Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

If only GZ had kept his fat ass in the truck. See how that works?

I'm thinking like Trayvon Truthers or Zimmermanistas. I find both distasteful.

I make no remarks about GZ's weight cuz I have been there, done that. I'll be happy to discuss eating disorders with you elsewhere. I have an in depth knowledge of several. I did say he was a short, fat man at some point in the other thread, I believe. That's the extent of my participation in mocking his weight. According to the booking sheet from the night of the killing, he was 5'7" and weighed 204 pounds. Some things speak for themselves.

I thought you said "Enough with the name calling crap" ?

I guess that meant everybody else, not you ?

And the hypocrisy, well that just speaks for itself.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I think another informative thought exercise is to consider what the police would have determined if they arrived on scene to find that both George and Trayvon had died. Trayvon from the gunshot, and George from a sudden aneurysm immediately after firing said gunshot (just as an example of how he could've died right at that moment.)

So, cops show up and they find these two people laying on the grass... what would they decide happened based only on what they could glean without benefit of Zimmerman's statements?

Well, they'd see that George had all the injuries, apart from the near-knuckle abrasion on TM and the gunshot of course...

They'd quickly figure out that George was the one who'd called their non emergency number shortly before, and they'd figure out that this must be the guy he described, since he fit the description, clothing, etc.

They'd talk to Witness 6, Witness 11, etc and piece together what happened...

and I think it would be very clear to them that it was a self-defense shooting.

So yea, I think it's helpful to consider angles like this, which eliminate any considerations about George's supposed "lies" and just boil it down purely to the other evidence.

 

[KatieG]

I thought you said "Enough with the name calling crap" ?

I guess that meant everybody else, not you ?

And the hypocrisy, well that just speaks for itself.

GZ is a short fat man, that's a fact. Actually, he doesn't really have a fat ass, it looks kinda flat.

And if you want to play the "go back and find old posts to play a game of gotcha", I'll let you know I have all the time in the world to do some searching on your posts so let's not go there, deal?

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, he did follow Martin. Briefly, and only in the sense that he went in the same direction Martin had gone in order to maintain a visual. He went to the next spot which would permit him to view southward, and hopefully see which way the person ran. Of course, when he got there he didn't actually see where Martin had gone. Either because it was dark, or Trayvon hid somewhere, or Trayvon just got too far south before George got to the "T" junction, or some combination of these things.

He didn't pursue him, or attempt to close the distance and come into direct contact with him. That's what most people wish to smuggle in with the word "follow" when they say it.

And yet the physical evidence doesn't match Zimmerman's account or your modified version of it.

Zimmerman claimed to be walking through the cut-through to find an address/street sign, and apparently to get a visual on the direction Martin ran.

This explains how he arrived at the T-intersection.

However, Zimmerman ended up some 40 - 50 feet south of the T-intersection away from any street sign or potential way to find an address, and in the direction he had seen Martin running.

The counter claim is that he somehow moved that distance during the altercation, despite the fact that Zimmerman claimed more than once he was hit and went to the ground with Martin immediately on top of him.

But for the sake of argument, let's say the discrepancy in distance can be accounted for by Zimmerman stumbling around or whatever.

The problem with that is Zimmerman claims to have been headed westward when the altercation began:

Zimmerman: And I started walking back to my car…
Serino: Um hum
Zimmerman: And that’s when he yelled out and I turned around.
Serino: How far away was he? Was he up on you already or…?
Zimmerman: (unintelligible)
Serino: Can’t tell.
Zimmerman: As soon as he did that I started backing up towards my car and that’s when I s…I wanted to call 911 instead of non-emergency.

So how does a guy backing away in a westward direction from an attacker approaching from the south then end up south from where he started?

Zimmerman lied. He followed Martin, and was still following him when the altercation began.

That's the clear and simple answer.

I now look forward to hearing the vague and convoluted one.

 

[KatieG]

How do you know where he was going ? Did you have a conversation with him ?

If he was going back to Tracy Martins mistresses condo townhouse, then why wasn't he back there long before GZ got off the phone with NEN ?

How long do you think it takes an average person to walk 300 feet ?

I don't know where he was going, but the evidence indicates it was not back to anyone house, but instead to wait for GZ.

No matter what, you can't resist the opportunity to take a dig at someone. The hypocrisy, it is strong.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Thought exercise:

You hear a fight going on in the next room, behind a closed door. Someone is screaming in what sounds like pain and fear. You try to go to open the door to open it, but it's locked. Several seconds later you finally manage to break the door down. The two individuals are now separated, one has blood coming out of his nose, and blood all over the back of his head.

The other has no wounds except for a scrape near his knuckle

For 100 points, who was screaming?

Not saying this is fool proof, but I do think you're swimming against the current of common sense if you don't think it was Zimmerman screaming.

By the way, in terms of evidence, I do consider these evidence of who was screaming:

1. Witness 6's first statement (the one that happened closest to the event)
2. Witness 6's interview with local news
3. George's statement that it was him
4. Police's determination that it was him
   [*]Tracy Martin saying it wasn't Trayvon
5. The injuries
6. The fact that GZ ended up firing his weapon. That goes well with the screams, as in... someone's harming me, I scream as a result, now I defend myself with my gun. The other interpretation requires GZ to be a monster. To execute someone who is "begging for their life" - I don't buy it. He may be a dumby, he doesn't seem like a monster.

You left out Serinos police report where he identifies that he believes it is GZ screaming.

KatieG has already pointed out that she understands why he might not have identified his sons voice, being grief stricken having just found out his son was dead. I can understand that.
What I can't understand is why he felt the need to lie about it later. Maybe KatieG can explain that.

But I think it's probably just like with GZ not knowing a street name, she simply doesn't belive GZ didn't know, and simply believes it was TM despite all the evidence to the contrary.

 

[johnny karate]

Next day/Wound had time (~16 hours) to heal - Previous night/Wound had maybe ~10 minutes to heal.

Wounds begin healing the instant they are received.

The observations made of the wound were in different stages of the healing process, and therefore aren't directly comparable.

Stitches are for wounds that won't stay closed on their own.

Wounds that stay closed on their own don't need stitches.

Zimmerman's wound stayed closed on its own, and therefore did not need stitches. As was noted in the medical report.

 

[KatieG]

You left out Serinos police report where he identifies that he believes it is GZ screaming.

KatieG has already pointed out that she understands why he might not have identified his sons voice, being grief stricken having just found out his son was dead. I can understand that.
What I can't understand is why he felt the need to lie about it later. Maybe KatieG can explain that.

But I think it's probably just like with GZ not knowing a street name, she simply doesn't belive GZ didn't know, and simply believes it was TM despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Simple answer, I don't know what Tracey Martin was thinking.

What evidence?

 

[johnny karate]

I'm sorry, I feel like you are the one who is being disingenuous by not admitting your claim that GZ lied about what the doctor told him, based on the technically prepared medical report supposedly contradicting what GZ says (which I feel I have sufficiently disputed) the doctor said to him, is flawed.

The only flaws and disingenuousness is the argumentation in which you grasp at any possibility to exonerate Zimmerman, regardless of its veracity or alignment with reality (Zimmerman's wounds required a butterfly bandage applied by his doctor). In short, you seem to make things up as you go.

I argue from the facts.

And the facts in this matter clearly indicate Zimmerman claimed something that the medical report contradicts.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No matter what, you can't resist the opportunity to take a dig at someone. The hypocrisy, it is strong.

I'm sorry, what is the correct term for the woman who a married man is dating ? Is it not mistress ?

 

[tsig]

You don't think a person has a right to defend their life if someone is attacking them and they can't get away? That's what I mean by "rightfully." George had the right to defend his life.



The position you're referring to is that Trayvon didn't have the right to assault George and sustain that assault for a prolonged period, in the face of George's obvious complete unwillingness to be involved in any sort of "fight" - as evidenced by screams including words like "stop" "help" and "no"

And you're saying that position is mind-boggling... interesting.



I don't think he "ran after that kid" as it is, but I believe he would have done the same things he did (other than shoot) without a gun.

So without a gun Z would be dead?

 

[phonebook]

Stitches are for wounds that won't stay closed on their own.

Do you think the EMTs were not aware of this?

Wounds that stay closed on their own don't need stitches.

Perhaps the EMT's didn't have the clairvoyance to determine that GZ's wounds would be "well-approximated" ~16 hours later.

Zimmerman's wound stayed closed on its own, and therefore did not need stitches. As was noted in the medical report.

Which was made the following day, ~16 hours after the EMT's said he probably did need stitches.

 

[tsig]

Yes, he did follow Martin. Briefly, and only in the sense that he went in the same direction Martin had gone in order to maintain a visual. He went to the next spot which would permit him to view southward, and hopefully see which way the person ran. Of course, when he got there he didn't actually see where Martin had gone. Either because it was dark, or Trayvon hid somewhere, or Trayvon just got too far south before George got to the "T" junction, or some combination of these things.

He didn't pursue him, or attempt to close the distance and come into direct contact with him. That's what most people wish to smuggle in with the word "follow" when they say it.

But yes, he did briefly follow Martin. He may even have picked up his pace a bit, but I do not think there's any reason to believe he "ran after" Trayvon.

Wind noises =/= running noises. And I hear no strain in GZ's voice when he says "Yeah" and "Okay" to indicate he's exerted himself at that point. It was the sound of the wind which tipped the dispatch off to the fact that George was out of his truck, not the sound of any heavy breathing, huffing and puffing, or footfalls. None of those sounds are present. I'm not saying wind and running can't both happen, of course they can. What I'm saying is, one doesn't indicate the other.

I'm basing most of what I'm saying here on George's testimony, which I haven't seen any good reason to disregard yet, because it seems to me to fit the evidence quite well other than a few minor issues which I think are attributable to trauma and a bad memory.

So, say what you will about what I think happened... but at least it's based on something. It's based on the person most intimately involved in all the events that night, start to finish, and what he says happened. It's augmented by the fact that his account matches physical and eyewitness evidence in several key ways.

Whereas theories about George catching up to Travyon, attempting to detain him, throwing the first punch (and apparently missing), having his firearm already out and waving it around... or using some sort of accomplice to flush his "quarry" from the south back to his position... or lying to dispatch before he was in any legal peril about where he was and where Trayvon was... all of these theories are not only silly, they are based on nothing whatsoever. They are founded on pure imagination and desire, and nothing more.

So do I think George followed Trayvon? Yea. Do I think he "ran after" Trayvon? No. Even if it could be demonstrated to me that he did "run after" Trayvon, I don't think there's evidence that this lasted more than a few seconds, or happened again after he said "okay" and I don't think there's evidence Trayvon could have known George did so.

ETA: I think the fact that he didn't see Trayvon when he got to the "T" junction is a strong indication he didn't run there.

Right, the best testimony in a murder is the murder suspect.

 

[Unabogie]

And yet the physical evidence doesn't match Zimmerman's account or your modified version of it.

Zimmerman claimed to be walking through the cut-through to find an address/street sign, and apparently to get a visual on the direction Martin ran.

This explains how he arrived at the T-intersection.

However, Zimmerman ended up some 40 - 50 feet south of the T-intersection away from any street sign or potential way to find an address, and in the direction he had seen Martin running.

The counter claim is that he somehow moved that distance during the altercation, despite the fact that Zimmerman claimed more than once he was hit and went to the ground with Martin immediately on top of him.

But for the sake of argument, let's say the discrepancy in distance can be accounted for by Zimmerman stumbling around or whatever.

The problem with that is Zimmerman claims to have been headed westward when the altercation began:


So how does a guy backing away in a westward direction from an attacker approaching from the south then end up south from where he started?

Zimmerman lied. He followed Martin, and was still following him when the altercation began.

That's the clear and simple answer.

I now look forward to hearing the vague and convoluted one.

That's another great find that further demonstrates that George was facing SOUTHWARDS at the time of the confrontation if you accept his version of the story as true.

He then claimed to be hit once and fall backwards IMMEDIATELY, about 50 feet from the eventual location of the majority of evidence and the body of the victim. So far there's been some question of what direction he was facing at the time, but this answers that question conclusively. There's just no way to square this initial story with the physical location of the evidence. The only conclusion is that George continued following Martin after hanging up, and either argued with him at the T and then followed him southward, or that the physical altercation started at the T but only included a punch and then Martin running. Either way, falling down at the T is impossible and he clearly lied about that.

Does anyone think he slid those 50 feet on his back?

 

[KatieG]

I'm sorry, what is the correct term for the women who a married man is dating ? Is it not mistress ?

Brandie Green is irrelevant in this case. Is there some reason you felt it necessary to take a cheap shot at her? If someone is separated but not divorced, does that make someone they are dating a mistress?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

The only flaws and disingenuousness is the argumentation in which you grasp at any possibility to exonerate Zimmerman, regardless of its veracity or alignment with reality (Zimmerman's wounds required a butterfly bandage applied by his doctor). In short, you seem to make things up as you go.

I argue from the facts.

And the facts in this matter clearly indicate Zimmerman claimed something that the medical report contradicts.

How can this be made any simpler for you?

1.) You accuse Zimmerman of lying because he says the doctor SAID something which wasn't on the written report. When he was asked what the doctor SAID not what she WROTE.

2.) The thing he claims the doctor said is perfectly in line with what two EMTs said the night before.

Yet you refuse to believe that the doctor may have framed things in the way Zimmerman claims, which is "the wounds could use stitches, but it's not strictly necessary and we can avoid it, which I'd prefer to do... by making sure to not mess with the wounds." (paraphrased)

Have you honestly never had a doctor frame something in that way for you?

What about a mechanic?

"You could use a new filter, but you could get by without it..." etc...

The mechanic might SAY to you as the two of you talk that it's okay to go without it, but the paperwork he gives you might still just show a simple written recommendation of changing out the filter.

Paperwork tends to be a more simplified format, sometimes even employing a sort of shorthand or code language. It's typically written in a way which is not conversational and not how people talk.

This really isn't that hard of a concept to understand. I can only imagine the reason you are struggling to grasp it, or pretending to struggle to grasp it... is that you're desperate to add another "GZ lie" to your list.

 

[johnny karate]

Do you think the EMTs were not aware of this?

Doctor > EMT

Perhaps the EMT's didn't have the clairvoyance to determine that GZ's wounds would be "well-approximated" ~16 hours later.

Which was made the following day, ~16 hours after the EMT's said he probably did need stitches.

So then what's your theory for how the wound was able to close on its own?

Magic?

Because we know it wasn't from stitches.

 

[Dancing David]

You don't think a person has a right to defend their life if someone is attacking them and they can't get away? That's what I mean by "rightfully." George had the right to defend his life.

And if that is what happened has been demonstrated?

 

[Dancing David]

I think you might be selling Zimmerman short.

He was perfectly willing to assault a law enforcement officer without being armed.

Still irrelevant.

 

[Rare Truth]

You pro-zee's can argue till you're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact Z didn't even need a bandaid, he refused to go to the hospital 3 times that night, and he didn't put even an ice pack on it that night.

But tarry on...