thesis, I will check it...)

Yes. According to Ferranti, epoxy has an exotherm I think slightly under 400 °C associated with some phase transition (amorphous->crystalline, iirc) within the epoxy matrix, followed, just above 400 °C, by the endotherm decomposition / release of gas. Exact figures of course always depend on specifics of the epoxy (pure or mixed, curing agent, degree of crosslinking etc)

 

[skyrider44]

Let me help you:


Harrit also does not document any of this crucial element.

Calling Colonel Flagg. . .calling Colonel Flagg. . .calling Colonel Flagg.

 

[chrismohr]

Why is everyone avoiding this? What´s wrong? Just ask Millette to prove that Sunstealer is right about epoxy making the reduced spheres, and publish the paper. End of story.

I don't talk about Jim Millette's plans. Generally, I am asking around about the idea of cooking up some known paint chips (non-WTC) on rust, iron or steel to see if iron-rich spheres are created in sub-iron-melting heat.

 

[jtl]

Mohr:

I don't talk about Jim Millette's plans. Generally, I am asking around about the idea of cooking up some known paint chips (non-WTC) on rust, iron or steel to see if iron-rich spheres are created in sub-iron-melting heat.

The issue is not really if Millette or someone else does the experiments to prove Sunstealer´s theory, the important thing is that someone does it, and publishes the result.

Why is it that Sunstealer and buddies on this forum did not request that Millette would test and prove their theory of epoxy making the spheres from the gray layer? Are they afraid that their theory is really just unprovable hogwash? It sure looks like it.

Do you find it acceptable that Sunstealer calls Harrit et al frauds and charlatans behind his fake name, while he asks people to take his word for it that his sphere theory is correct?

Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence

 

[beachnut]

I don't talk about Jim Millette's plans. Generally, I am asking around about the idea of cooking up some known paint chips (non-WTC) on rust, iron or steel to see if iron-rich spheres are created in sub-iron-melting heat.

There are iron rich spheres in my fire ashes where we cook marshmellows...
It is silly the iron rich spheres are used by 911 truth gullible followers to support the failed fantasy. It is the weakest part of their fantasy, doubt they looked at fire products. 911 truth never uses science, they abuse science.

It does not matter if thermite produces iron rich spheres, the WTC fires did it without thermite. The iron rich spheres, a red herring; 911 truth thermite leaders have no evidence.

Millette's results will not change the minds of the knowledge free 911 truth followers. Gage is too busy cashing in on 911 kooks to fund studies which would ruin his gravy-train; a million dollars and counting. Thermite did 911, the nonsense of a few old nuts who can't figure out 911.

 

[DGM]

The issue is not really if Millette or someone else does the experiments to prove Sunstealer´s theory, the important thing is that someone does it, and publishes the result.

Why's that? I don't expect you to acknowledge this but, if everyone here did nothing, The result would be the same. No one has shown any interest in this paper except people that are told they should= you (and a few people that enjoy it as a hobby).

Why does this need "debunking". Bet you won't answer this.

 

[skyrider44]

Thanks, Chris, and thanks to Dr. Millette.

At last, redemption. I got kicked off the Freedom Forum for opposing the so-called Truthers. It turns out that they were wrong from Day 1. Chris and Dr. Millette have left them in the dust.

 

[pgimeno]

Jones and his merry band won't even supply red/gray chips so they can be analysed independently - the true mark of a disingenuous fraudster. They are cowards to a man.

Indeed. Lying with the data makes it relatively easy to get caught. Cherry-picking data, however, is a subtler way of lying, because no one knows what data you've hidden.

If Jones et al. provide purportedly "thermitic" chips for independent analysis, their cherry-picking would be exposed. Chips like a-d would then be shown to be the same Millette analyzed, and thus being paint, having high resistivity, behaving as Millette's chips did in MEK, etc. A chip like the MEK one would be shown to be Tnemec when properly analyzed, and to not produce any microspheres when fried. The low resistivity chip would be shown to not be paint nor thermite. The FTIR-analyzed chip would be shown to have nothing in common with the rest, and the FTIR results would be shown to prove something more prosaic. And so on.

Or why does anyone think that they didn't keep doing the experiments with the same chips a-d that they analyzed? Why does anyone think that every chip tested is different, and there's no battery of tests performed to the same chip or group of chips?

 

[Spanx]

I don't talk about Jim Millette's plans.

Good for you Chris.

Could you imagine the BS that would spread across the net if someone like jtl got hold of any of Millette's plans

If Millette wants to get his work peer reviewed, it's up to him. The only people pressuring is people like jtl

Jtl is under the impression that $1000 buys Millette's services for life. Maybe jtl is from a third world country where a $1000 is a years wage

Either way it's good to see that the last few truthers are coming out with gems of stupidity.

 

[Sunstealer]

Good for you Chris.

Could you imagine the BS that would spread across the net if someone like jtl got hold of any of Millette's plans

If Millette wants to get his work peer reviewed, it's up to him. The only people pressuring is people like jtl

Jtl is under the impression that $1000 buys Millette's services for life. Maybe jtl is from a third world country where a $1000 is a years wage

Either way it's good to see that the last few truthers are coming out with gems of stupidity.

That is an excellent point. Truthers don't seem to realise that Chris Mohr got an excellent deal for the work Millette did. If that had been at commercial rates, the bill would have run into thousands of dollars. Lab time; the use of equipment and the personnel, let alone all the other add on costs is very expensive.

Truthers also don't realise that Millette works for a living and therefore will be busy, he's not going to be able to drop everything at a moments notice and bend to the whims of people who won't believe the results of any testing he does anyway.

Not one truther has actually performed any analysis on Millette's data and compared that data to Harrit et al. Not one. If they did then they would come to the conclusion that chips a-d are the same as the chips Millette performed FTIR and SEM-SAED on.

Truthers don't understand why Millette used a very specific criteria using Harrit et al's own data to ensure he had the same material to further analyse.

 

[chrismohr]

Sunstealer, maybe Oystein remembers who this guy is, but there was a 9/11 truth guy who did at least a partial analysis of Millette's data and concluded that the Harrit/Jones paper was wrong. He had been a fierce and relatively knowledgeable supporter of the Active Thermitic Materials paper, and the Millette report caused him to change his tune drastically. He explained his reasons publicly on blogs etc. It may not have been a full analysis, but it was enough to convince him to completely change his tune on the thermite-in-the-dust debate.

 

[Senenmut]

Not one truther has actually performed any analysis on Millette's data and compared that data to Harrit et al. Not one. If they did then they would come to the conclusion that chips a-d are the same as the chips Millette performed FTIR and SEM-SAED on.

Truthers don't understand why Millette used a very specific criteria using Harrit et al's own data to ensure he had the same material to further analyse.

millette did not get iron and silicon rich microspheres therefore we do not know that they are the same material. replicate the experiments......its one of the main principles of the scientific method. if he did not get iron and silicon rich microspheres then he could say he did not have the same chips. if he did get iron and silicon rich microspheres then he could therefore say he did have the same chips and go into what he thinks made the silicon and iron rich microspheres from there.

 

[Senenmut]

Sunstealer, maybe Oystein remembers who this guy is, but there was a 9/11 truth guy who did at least a partial analysis of Millette's data and concluded that the Harrit/Jones paper was wrong. He had been a fierce and relatively knowledgeable supporter of the Active Thermitic Materials paper, and the Millette report caused him to change his tune drastically. He explained his reasons publicly on blogs etc. It may not have been a full analysis, but it was enough to convince him to completely change his tune on the thermite-in-the-dust debate.

you know the dillio.....
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

 

[Senenmut]

Fig 5 in Harrit et al clearly shows hexagonal platelets larger than 1µm in diameter.

The post DSC residue Fig 21 clearly shows more than one hexagonal platelet. The one resting on the sphere is simply the largest and clearest of them.

Fig 21 also has the same platelets in post DSC residue.

Funny the way your mind doesn't work. A particle with the exact same characteristics as all the others but simply to the right of the Gaussian distribution and you dismiss it because you would rather use the maximum amount of wilful ignorance instead of facing reality.

did they do a XEDS spectra on any of those larger particles?

 

[beachnut]

Sunstealer, maybe Oystein remembers who this guy is, but there was a 9/11 truth guy who did at least a partial analysis of Millette's data and concluded that the Harrit/Jones paper was wrong. He had been a fierce and relatively knowledgeable supporter of the Active Thermitic Materials paper, and the Millette report caused him to change his tune drastically. He explained his reasons publicly on blogs etc. It may not have been a full analysis, but it was enough to convince him to completely change his tune on the thermite-in-the-dust debate.

Bet he looked back at the Jones paper and saw they never backed up the thermite claim. The easy part, the energy does not match, so they make up why the energy does not match. Then the energy not only does not match thermite, it is lower and higher; More Hand Waving.

Then the DSC does not match; Seriously, I looked up DSC of soil and carbonize wood, and it matches the DSC better, why, who cares, DSC is not used to match material, it has a use, and it is not needed for this study.

Then the spectrum in the study, look like they were cherry-picked, not representative of the material in general, but specific parts were studied to maximize the elements they wanted to put in the paper; so they could Wave their Hands and Declare, Thermite. They explain extra elements as contamination, or other reasons to fool the gullible. We have proponents (the gullible) desperate, presenting why Si is in the samples; they present method for coating Al. Desperation, they can't leave their rotten fantasy.

Look at the supporters desperation, posting nonsense to support their Fantasy Masters of Woo, Jones, Harrit, and Gage.

 

[jtl]

Sunstealer:

That is an excellent point. Truthers don't seem to realise that Chris Mohr got an excellent deal for the work Millette did. If that had been at commercial rates, the bill would have run into thousands of dollars. Lab time; the use of equipment and the personnel, let alone all the other add on costs is very expensive.

Truthers also don't realise that Millette works for a living and therefore will be busy, he's not going to be able to drop everything at a moments notice and bend to the whims of people who won't believe the results of any testing he does anyway.
Not one truther has actually performed any analysis on Millette's data and compared that data to Harrit et al. Not one. If they did then they would come to the conclusion that chips a-d are the same as the chips Millette performed FTIR and SEM-SAED on.

Truthers don't understand why Millette used a very specific criteria using Harrit et al's own data to ensure he had the same material to further analyse.

Steven Jones:

Why would he not measure the electrical resistivity of his red material (discussed in our paper) right off? That's what gets me – he could have saved himself a lot of time. Finally he gets to TEM analysis, and finds that he has titanium oxide! How can he claim its the same material? What a waste of time.

Millette chose chips that soften in MEK despite instructions not to, and then he refuses the ignition tests. Does not tests the resident JREF(molten spheres from the gray layers)theory. No review and no publishing. This you call a good deal, but some got to wonder if this is how Millette ended up with fraud charges for his past dust studies?

If Sunstealer had any confidence in his theory that epoxy made the molten spheres from gray layers, he would have made sure that Millette would test and prove his theory. A real scientist would make sure.

He would also not resort to(again)desperate tactics like pretending no truther has responded to Millette´s data, while he knows that Jones is on record pointed out faults, and his comments have been discussed here before. Sunstealer tried the same trick less than 3 weeks ago, and my response then:

WOW, are you REALLY this desperate?
It has been just a couple of days since you tried the old JREF "I remember nothing" trick:

And now, less than 3 weeks later, Sunstealer tries the same old trick, probably in a desperate effort to divert attention from answering a simple question:

Why is it that Sunstealer and buddies on this forum did not request that Millette would test and prove their theory of epoxy making the spheres from the gray layer? Are they afraid that their theory is really just unprovable hogwash? It sure looks like it.

The fact that Sunstealer responded to this question with a repeat of his "I remember nothing trick" is a conclusive answer.

And Mohr doesn´t want to talk about Millette´s plans, or more likely does not want to tell people that Millette will not test Sunstealer´s sphere theory, and perhaps that his paper will never be published.

....good job people...impressive stuff

 

[jtl]

Mohr: Sunstealer, maybe Oystein remembers who this guy is, but there was a 9/11 truth guy who did at least a partial analysis of Millette's data and concluded that the Harrit/Jones paper was wrong.

WOW, some one guy you don´t remember changed his mind. Was this before Jones commented on the paper and pointed out problems? Had this guy seen Ryan´s FTIR? How about the fraud charges against Millette?

Why doesn´t Millette submit his paper to a journal for publishing?

 

[beachnut]

Jones- thermite nut:
Why would he not measure the electrical resistivity of his red material (discussed in our paper) right off? That's what gets me – he could have saved himself a lot of time. Finally he gets to TEM analysis, and finds that he has titanium oxide! How can he claim its the same material? What a waste of time.

You are fooled by a resistivity test? lol, that is cool how Jones can say jump, and 911 truth jumps, 911 truth mindlessly repeating nonsense from the woo-guru-thermite-nut Jones.

LOL, in the paper they prove they don't have thermite, as each chip was not the same, each chip released different amounts of energy. Not one chip had the same spectrum, not one matched thermite.

How can Jones have thermite when nothing matches thermite; even the DSC does not match. It takes nuts like Harrit and Jones to make up reasons for each anomaly in their paper, and stick with their lie of thermite.

Millette's results show no thermite. Jones cherry-picked presentation in the vanity journal paper shows no themite.

How can Jones claim it's thermite when the energy does not match? 911 truth followers are very gullible, persistent in woo, as they avoid careful study of the wording the paper, and the cherry-picked figures which don't prove thermite. Woo-science used to fool the gullible.

Blind attacks on Millette's findings, unable to figure out 911, attacking truth. Irony

 

[Oystein]

Sunstealer, maybe Oystein remembers who this guy is, but there was a 9/11 truth guy who did at least a partial analysis of Millette's data and concluded that the Harrit/Jones paper was wrong. He had been a fierce and relatively knowledgeable supporter of the Active Thermitic Materials paper, and the Millette report caused him to change his tune drastically. He explained his reasons publicly on blogs etc. It may not have been a full analysis, but it was enough to convince him to completely change his tune on the thermite-in-the-dust debate.

Not sure who you are talking about - possibly Snowcrash, real name Michiel de Boer from the Netherlands? Used to be active at truthaction.org, the911forum and 911Blogger. He understood that Millette disproved Jones and the others, but believes the problem with Harrit et al. is the data, not the interpretation, and actually banned me at Truthaction as a disinfo shill for saying that Harrit et al.'s data is probably genuine
But SnowCrash had already come to realize that all CD-theories are dead ends and probably bunk.

Or perhaps you think of ScootleRoyale, a contributor to Debunking the Debunkers, who sometime last year wrote an article about how Millette now made him doubt the veracity of the thermite claims? I don't see him having turned on the issue, he has remained silent since.

 

[Sunstealer]

millette did not get iron and silicon rich microspheres therefore we do not know that they are the same material. replicate the experiments......its one of the main principles of the scientific method. if he did not get iron and silicon rich microspheres then he could say he did not have the same chips. if he did get iron and silicon rich microspheres then he could therefore say he did have the same chips and go into what he thinks made the silicon and iron rich microspheres from there.

Try reading what I wrote and not want you want to read into it.

Learn how to play snap - the card game where you deal out a set of cards and lay them down in turn. When two cards match shout snap. The first to shout picks the cards up. Winner is the one left with all the cards.

You'll lose quite a lot of games because at the moment you aren't able to match patterns.

Here is a simple exercise for you, it won't take an hour.

1. Quote Millette's criteria for ensuring he has the same material as chips a-d.

2. Compare the data Millette has with the data from chips a-d in Harrit et al. Cut and paste is easy.

e.g here is a photo of Harrit compared with Henyco and underneath is Millette

Look the same don't they? So do that for all data from chips a-d.

Compare the EDX for the red layer.
Compare the EDX for the gray layer.
Compare the shape and size of the particles in the red layer.
Compare the morphology of the matrix.
Compare the EDX for the particles in the red layer.

When you do that you will see they are the same.

Incidentally, Farrer doesn't know what material he put in the DSC. We have no idea whether he put Tnemec or Laclade or another red paint adhered to steel or indeed a completely different material - they never document what went in DSC. So until we know exactly what the composition of the cips that went in to the DSC test it would be pointless for Millette to do it.