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Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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Hey! What about those of us who have more of a contralto range? (though admittedly I used to be a mezzo-sop, in my younger days). We wanna be fat ladies too - even while being slender as a willow reed. [qimg]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/rosysparkle/xlirt.gif[/qimg]

Jabba, do you realise how insulting it is to continually accuse scientists of bias towards a mediaeval date, when the very ethos of science is to put prejudice and pre-judgment aside and follow the actual evidence, wherever it leads?

And remember that on this very thread, people have chimed in and reported that prior to the information listed here, they had actually assumed the shroud to be a first century relic. Those neutral observers to whom you appealed earlier have read the thread and found the evidence conclusive - 14th century piece of art, fascinating in its own right in terms of both in its artistic and cultural significance, but not the 1st century burial cloth of Jesus which you so want it to be.

You are the one displaying bias because you are the one who begins with the conclusion and looks for the evidence to support it, ignoring the contrary evidence. Science starts with the evidence and goes where that leads - even if (especially if) that is something which leads to discarding everything that one believed. For a scientist, there is nothing more exciting than finding something which changes their worldview.
Agatha,
- I suspect that bias of scientists is an issue where we will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, scientists are just people and suffer the same sorts of temptations as the rest of us -- and, tend to be only slightly better at resisting their temptations than we are at resisting ours.
--- Jabba
 
Jabba said:
- I try to never say never, so it's hard for me to say that I've tossed the invisible patch theory entirely.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

I assume that almost anyone else -- with the evidence I now have -- would toss it entirely.
Well, since every expert anyone's cited--including you--dismisses the idea as simply stupid, yes. Anyone else with a shred of integrity and logic would dismiss it.

- But then, I did admit a little while back that I was 99% convinced that even if invisible re-weave was for some reason involved, it wouldn't have effected the dating anyway...
Only after we hammered on the fact that a rewoven patch would make our argument better. It makes your argument weaker, so of course you're dismissing it.

- What I'm suggesting now is that 1) some "patching" (a "patch" even) that wouldn't be seen by the naked eye has been identified by other means,
Peanut said:
How do you know?

Seriously--if all the experts who carefully examined the cloth missed it, how did you, someone who's never examined the cloth find it?

2) the chemistry of the sample was, one way or another, not representative of the greater cloth.
Prove it.

- I'm trying to describe, or allude to, an aspect of my personality that pretty much keeps me from dismissing any claim entirely...
And which you use to justify adhering to pet hypotheses long after they should have been dismissed.
 
Agatha,
- I suspect that bias of scientists is an issue where we will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, scientists are just people and suffer the same sorts of temptations as the rest of us -- and, tend to be only slightly better at resisting their temptations than we are at resisting ours.
--- Jabba

Except that YOU'VE risen above us scum, remember? :rolleyes:

Second, the scientists can be as biased as you want them to be--if the data support it, it's true. For example, I freely admit that I want T. rexes to be predators. The fact that the data pretty conclusively proves that they were means that it's true. My bias is irrelevant to the conversation--it simply doesn't matter that I'm biased, because the data make it true.

Prove the sample results were wrong. Nothing else is relevant to the C14 dating.
 
Ward,

- Glad to be considered a colleague.

- I guess that I'm not explaining myself very well.

- I try to never say never, so it's hard for me to say that I've tossed the invisible patch theory entirely. I assume that almost anyone else -- with the evidence I now have -- would toss it entirely.
- But then, I did admit a little while back that I was 99% convinced that even if invisible re-weave was for some reason involved, it wouldn't have effected the dating anyway...
- In other words, I didn't mean to say, or imply, that I was ignoring my own research.

- What I'm suggesting now is that 1) some "patching" (a "patch" even) that wouldn't be seen by the naked eye has been identified by other means, and that 2) the chemistry of the sample was, one way or another, not representative of the greater cloth.

- I'll get to your last paragraph above if necessary -- but first, I would like to make sure that I'm now actually communicating. Did that help any?

--- Jabba

Please do address my final paragraph. It's ultimately the most important. I understand that you have dismissed (at least 99% dismissed) the "invisible" patch theory*. But now you seem to be supporting a "visible" patch theory. I see no patch in photographs, neither do you, I think. Neither had anyone else before the sample was taken. That doesn't sound "visible" to me. Still trying to understand.

Ward

*One of the things that seems to be frustrating people here is that you did seem to accept that the invisible patch theory could not be supported, but then you keep referencing articles that support that theory. It's hard to have it both ways.
 
1) there were too many egos in the kitchen;

3) even scientists tend to be significantly biased and hard-headed.

I'm ignoring the rest of the post because I don't think it's relevant, but I take serious exception to the two quotes I left above, for many reasons, but I'll only talk about the main reason I take exception to them.

Jabba, from the posts that you have made in this thread it is glaringly obvious that you don't understand science, you don't understand how it works, you don't understand experimental design, you don't understand statistics, and most of all you don't understand how scientists think.

So let me walk you through a few things.

Scientists have egos. Yes, of course they do, everyone does, and just like in every walk of life some of the biggest egos are found in people who rise to the top of their particular field or organisation. However, scientists' egos are funny things, because generally speaking a scientist makes a name for themselves by rigorous and well conducted research that produces peer reviewed publications time after time. The scientists with the biggest egos are usually the ones who are most imaginative (because good science needs an imagination), most self-critical (because good science needs to come from a rigorous study of possible problems), and most receptive to the criticism of others (because good science needs open and frank exchanges of ideas).

Let me tell you a little story to illustrate this point. Just before I started my PhD there was a week long meeting for all the new Astronomy PhD students about to start their courses. It was a chance to meet our peers and get to know a few of the bigger names in UK Astronomy. We had talks from several big names, many of whom had big egos. The one I remember most was a planetary scientist who went on at some length, in a booming baritone voice, about his latest theory on the formation of Mars. I won't bore you with the details, but suffice to say it was a pretty whacky idea, and he seemed, while he was talking about it, that he had absolutely no doubt of its veracity. After about 20 minutes he concluded his talk by turning to face us, pausing for a few seconds and then booming, "Of course, I could be completely wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, and it certainly won't be the last, but that's what makes science fun!"

This man, with an ego the size of Rigel, was perfectly happy to be wrong.

And therein lies the biggest difference between most scientists with big egos and the rest of the world's big egos. For a scientist having a big ego means that you take huge pride in your ability to test theories and follow the results, regardless of whether it proves you wrong or right.

Of course, there are a few scientists whose egos are based on their view that they are always right, but these types are few and far between and quickly lose the respect of their peers. The most striking thing about a roomful of scientists who work on the same discipline is that the vast majority are eager to hear each others ideas and opinions and any given conference will produce new collaborative projects.

Scientists love bouncing ideas off each other and arguing the minutiae of the latest theory. They also love to challenge others in their field and have their own ideas challenged. I haven't been to a single conference in my career that didn't include a talk where someone in the audience called out, "I tried that last year and it didn't work" (or something similar). The result is that the speaker and the heckler will invariably be seen later that day huddled in a corner talking over why it didn't work and how it might be made to work.

There's no resentment about having your theory questioned. After all, that's the whole point of doing science.

So that's the ego crap taken care of, but what about the bias and hard-headedness? Well, I guess the hard-headed thing is also covered above, so let's just focus on the bias thing.

First I feel that I must point out that bias has a very specific meaning in science, and it isn't what you mean when you use the term. No, you use the word bias to mean that people expect a particular outcome before any testing is done. In this case, yes, every single scientist in the world is biased. However, to a scientist the word bias has a very different meaning - it is something that systematically changes the results of an experiment in one, and only one, direction. For instance, in Astronomy there's a well known bias called the Lutz-Kelker bias, which affects distance measurements. The Lutz-Kelker bias is simply that the distance to an object measured by parallax will tend to be underestimated rather than overestimated. The cause is well understood and can be corrected for (sort of) by application of statistical error bars on the measured data.

In the case of the Shroud the measurements are done by 14C radiometric dating, and while there may be biases on the measurements (Dinwar would know far better than me what they might be) by applying rigorous testing techniques any personal biases are rendered irrelevant.

Similarly, when I measure the distance to a star the numbers are what they are, regardless of what I think they ought to be. If they seem too large to me I might remeasure them to be sure, but I won't alter them. My personal bias is irrelevant, because in the end I don't actually care. I have no vested interest in a particular distance for a particular star. If I fiddle the data in order to make a star appear more intriguing or interesting then it's almost an ironclad guarantee that someone else will come along and take other measurements and find that I was wrong.

It's possible that someone in one of the labs fiddled the results in order to produce a 14th century date, but the likelihood of it happening in all three independent labs, and having them produce three consistent results, is infinitesimal. This is because personal biases are not systematic. No two people will fiddle the results by the same amount, so getting three to do so independently is patently absurd, particularly when you consider that the measured date is so far from the expected date were the shroud really a 1st century artifact. Plus, we're not talking about individuals, plenty of people at all three labs would have seen the raw data, and would know if the results had been altered. So that theory just doesn't fly. The only way it would work was if everyone who had access to the raw data was in on a conspiracy to alter the results and had agreed to give consistent (but slightly different) dates. Again, the likelihood is practically zero.

So, in a nutshell, your contention that the egos or personal biases of the scientists involved somehow affected the outcome of the carbon dating at all three labs by the same amount has about as much validity as the theory that I'm an octopus that can fly a helicopter and play the harmonica while farting the national anthem of Botswana. I.e. none.
 
Olowkow,
- I didn't say that I believed that I'm the only thing that exists -- I just don't know that I'm not.
- I'm trying to describe, or allude to, an aspect of my personality that pretty much keeps me from dismissing any claim entirely...
--- Jabba

I don't know that I'm not the only thing that exists, but I don't spend much time seriously considering the possibility, or letting it affect my judgement.

If this is how you manage your life, then I wonder how you ever make an important decision.
 
wollery said:
In the case of the Shroud the measurements are done by 14C radiometric dating, and while there may be biases on the measurements (Dinwar would know far better than me what they might be) by applying rigorous testing techniques any personal biases are rendered irrelevant.
Hm...

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few.

First, what was technically measured is the point at which the threads were cut from whatever plant it was they were cut from, adjusted for any alteration from stuff applied to it (organic dyes, oils, that sort of thing). If the fibers were put into water, that could affect the results a bit--water can wash away soluble materials, and C14 would be slightly heavier than C12 or C13, which would make it harder to disolve. I'd be astonished if the effects of that were measurable, however.

A more significant bias would be from loss of daughter atoms (which always happens with C14, and so we don't even look for them; we compare the amount of C14 against the amount of other elements, and against known ratios for those pairs). Heating it could have caused additional loss--but again, SOPs are to adjust for that automatically.

The biggest problem with C14 is always, always, always calibration. C14 is cosmogenic, meaning that how much is in the environment depends on the amount of cosmic radiation (overwhelmingly from the Sun) coming into the atmosphere. Well, in either the 13th or 1st century that was true--now radioactivity from nuclear explosions is a factor that requires consideration, but unless the bomb went off next to the shroud it wouldn't impact the shroud date (and if it did, it'd neatly solve the issue by turning the shroud into vapor). Anyway, researchers have calibrated C14 dates by using dendochronology--basically, they measured the C14 age for rings, counting backwards through time, giving us a remarkably accurate calibration curve to well before the start of civilization.

The lab biases--basically, biases introduced by the lab techniques--are stuff I'd have to look up. I'm up on the geology aspects of it, but I've treated the reactor itself as something of a black box. I learned the theories, but haven't looked at it for a while. There are some, but again, they're fairly standard and easy enough to measure and address.
 
...an aspect of my personality that pretty much keeps me from dismissing any claim entirely...
--- Jabba

I agree. So, did you manage to entirely dismiss the claim that Islam is the one true religion yet? What was your evidence? ;)

I'm convinced that you have known the shroud is fake for quite some time. It's just very difficult to let it go.
 
Hey! What about those of us who have more of a contralto range? (though admittedly I used to be a mezzo-sop, in my younger days). We wanna be fat ladies too - even while being slender as a willow reed. ...

Tell me about your nail polish and I'll tell you if you're a Fat Ladytm
[qimg]https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRaOXyWaBcX5Vvq0PPowttSQWtIzrVPfbp3rx-rLAZMU8nkbKzV[/qimg]

A classic Fat Ladytm.

Another Fat Ladytm

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


...I'll confess that I'm having trouble understanding that the patch was not "invisible" but was somehow missed by everyone. If later examination of threads from the sample area were obviously not representative of the shroud as a whole, then the patch should have been obviously visible. I just do not understand what you are trying to say. I assume you have thought this through and are trying to reconcile your research on the patch with date of the shroud. Please give the explanation one more try, because I'm not getting it.

Ward

Ward,

- Glad to be considered a colleague.

- I guess that I'm not explaining myself very well.

- I try to never say never, so it's hard for me to say that I've tossed the invisible patch theory entirely. I assume that almost anyone else -- with the evidence I now have -- would toss it entirely.
- But then, I did admit a little while back that I was 99% convinced that even if invisible re-weave was for some reason involved, it wouldn't have effected the dating anyway...
- In other words, I didn't mean to say, or imply, that I was ignoring my own research.

- What I'm suggesting now is that 1) some "patching" (a "patch" even) that wouldn't be seen by the naked eye has been identified by other means, and that 2) the chemistry of the sample was, one way or another, not representative of the greater cloth.

- I'll get to your last paragraph above if necessary -- but first, I would like to make sure that I'm now actually communicating. Did that help any?

--- Jabba

Of course you're a colleague, Jabba. You're a member of the forum.
Still, no patch has been identified by 'other means'.
Remember about the chain of custody?
What has led you to think so?
 
Agatha,
- I suspect that bias of scientists is an issue where we will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, scientists are just people and suffer the same sorts of temptations as the rest of us -- and, tend to be only slightly better at resisting their temptations than we are at resisting ours.
--- Jabba

Oh, Rich...

Do you have any clue how petty and dishonest this is?

There are, indeed, fraudulent scientists (Cyril Burt leaps to mind, as does Trophim Lysenko). How do you suppose they are found out and exposed?

The charge of scientific fraud, or intellectual dishonesty, should be based on evidence: the fact that no one else can repeat the results, or that the reported results and the observed results are different, or that data can be demonstrated to be fabricated, or some other indication of less-than-straightforward dealings.

Your veiled accusations that all three labs that dated the samples taken from the cloth must be, or at least probably are, guilty of fraud, deceit, or incompetence are not, however,based upon evidence, but upon your disappointment that the labs came up with the "wrong" answer, not the answer you want to be true--and that you decided was supposed to be true before you even began to look at the evidence.

Your rejection of the anatomical impossibility of the "Shroud SlouchTM" is not based on evidence, or even investigation, but upon your disappointment that testing the position of the artistic image on the cloth produces the "wrong" answer--so you reject evidence, and accept unfounded assurance that the shoulders of the "body" would have been "naturally raised" (the unfounded assertion offered by the "people on your side"--did they ever tell you why the shoulders would be "naturally raised"?--what do they say about the antigravity hair and the "blood" flowing horizontally through it?).

I am sad for you that you cannot see this fundamental difference. You have your conclusion--the cloth must be the "True ShroudTM"--and the facts, the evidence, must be interpreted in such a way as to demonstrate the conclusion you have already reached.

Instead, what you should have done, what you should be doing, is looking at the evidence. Cloth does not transmute into gold. No such thing as "resurrection energy" has ever been demonstrated. All physical examination done by those who have actually handled the cloth indicates that the sample area is, in fact, representative of the entire cloth--did you notice your boy Rogers claiming that the "samples" he tested were colored with a pigment not commonly used until the 12th century? The image on the medieval artifact is anatomically incorrect, in an anatomically impossible posture, with physically anomalous features and historically and textually inaccurate details...

And the cloth was dated by three independent labs to a date well within the range of error for the technique.

Deal with the evidence.
 
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I suspect that bias of scientists is an issue where we will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, scientists are just people and suffer the same sorts of temptations as the rest of us -- and, tend to be only slightly better at resisting their temptations than we are at resisting ours.
It is not only true that scientists are as likely to be biased as everybody else but scientists know it to be true, which is why they invented the scientific method to eliminate the effect of those biases.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how the scientists' biases could have led them to not properly test, and hence get the wrong date for, the shroud sample and yet properly test and get the right date for all the control samples when they didn't know which was which.
 
has about as much validity as the theory that I'm an octopus that can fly a helicopter and play the harmonica while farting the national anthem of Botswana. I.e. none.
Damn, there's yet another bet I've apparently lost













Kudos on the rest of that post
 
Good post wollery, too bad it will fall on deaf hears or rather blind eye. You know the expression, "there is no worst blind than the one which don't want to see", and since Jabba seems to eb rather deep into blind-faith that the shroud is real relic no matter what we say, refute, or even demonstrate. Short of divine intervention he will never ever move from his position.

But the lurker can take notes ;).
 
- I guess that I'm not explaining myself very well.

The ridiculous formatting of your posts doesn't help.

- I try to never say never, so it's hard for me to say that I've tossed the invisible patch theory entirely.

That's ridiculous. It's like saying we still consider it possible that the sun revolves around the Earth or that Aether exists.

- In other words, I didn't mean to say, or imply, that I was ignoring my own research.

You haven't done research.

- I suspect that bias of scientists is an issue where we will have to agree to disagree.

That's even more ridiculous. You can't explain how or why you think there's a bias, it's only a hunch, but somehow we'll have to agree to disagree ? Do you really think the two opinions are equivalent ?
 
Ward,

- Glad to be considered a colleague.

- I guess that I'm not explaining myself very well.
- I try to never say never, so it's hard for me to say that I've tossed the invisible patch theory entirely. I assume that almost anyone else -- with the evidence I now have -- would toss it entirely.
- But then, I did admit a little while back that I was 99% convinced that even if invisible re-weave was for some reason involved, it wouldn't have effected the dating anyway...
- In other words, I didn't mean to say, or imply, that I was ignoring my own research.

- What I'm suggesting now is that 1) some "patching" (a "patch" even) that wouldn't be seen by the naked eye has been identified by other means, and that 2) the chemistry of the sample was, one way or another, not representative of the greater cloth.

- I'll get to your last paragraph above if necessary -- but first, I would like to make sure that I'm now actually communicating. Did that help any?

--- Jabba

Oh, I don't know. I think you made yourself perfectly clear. You are willing to make scurrilous accusations about the scientists involved in order to discredit the 14C dating evidence. Your conduct these last few pages is reprehensible.


For the record, I have also done 14C dating, and I can tell you don't know what you're talking about.
 
I don't know that I'm not the only thing that exists, but I don't spend much time seriously considering the possibility, or letting it affect my judgement.

If this is how you manage your life, then I wonder how you ever make an important decision.
Humots,

- It isn't easy.

- I got out of the Army as a Captain in the Infantry. But, it's a good thing that I didn't have to lead a platoon, or company into battle -- it took me much too long to make up my mind about the next course of action. (I think it was Davey Crockett who said, "First, be sure you're right; then go ahead!" Even back then (the 50's?), I was wondering how he could be sure he was right.)
- I avoided that problem by being mostly a helicopter pilot where my decisions were much simpler.
- I realized in Officer Basic Training that I just wasn't cut out to be a Platoon Leader...

- I don't spend much time seriously considering the solipsist possibility, or letting it affect my judgement either. I'm just trying to point out how wimpish I am about dismissing a claim altogether, and why I can't seem to simply toss the possibility of "invisible re-weaving'' being involved in our sample.
- For our purposes here, I'll say that for all intents and purposes, I'm convinced that invisible re-weaving did not distort the dating in this case.

--- Jabba
 
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It is not only true that scientists are as likely to be biased as everybody else but scientists know it to be true, which is why they invented the scientific method to eliminate the effect of those biases.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how the scientists' biases could have led them to not properly test, and hence get the wrong date for, the shroud sample and yet properly test and get the right date for all the control samples when they didn't know which was which.
Pixel,
- I think that everyone involved accepts that the control samples were not effective.
--- Jabba
 
Agatha,
- I suspect that bias of scientists is an issue where we will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, scientists are just people and suffer the same sorts of temptations as the rest of us -- and, tend to be only slightly better at resisting their temptations than we are at resisting ours.
--- Jabba



You would like to dismiss it by saying that we just have to disagree, but you are in no position to dismiss science on any such basis, because you have no actual experience of working as a research scientist (and certainly not in C14 dating), and I suspect you have no real science qualifications either.

However, that's the reason why science uses a genuine research standard peer-review process (unlike the fake peer-review process created by religious fanatics for their own self-published journals). That is - whatever bias any individual scientists may have, that is largely eliminated by the need to satisfy the peer review board with the neutrality and objectivity of the science they are presenting ...

... you will not get any of your papers published unless the data can be confirmed and the conclusions properly supported by existing scientific theory.
 
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Pixel,
- I think that everyone involved accepts that the control samples were not effective.
--- Jabba

I wasn't aware of this - on what grounds does 'everyone involved' think the control samples were ineffective? And, surely you must then be able to quote some of them saying so?
 
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