What exactly makes an Assault Weapon an Assault Weapon in the first place?

[Jrrarglblarg]

Re: Gun shows. Could be something I'm missing. Sorry if I'm getting this wrong.

It would seem that "gun show" is the number 1 priority of the ATF. Still without a director of course.

If you otherwise start a business without a proper license they damn sure will show up very often if not most of the time. So yeah, that's what I would expect. More importantly, a person who sold such a weapon that was later used in a crime could be both civil and criminally exposed.

I can't sell my car without the proper paperwork. If I do and someone dies from an accident caused by someone else I'm in for a world of hurt. Why all of a sudden is it that it's impossible to sell a gun by following simple rules?

It appears you are not reading my actual posts, but responding to what you think I'm saying.

I'm not opposed to the paper work because it's a pain, I'm opposed to the State of Colorado legislating a mandate for private citizens to engage a background check for person-to-person firearms sales without any control point because it's stupid and people won't do it, creating law enforcement and judicial work to micromanage otherwise law abiding gun owner that will have zero effect on crime and violence.

BTW, if I sell you my car in Colorado all I'm legally required to do is sign the back of the title and enter the current number on the odometer. No bill of sale required, no notary public, no receipt. The control point for this minimal requirement is when you present the old title .

Firearms in Colorado are not registered, insured, or licensed. Nor are owners. The legislation is unenforceable.

 

[RandFan]

It appears you are not reading my actual posts, but responding to what you think I'm saying.

I'm not opposed to the paper work because it's a pain, I'm opposed to the State of Colorado legislating a mandate for private citizens to engage a background check for person-to-person firearms sales without any control point because it's stupid and people won't do it, creating law enforcement and judicial work to micromanage otherwise law abiding gun owner that will have zero effect on crime and violence.

BTW, if I sell you my car in Colorado all I'm legally required to do is sign the back of the title and enter the current number on the odometer. No bill of sale required, no notary public, no receipt. The control point for this minimal requirement is when you present the old title .

Firearms in Colorado are not registered, insured, or licensed. Nor are owners. The legislation is unenforceable.

Nothing really to respond to. Your post is a bunch of assertions. If people were put in jail for failing to fill out paperwork if and and when their weapon is used in a crime then they will start. It took the same arrests and convictions as drunk driving and a million other laws.

Straw sales are a serious part of the problem we are trying to stop. Anyone can say that a law is unenforceable but that's just an argument by assertion.

You aren't advancing the discussion. Your points are almost entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Could you possible provide something substantive? I know people like to think of themselves as ultimate authorities and everyone should just accept what they feed them but this is still a skeptics site. Your opinion is fine but it's hardly compelling.

Thanks though, I guess.

 

[RandFan]

I forgot my source. Sorry.

INSIDE STRAW PURCHASING: How Criminals Get Guns Illegally

[FONT=&quot]“Virtually every crime gun in the United States starts off as a legal firearm,” according to then-Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) director Bradley Buckles in 2000. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In a 1997 report, the ATF looked at how guns then “pass through the legitimate distribution system of federally licensed firearms dealers” before ending up in the hands of criminals. The ATF con- cluded, in part, that, “there is a large problem of diversion to the illegal market from licensed gun establishments.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When a gun is recovered in a crime, the ATF can use the serial number on the gun to trace back to where it first left the legal market - tracing from the first sale of the firearm by an importer or manufacturer, to the wholesaler or retailer, to the first retail purchaser. In some cases, that first retail purchaser is the link between the legal and illegal markets. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Looking at trace information from 1998, the ATF found that “a small group of dealers accounts for a disproportionately large number of crime gun traces.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]More than 85 percent of dealers in the U.S. had no crime guns traced to them at all in 1998, while about 1 percent of licensed firearm dealers accounted for 57 percent of traces that same year. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The ATF also con- cluded that “sales volume alone cannot be said to account for the disproportionately large num- ber of traces associated with those dealers.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT]

 

[jimbob]

You not only wouldn't want to fire lots of bullets at a time, but also would put a higher priority on accuracy, and for that, I'm told that bolt action is better than semi-automatic or automatic, and longer barrels are better than medium/short, so that's two ways in which an assault rifle would be worse than ideal for hunting, even before taking into account the extra mechanical complexity and its costs and maintenance/repair complications.

Also true. Assuming that hunters want clean kills, you are really only going to be able to have one shot per shooting opportunity.

 

[jimbob]

I forgot my source. Sorry.

INSIDE STRAW PURCHASING: How Criminals Get Guns Illegally

[FONT=&quot]“Virtually every crime gun in the United States starts off as a legal firearm,” according to then-Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) director Bradley Buckles in 2000. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In a 1997 report, the ATF looked at how guns then “pass through the legitimate distribution system of federally licensed firearms dealers” before ending up in the hands of criminals. The ATF con- cluded, in part, that, “there is a large problem of diversion to the illegal market from licensed gun establishments.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When a gun is recovered in a crime, the ATF can use the serial number on the gun to trace back to where it first left the legal market - tracing from the first sale of the firearm by an importer or manufacturer, to the wholesaler or retailer, to the first retail purchaser. In some cases, that first retail purchaser is the link between the legal and illegal markets. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Looking at trace information from 1998, the ATF found that “a small group of dealers accounts for a disproportionately large number of crime gun traces.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]More than 85 percent of dealers in the U.S. had no crime guns traced to them at all in 1998, while about 1 percent of licensed firearm dealers accounted for 57 percent of traces that same year. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The ATF also con- cluded that “sales volume alone cannot be said to account for the disproportionately large num- ber of traces associated with those dealers.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT]

I might as well cross post this, giving some more figures:

Straw purchases are important, and criminal guns tend to be newish...

The data in the following report suggests that making someone liable for their gun up to a legal transfer of ownership or five-years after they report it lost/stolen would affect a significant number of criminal guns.
Crime Gun Risk Factors: Buyer, Seller, Firearm, and Transaction Characteristics Associated with Gun Trafficking and Criminal Gun Use
Report to the National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice
By
Christopher S. Koper
(With Contributions by Mary Shelley)
2007 (PDF)

The full extent of straw purchasing cannot be determined from available data, 4 but it appears to be a fairly common supply mechanism for criminals and juveniles. A survey of juveniles incarcerated in four states, for instance, revealed that a third had asked someone, most commonly a family member or friend, to buy a gun for them at a retail outlet at some point in the past (Sheley and Wright, 1993:6). Another rough indicator is the share of crime guns that are new but that have changed hands at least once. To illustrate, approximately one quarter of guns confiscated by police are less than three years old, and most of these are recovered from persons other than the original buyers (Cook and Braga, 2001:294-295); this implies that many of these guns were diverted from the primary market via straw purchasing and other means.

Responsible gun owners who take adequate precautions should have little problem.

 

[Cleon]

"Assault riffle" sounds like what my dog does after eating Pupperoni.

It certainly causes humans to flee the room in horror...

 

[RandFan]

I might as well cross post this, giving some more figures:

Straw purchases are important, and criminal guns tend to be newish...

Thank you.

 

[Nessie]

.......

Firearms in Colorado are not registered, insured, or licensed. Nor are owners. The legislation is unenforceable.

Do you mean it is unenforceable because the legislation is badly done and really cannot be enforced, or because there is no will to enforce it?

 

[RandFan]

Do you mean it is unenforceable because the legislation is badly done and really cannot be enforced, or because there is no will to enforce it?

I understand that the GOP strategy is to demand that law enforcement enforce existing laws but then to make those laws difficult to enforce. I don't know that is a fact but there is some interesting evidence.

On the ATF Director, or the conspicuous lack of same

Must-see: Jon Stewart exposes how the NRA & GOP PREVENT the ATF from enforcing current gun laws

You see, about 10 years ago, a Congressman stuck an amendment into a federal spending bill that severely restricted the ATF's ability to do what the NRA says they want them to do, which is enforce existing gun laws! It allowed dealers to ignore police requests for assistance. It denied Congress formerly public crime gun data. It ended the oversight of used firearm sales. It required the destruction of background check records within 24 hours, you know, to make sure no mistakes could be corrected!
Who did this? What Congressman jammed this amendment into an unrelated spending bill, completely castrating the ATF's ability to enforce existing gun laws?

PETER JOHNSON, JR. (7/19/2011): It was the amendment named with your name, Tiahrt.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Can anyone tell me if a riffle and a rifle are more or less the same thing?

That would sure clear up a few of the posts up there.

 

[RandFan]

Gallup: Americans Back Obama's Proposals to Address Gun Violence

Quinnipiac: Support For Universal Gun Background Checks Is 92%

CBS News: Poll: On deficit, immigration, guns, public in sync with Obama

 

[BStrong]

I forgot my source. Sorry.

Looking at trace information from 1998, the ATF found that “a small group of dealers accounts for a disproportionately large number of crime gun traces

[/B]

As far as this goes, that "small group" of dealers also tend to be the highest retail volume sale dealers as well.

 

[Nessie]

I understand that the GOP strategy is to demand that law enforcement enforce existing laws but then to make those laws difficult to enforce. I don't know that is a fact but there is some interesting evidence.

On the ATF Director, or the conspicuous lack of same

Must-see: Jon Stewart exposes how the NRA & GOP PREVENT the ATF from enforcing current gun laws

So there is a group who want to sabotage gun control laws?

 

[jimbob]

So there is a group who want to sabotage gun control laws?

And oddly enough it is the NRA, but we know from posters on JREF that it isn't too influential, so that's OK.

 

[GeeMack]

So there is a group who want to sabotage gun control laws?

Yes. Not an especially organized group. They are trying to initiate bans based on arbitrary criteria, add restrictions which are designed to reduce law abiding citizens access to their guns, require gun owners to have insurance based on special pleading and fear mongering, that sort of thing.

But the topic here is "what exactly makes an assault weapon an assault weapon?" We've pretty much determined that in tangible terms, there is no objective answer. It's a term used primarily for political expedience, to make some guns which have certain cosmetic criteria seem extra scary.

 

[Chuck Guiteau]

[qimg]http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5801/backgroundpolls.jpg[/qimg]

Gallup: Americans Back Obama's Proposals to Address Gun Violence

Quinnipiac: Support For Universal Gun Background Checks Is 92%

CBS News: Poll: On deficit, immigration, guns, public in sync with Obama

Liberal:How do you feel about universal background checks.
Conservative: I'm Ok with that. It sounds sensible.
Liberal: Then why do you oppose universal background checks?
Conservative: I don't. I'm in favor of it.
Liberal: What's wrong with you people? Are you some kind of gun worshipping, militant psycho who believes every one should just be able to walk out into the street and purchase a firearm?
Conservative: No, absolutely not. I'm in favor of background checks.
Liberal: This is why we need to get rid of guns. People like you don't want any restrictions on them.

P.S. Just picked you because you were the latest poster to present this non-issue.

 

[RandFan]

Liberal:How do you feel about universal background checks.
Conservative: I'm Ok with that. It sounds sensible.
Liberal: Then why do you oppose universal background checks?
Conservative: I don't. I'm in favor of it.
Liberal: What's wrong with you people? Are you some kind of gun worshipping, militant psycho who believes every one should just be able to walk out into the street and purchase a firearm?
Conservative: No, absolutely not. I'm in favor of background checks.
Liberal: This is why we need to get rid of guns. People like you don't want any restrictions on them.

P.S. Just picked you because you were the latest poster to present this non-issue.

The post you responded to wouldn't have even existed if ApolloGnomon hadn't bitched about background checks.

I'm not in the habit of manufacturing controversy.

 

[jimbob]

Liberal:How do you feel about universal background checks.
Conservative: I'm Ok with that. It sounds sensible.
Liberal: Then why do you oppose universal background checks?
Conservative: I don't. I'm in favor of it.
Liberal: What's wrong with you people? Are you some kind of gun worshipping, militant psycho who believes every one should just be able to walk out into the street and purchase a firearm?
Conservative: No, absolutely not. I'm in favor of background checks.
Liberal: This is why we need to get rid of guns. People like you don't want any restrictions on them.

P.S. Just picked you because you were the latest poster to present this non-issue.

Except that the NRA is influential in Washington at least

Would you say that Tiahrt is Conservative, and do you agree with the Tiahrt amendment?

 

[RandFan]

Liberal:How do you feel about universal background checks.
Conservative: I'm Ok with that. It sounds sensible.
Liberal: Then why do you oppose universal background checks?
Conservative: I don't. I'm in favor of it.
Liberal: What's wrong with you people? Are you some kind of gun worshipping, militant psycho who believes every one should just be able to walk out into the street and purchase a firearm?
Conservative: No, absolutely not. I'm in favor of background checks.
Liberal: This is why we need to get rid of guns. People like you don't want any restrictions on them.

P.S. Just picked you because you were the latest poster to present this non-issue.

I apologize, the last link I provided was not specific about the issue.

My beef with background checks for private sales is I think it's a waste of legislative time that won't prevent crime and will result in a waste of law enforcement resources. There is absolutely no way to enforce this under the current structure. There's no control-point at which compliance can be monitored and enforced. And don't say "gun shows" because that's a small fraction of the total non-commercial gun sales. I've bought and sold guns person-to-person several times. I sold one to a friend, another to a relative, I bought one through a classified ad and recently sold two things I didn't want anymore using Armslist.com. Is Armslist going to be "illegal" in Colorado now? How the hell is that going to work? Will city cops be required to go into laundromats and arrest anyone with a "gun for sale" 3x5 card on the bulletin board?

While I agree it is a non issue for >90% there are a few out there still complaining about background checks. Yeah, they are the minority but that does not make it a non-issue. With >90% of the US population behind background checks I think many forget the power of the minority when they have the gun lobby behind them.

I give background checks less than a 50% chance of passing because quite frankly the GOP really does not give a damn about public sentiment. Public sentiment doesn't put dollars into their campaigns. The gun lobby does. The GOP stands on principle and they get their principles from their donors. NOT their average constituents. They couldn't give a damn about them.

 

[a_unique_person]

Liberal:How do you feel about universal background checks.
Conservative: I'm Ok with that. It sounds sensible.
Liberal: Then why do you oppose universal background checks?
Conservative: I don't. I'm in favor of it.
Liberal: What's wrong with you people? Are you some kind of gun worshipping, militant psycho who believes every one should just be able to walk out into the street and purchase a firearm?
Conservative: No, absolutely not. I'm in favor of background checks.
Liberal: This is why we need to get rid of guns. People like you don't want any restrictions on them.

P.S. Just picked you because you were the latest poster to present this non-issue.

The background check is easily circumvented, legally. Just go to a gun show, buy whatever you want. The background check also ignores the large number of murders done by people would pass a background check. For example, most school killings, and killings of friends and family by people in the heat of the moment in an argument. Many killers are first time offenders.

Tough on crime is also a dead end. The USA has by far the highest percentage prison population in the 'western' world. Yet crime continues. Many murders are done without regard to the consequences.